Lancaster Green Ayre - The Barn Owls have returned.

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

Hi Bill and Jamie

 

As far as I can make out the Royal Tank Corps didn't adopt the black overalls until the 1930s, Wikipedia gives 1935 as date when they paraded before the king in them.  The wearing of the black beret for all ranks wasn't authorised until 1925. So WW1 uniforms would have been the order of the day, just very neatly ironed if interwar photos are anything to go by.

 

I was on detachment to 1 RTR in the 70s, I was helping their gun fitter with some mods to the turrets of the Scorpion tanks. I was traversing the turret on one when I saw some black berets through the gunners sight. So I shouted "Turret traversing get your f'ing heads out the way". Next thing I could hear someone climbing up on the tank and through the commander hatch appeared the Regimental Sergeant Major's head, all be it upside down. "Next time you tell the colonel to get his f'ing head out the way remember to say SIR".

Thanks for that Clive.   There was a manikin in the tank museum wearing khaki overalls.  I suspect that the delivery crew would be the same, probably using surplus wartime stock.  The layout is set 1923 ish so I'll go with that.  I'm doing the tank with all the hatches open and will probably park the 1:35 one in the station forecourt near the front of the layout with it's sponsons swung out and the crew round it as if they've got it unloaded and are getting ready to drive it off up Cable Street towards the castle.   A couple of policemen for traffic control wouldn't come amiss.  I just need to find some figures that look about right. Thinking about it there are quite a few figures in boiler suits available.

 

Jamie

[Clive Mortimore]

39 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Thanks for that Clive.   There was a manikin in the tank museum wearing khaki overalls.  I suspect that the delivery crew would be the same, probably using surplus wartime stock.  The layout is set 1923 ish so I'll go with that.  I'm doing the tank with all the hatches open and will probably park the 1:35 one in the station forecourt near the front of the layout with it's sponsons swung out and the crew round it as if they've got it unloaded and are getting ready to drive it off up Cable Street towards the castle.   A couple of policemen for traffic control wouldn't come amiss.  I just need to find some figures that look about right. Thinking about it there are quite a few figures in boiler suits available.

 

Jamie

Hi Jamie

 

I have just double checked my dates, in Brian Davis' book British Army Uniforms and Insignia of world War Two and he gives the wearing of the beret as 1924, that is still outside your time line.

[Mike Storey]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Thanks for that Clive.   There was a manikin in the tank museum wearing khaki overalls.  I suspect that the delivery crew would be the same, probably using surplus wartime stock.  The layout is set 1923 ish so I'll go with that.  I'm doing the tank with all the hatches open and will probably park the 1:35 one in the station forecourt near the front of the layout with it's sponsons swung out and the crew round it as if they've got it unloaded and are getting ready to drive it off up Cable Street towards the castle.   A couple of policemen for traffic control wouldn't come amiss.  I just need to find some figures that look about right. Thinking about it there are quite a few figures in boiler suits available.

 

Jamie

 

As well as ModelU, there seem to a couple of others, using the same technology, now doing 1/43 specials, especially military, for the WW1 to WW2 period. They are even doing 1/19, but not at those prices, thank you. They have too high probability of ending up in the dog.

 

[Dave Hunt]

18 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

I was on detachment to 1 RTR in the 70s

 

We have something (almost) in common Clive. In the early 70s I was on a Phantom ground attack squadron in Germany and was given the secondary job of air liaison officer to 3 RTR at Fallingbostel. I used to go up there from time to time to attend various study days and even got to go out on schemes with them when I was attached to a crew as supernumerary bloggs. I got to drive Chieftains and even had a go with the gun. The guys were really friendly and it was a great experience.

 

Dave

[jamie92208]

Uncle T just describes tanks as targets and enjoyed hunting them with Infra red.       Anyway I've been continuing to work on the plastic tank over the past few days.   It's coming on quite well.  When I'd had enough tonight I put it in the station forecourt to see how it looked.

My plan is to have the tank model about here with crew round it.

This shows the horse dock where it would have been unloaded.

Despite the wrong scale it doesn't look too out of place.

 

Jamie

Edited July 29, 2022 by jamie92208

[Dave Hunt]

One of the unkind descriptions of tank crews was 'tinned pongos' but you had to watch out for some of the wicked SAMs and AAA that accompanied them, which could spoil your whole day if you weren't careful.

 

Dave

[lezz01]

Hi Jamie. Loving the tank mate, shame it's too big. I wouldn't have liked to man one though. If the damn thing didn't gas the crew it wasn't just the big guns or triple A that they had to watch out for. You can make an armor piercing round just by taking a rifle bullet off of the cartridge and pushing it back in the wrong way around so the flat end pointed to the front and hey presto you have a round that, whilst it probably won't go through the tank, it will knock a scab of metal off the inside which will fly around the inside of the tank till it hits someone. Bullet splash or spalling they call it. First used against sniper plates I believe. It's now against the Geneva convention to tamper with ammunition in that way but back in WWI there were no rules about things like that. Tank crews wore a chain mail mask to help. In the really early one's the petrol tank was in the front just below the driver which is a damn stupid place to put it if you ask me.

Regards Lez. 

[jamie92208]

Thanks Lezz. I saw some pieces of what looked like chain mail at Bovington. I have a vague memory that it was used to counteract the scabbing. I'm impressed with the kit though. I'ts going together a lot better than some brass ones I've been building.

 

Jamie

 

[sir douglas]

the drivers needed them especially because the most common injury was the sight glass smashing and going into their eyes

https://images.app.goo.gl/UaKhAR3Wi7srARxM7

[Mike Storey]

13 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Thanks Lezz. I saw some pieces of what looked like chain mail at Bovington. I have a vague memory that it was used to counteract the scabbing. I'm impressed with the kit though. I'ts going together a lot better than some brass ones I've been building.

 

Jamie

 

 

Can we take pot shots at it, when we visit, whilst we are waiting for our coffee?? You can shoot at my canal boats in retaliation (or preferably the dog when he tries to eat them) - promise!

 

[jamie92208]

Long time without a post for various reasons.   It's been very hot, of 40 degrees some days and there has been quite a lot of work to tame the jungle that grew while we were away and other tasks.   However I got back into the shed tonight determined to make a start on painting the two loco kits, (2F and 2-4-0).   It took me at least 20 minutes to find all the various parts of the two locos but eventually got the 2F into primer after a few tickles of various loose bits with a soldering iron, and the manufacture of a replacement step from some scrap etch.   I now need to put the lamp irons on the 2-4-0 before that can go into primer.  The chassis still needs some work to reconnect the valve gear and con rods after the repair to the floppy axle.  

The 2F is drying now bit no doubt in the morning light the primer will have revealed many chasms etc that need filling.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

SWMBO often says to me, "Why do you cover up all that lovely, shiny metal with paint? especially as you hate doing it so much." My two sons reckon that they learned most of the swear words they know listening to me when I was spraying models.

 

Dave

[lezz01]

I too hate painting guys. However it needs to be done so you either learn to do it yourself or pay someone too much money to do it for you. I learnt to do it myself and I'm not too terrible at it, I still hate it though. I am looking forward to seeing the 2-4-0 all lined up and looking her best. Full Johnson bling or the Deeley abridged version Jamie? I've never worked up enough nerve to have a go at the full monty I always go with the easy version.

Regards Lez.

[jamie92208]

5 minutes ago, lezz01 said:

I too hate painting guys. However it needs to be done so you either learn to do it yourself or pay someone too much money to do it for you. I learnt to do it myself and I'm not too terrible at it, I still hate it though. I am looking forward to seeing the 2-4-0 all lined up and looking her best. Full Johnson bling or the Deeley abridged version Jamie? I've never worked up enough nerve to have a go at the full monty I always go with the easy version.

Regards Lez.

Hi Lez, as the layout is set in 1923 it will be in the Deeley simplified. I've fou d my bow pen and am goi g to have a go at lini g, using plastikard guides for the splashers. I saw a demo of that once.  I've still got part of one side of 996 to line.

 

Jamie

[lezz01]

I use Pens from WHSmiths Jamie. They do a very good fine gold marker and a selection of black ones with different thicknesses. I have a lining pen as well but I've never had much success with it. I find it too fussy.

Regards Lez. 

[lezz01]

So I just went upstairs and checked in my big paint toolbox. The gold marker is a Pilot Gold Marker extra fine point. It is just the right size for the beading and paneling on coaches. Now I will swear that that is the first time I've touched it for 20 years and after a good shake to get the steel ball moving it worked on the second stroke giving a good coverage with almost no bleed at all. Not bad for something that cost 99p 20 odd years back. I have two more still sealed. The black is easy as there are so many options for fiber drafting pens you just choose how much you want to spend and there is something for you in any stationers. I go with the German sounding Stat.. something as there are multiple thicknesses on offer. 

Regards Lez.  

[jamie92208]

Thanks very much for that Lez. I'll have a look out for those pens.   I've used black ones in the past but not gold ones.   I'll have to look on line as there aren't any decent stationers near where we live.   I think the loco lining was in straw by the 1920's but will check.   However I definitely need gold for some coaches.

 

Jamie

[enginelane]

Daughters used to stock up in France with pens at the hyper marches as a good selection when French kids going back to school. I did get a couple of fine silver ones if memory serves correct 

[jamie92208]

17 minutes ago, enginelane said:

Daughters used to stock up in France with pens at the hyper marches as a good selection when French kids going back to school. I did get a couple of fine silver ones if memory serves correct 

Thanks for that Steve.   I might happen to be passing a hypermarche tomorrow.  It's also conveniently near the local railway station (20 miles away) so a trip I on order methinks.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

33 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Thanks very much for that Lez. I'll have a look out for those pens.   I've used black ones in the past but not gold ones.   I'll have to look on line as there aren't any decent stationers near where we live.   I think the loco lining was in straw by the 1920's but will check.   However I definitely need gold for some coaches.

 

Jamie

 

The loco lining was never gold, always pale yellow although reportedly the Weatherburn version was very pale, almost white, on some of the 'yellow belly' Kentish Town engines. Deeley put a stop to that, though, and there was much more uniformity from 1905ish.

[Andy Hayter]

10 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Thanks for that Steve.   I might happen to be passing a hypermarche tomorrow.  It's also conveniently near the local railway station (20 miles away) so a trip I on order methinks.

 

Jamie

 

Most of them should be stocked up now ready for the rentrée.  It always seems very early to me to have all the kids stuff ready for their return to school on the shelves at the end of July, but there you are.

[jamie92208]

Thanks for that Andy, I'm off to Leclerc's tomorrow whilst on an expedition for plumbing supplies.   However I have progressed today in between other jobs.  I managed to get the lamp irons on the other tender and sorted out some other little things so today got everything except one tender chassis into primer.

 

The 2-4-0 is on the left and the 2F on the right.  The 2F tender and loco chassis are already in black.  The 2-4-0 chassis has parcel tape masking the pick ups and the motion.

 

Hopefully tomorrow I'll get 216  (the 2-4-0) into red primer and the 2F into black.

 

Jamie

 

[Dave Hunt]

I realise that it's a bit late now, Jamie, but for what it's worth I paint my models before fitting most of the details such as handrails, injectors, ejectors, chimneys, domes, safety valves, boiler clothing bands, tender axleboxes, outside springs and smokebox doors. I find that this makes it less likely for runs to develop in the paint and it is far easier to do the lining. Once all is painted and lined I fit boiler bands by painting a sheet of tracing paper matt straw then ruling on the black lines, cutting out the bands with a scalpel and steel rule and applying them by tacking the ends with small dots of Evostick. Once they are in place I varnish over them with gloss varnish, carefully letting the varnish ooze over the edge and underneath. Once the varnish has hardened the bands are firmly stuck on - all the engines I have shown in earlier posts were done that way and after between 15 and 40 years none has so far moved or come unstuck. The detail fittings I glue on with the long-cure Araldite having first scratched the surface of the paintwork where they are to go down to the metal as well as doing the same with the fitting itself. Seldom have I ever had problems with anything coming unstuck, the few times I have being small details moved due to rough handling at exhibitions. Lining the base of a dome before fixing it in place, lining tender frames before attaching the axleboxes, lining cab spectacle plates without safety valves or whistles in the way, or making polished brass safety valve covers or spectacle frames is so much easier than trying to do it with everything already in place. For such things as splashers I use either plastic templates, as you describe, or by adding an extended guide to a bow pen that runs sound the edge; the latter is a good way of lining round the top of a spectacle plate. For the lining itself I use matt pale straw paint (Humbrol No. 73 IIRC) with straight lines masked off using thin strips sliced from sellotape and curves by either of the methods described above or for some small radius curves just by hand using fine brushes. Once the straw is thoroughly hardened - at least a week - I do the black using a .5mm Rotring pen then when the ink is dry painting up to the line with gloss black paint using fine brushes going on to bigger brushes for the running plates, smokebox etc.. When all is dry and hard I go over the lining with gloss varnish and fine brushes.

 

These methods may be somewhat unconventional but for me they work. As Lez states, full Johnson lining is a damn sight harder to do than the simplified Deeley style which, to be honest, is why so many of my engines are in post-1905 condition.

 

As I wrote at the beginning, all this is a bit late for your 2-4-0 but I hope it may be of interest and possibly even use for later projects. When one commentator decried my using glue to stick things on models I pointed out that I had for several decades been flying high performance aircraft that had epoxy resins used in their construction and was still alive to tell the tale so it was probably OK to use them when making model locomotives.

 

Dave

[jamie92208]

Thanks to all for all the helpful advice.   I duly went to Leclerc's this morning and was unable to find any gold pens but will get some sent from the UK. No 1 son can bring them over later this month.  I was also unable to find a UK to French 16mm adaptor for copper pipe but more of that on ER's.  However it has been another warm day after overnight rain so this afternoon more objects were painted.   I did the 2F tender and body plus the 2-4-0 frames in matt black and put them aside.  then the 2-4-0  body and tender were painted in red oxide primer.    Then it was pool time.    After that I inspected the various items and found that there was some over spraying on the 2-4-0's tender.   That was sorted pdq with some wet and dry.

 

This evening I went back and found that I hadn't put the 2F far enough away and some mist had settled.   A quick 2nd coat of black sorted that. 30 minutes later they had dried enough to be put a little further away.  A first coat of Rover Damask red was then sprayed on the 2-4-0.   It will have a second coat tomorrow afternoon.

 

I'm quite happy with the results of today's works.   It certainly helps when the temperature is round about 30 degrees. Listening to the Test Match certainly helped the time pass while coats of paint were drying.

 

Jamie

 

Edited August 2, 2019 by jamie92208

[Andy Hayter]

29 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

  I was also unable to find a UK to French 16mm adaptor for copper pipe but more of that on ER's.  

 

Jamie

 

 

UK 15mm pipe is an interference fit inside French 16mm pipe and can be soldered as such without an adaptor.

 

Edit: Sorry to normal viewers for the off topic interjection.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Andy Hayter