Searching For A Better BR Restaurant Buffet ?

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Everyone,

One of the "Holy Grails" of BR modelling is to get a better quality Mk1 Restaurant Buffet (RB) car, which was a very useful and numerous type. Bachmann don't make one, Mainline did and Replica have carried on producing it in recent years. When the Mainline version appeared (nearly 30yrs ago ?) it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's still pretty good, but the windows aren't very flush and it doesn't match the Bachmann profile.

Here are three different approaches to the problem. First, a straight out of the box Mainline blue-grey model with the original windows removed and replaced with Replica plug-in type. One problem here, Replica don't produce a 3' window, so the 4' version has to be cut down and trickier still, the window vanes have to be altered.

 

 

Next comes a Mainline RB rebuilt with Comet brass sides. I did this one for a friend a couple of years ago, i think those ugly couplings got chopped off shortly afterwards.

 

 

Lastly, the version i'm most pleased with, Comet sides on a Bachmann RU body and chassis. Using this body means it blends in nicely with other Bachmann Mk1s. Roof details and door steps have to be slightly relocated, but nothing too serious. This has started off in cream, so as to end up in WR choc/cream and create the Bristolian rake.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Taz]

Excellent work there Brian.

 

I've got an old Replica RB and have been wondering how it could be spruced up.

 

Larry will have to watch out. He could be in danger of losing his Coach crown

[Penrhos1920]

Lastly, the version i'm most pleased with, Comet sides on a Bachmann RU body and chassis. Using this body means it blends in nicely with other Bachmann Mk1s. Roof details and door steps have to be slightly relocated, but nothing too serious. This has started off in cream, so as to end up in WR choc/cream and create the Bristolian rake.

Cheers, Brian.

 

 

I've started detailing the Mainline version, but not got too far as there is alot to do. I did consider putting the body on a Bachmann chassis, but what are you going to do about the underframe detail? Aren't the boxes etc wrong size and location? The vacuum cylinder is the wrong side of the V hanger which is the wrong type.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks chaps,

I had only plonked the cream body on it's chassis for a quick pic. I've only just noticed that it's on the wrong way around ( or arse-about-face to use the technical term ) !

Apart from details, there are a lot of similarities between the real RB and RU chassis, as you'll probably know. I even managed to re-use the roof parts from the original RU. Someone told me that the Bachmann RU roof details are slightly in the wrong place anyway (by one roof panel).

Cheers, Brian.

[craigwelsh]

Apart from details, there are a lot of similarities between the real RB and RU chassis, as you'll probably know. I even managed to re-use the roof parts from the original RU. Someone told me that the Bachmann RU roof details are slightly in the wrong place anyway (by one roof panel).

Cheers, Brian.

Don't the roof tanks need removing completely if you aren't doing the WR type of RU anyway? I still need to do the window mod on mine to add in the extra full size window.

 

Must admit I started reading your first two conversions and thought "you'd just use a Bachmann now" and then scrolled down .

 

I've started detailing the Mainline version, but not got too far as there is alot to do. I did consider putting the body on a Bachmann chassis, but what are you going to do about the underframe detail? Aren't the boxes etc wrong size and location? The vacuum cylinder is the wrong side of the V hanger which is the wrong type.

Vee hangar is the wrong type for a lot of mk1s and the other end of the shaft is on the wrong u/f member. Most of the catering car boxes were pretty similar and there is always Comet to get some new ones. Thanksfully with the Bachmann it all plugs in easily enough to move it around.

[davidw]

The Bachman derived version does look far better!

[robertcwp]

The RB is the most useful Mark I catering car. All regions, wide range of liveries (maroon, green, chocolate & cream, blueg/grey, Inter-City) and service life of around 30 years. W1646 was repainted chocolate and cream for the Bristolian in 1961 (when it was almost new) and was, I believe, the only Mark I with Commonwealth bogies to carry that livery. The WR's other choc/cream RB vehicles were all from the first batch with BR bogies (W1729-32 carrying the livery). One of that batch ran with chocolate & cream BSO W9276 as its dining trailer in the Cathedrals Express c1961.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Craig and Dave,

Here are some, hopefully, better pics of the Comet/Bachmann RB with the underframe the correct way around. Apart from chopping the ends off, the underframe is so far completely untouched and if you look carefully, will notice it is slightly bowed, from where Bachmann have glued in the u/f details. Also the body needs to be mounted properly and about half a mil higher, and the doorsteps repositioned. Quite right Craig, the position, type of and orientation of the V-hangers is a tricky subject and things started changing in the late 50s. With a few changes, the RU chassis should convert to the RB layout without much trouble. When i discover where i've put it, i should also be able to re-arrange the Bachmann interior to the new layout.

Having chopped off the ends, i like to glue them to the roof, then complete the body box with the etched sides joined to the roof and rebated ends. The chassis and interior is removable, but held in with screws.

Cheers, Brian.

 

(Memo to myself: Don't take pics of cream coaches in front of a cream coloured building )

[coachmann]

I noticed quite a few Western Region Mk.I day coaches had shell roof vents.Was there a story behind this? As for BR Mk.I catering vehicles, it looks like a minefield of slight differences, missing windows and what have you.

[Brian Kirby]

Hello, someone's been studying Mk1 roof pics all of a sudden !

 

Yes, you're right about the shell vents on Mk1s Larry, they seem to have crept in between the regular ridge dome and the later scallop dome (the round blobby ones with the slot down the side, that also appeared on early Mk2 coaches). The shell type also seem to have been used as replacement spares through the years. Bob 65B Reid can probably give a better insight to all this.

Add to this the different windows, interiors, V hangers and other u/f detail, then as you say the Mk1s become a potential minefield. But then again the various big four designs have familiar and uniform looks, then you start noticing all the little variations.

Cheers, Brian.

[Bob Reid]

Okay Larry, here's the Gen on Mark 1 RoofVentilators

 

Three basic types of carriage roof ventilator (for compartments and saloons) ;were commonly used on BR StandardMark 1 stock.

 

- Cast Iron Torpedo Ventilator.

- Fabricated Mild Steel Shell Ventilator.

- Cast Iron or Aluminium Torpedo Ventilator (with Modified Hood)

 

From the first vehicles built in 1951 to around mid 1952, new vehicles were fitted with Cast Iron “torpedo†style roof ventilators (These are the ones Brian refers to as ridge dome), they were also identical to those used previously by the LMS on some stock.

 

From mid 1952 to 1959, shell ventilators, fabricated using off-cuts from the body panels, were fitted to all new build vehicles. There were however issues with corrosion of this type.

 

Progressively from mid 1958 onwards on all new build vehicles, the original cast iron “torpedo†style roof ventilator was re-introduced.

 

From around 1960, the “torpedo†ventilators were redesigned with a larger hood, to overcome problems of ash and dirt entering the vehicles, and these became the final standard roof ventilator for new build vehicles . At some point these were, following the LM Regions workshops lead, changed from being produced in cast-iron to cast aluminium alloy, though the shape remained the same.

 

Generally vehicles would have the same type of ventilator fitted throughout however subsequent workshop overhauls and outstation repairs occasionally caused different types to be mixed on the same roof, although this wasn’t a common occurence.

 

Other notable oddities were the fitment to at least two vehicles with “torpedo†style roof ventilators that had more in common with the pre-Nationalisation designs, having large side cones as opposed to the ballshaped chambers used commonly by BR and at times the LMS before it.

 

Although I've yet to complete the drawing for the shell ventilator, these are the two types of torpedo ventilator used;

 

 

 

This final style was as Brian said used on the Mark 2s also - up and until the end of Mark 2c production.

 

[i should have added that Dart Castings (amongst others) supply both types of Torpedo Vent;

 

The original; (Ridged Dome)

 

and the re-designed version; (Scalloped Dome)

[coachmann]

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to explain things. I have kept this on file. As the GWR was the only railway to standardise on shell vents for much of its existence, I assumed it might have been a W. Region specification, but it was obviously coincidence.

 

I do indeed use Dart castings Ridge Dome Vents as well as this firms torpedo and shell vents. The Ridge dome originated on the LNWR circa 1918, continuing to be fitted to LMS coaches built at Wolverton in the 1920s, becoming an LMS standard after the war, and adopted by BR for a while. So it had a good run

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for that Bob, great graphics.

I'm a bit confused, why do you call two of the dome shape vents "torpedo" ? What is the "torpedo" aspect about them ? To me, a torpedo vent (visually) has always been a diamond shape with pointy sides ! Is it something to do with it's internal shape ?

I always thought the "ridge dome" was more common than the shell, until 1960 ?

Lastly, those Dart Castings vents and sprues look very similar to Southern Pride's offering (or vice-versa). Coincidence or just two good representations ?

Cheers, Brian.

[Bob Reid]

Hi Brian - Torpedo is just the generic name for that design of roof ventilator where the action of the air passing around the two cones of the ventilator creates a depression in air pressure inside the hollow body drawing stale air out of the coach via a tube connected to the coach interior.

 

All were variations on this design by William Laycock from 1901 (though he doesn't claim to have invented the name);

 

 

The only difference with the BR (ex-LNWR/LMS) versions, is that the hollow cones have been replaced with hollow spheres. The operation however is exactly the same - this is the original version in cross section;

 

 

The change dates come from a combination of the CSSC minutes and the three production drawings. There are more specific dates for the changes being authorised however these can only ever be approximate as the works were alway instructed to change the types from one to the other with the qualifier "on exhaustion of existing stocks".

 

Eventually I will get round to trying to check each lots fitment!

 

As far as the GWR design Larry. The two cast versions were the design responsibility of Eastleigh (though clearly they received input from the LM) however the shell ventilator was to a design by Swindon, so I've no doubt it was a hangover from the GWR days a few years earlier!

 

p.s. Brian I just noticed I titled those links to the MJT/Dart ventilators in the wrong order, placing the ridged dome after the scalloped dome - since corrected.....

[craigwelsh]

Where have you got the drawings of these parts from and do they have these sorts of drawings of the vee hangers etc in the set? I haven't really looked for these at the NRM where they must be somewhere but do want to do new etched parts for the underframe in 4mm.

 

Your 3D graphics are very good.

 

The CSSC minutes are in the Parkin Compendium volume (I think its the full minutes in there anyway or at least good notes)and that book adds a lot to the main volume.

 

It might be that Southern Pride resell the MJT/Dart castings?

[Brian Kirby]

Many Thanks Bob,

Beautifully explained. The graphics really are terrific.

 

So on a shell vent, are the leaves or fins only attached at either end with slots between ?

Or are the fins continuously joined to form a solid hemisphere (or half of a dome) ?

 

Going way off the RB topic, did the hideous-looking early Mk2c G and GM square box vents and later RV type, still have the same internal arrangement as the earlier vents ?

Cheers, Brian.

[Bob Reid]

(for Mark 1s at least) Craig, I've a fair collection of the BR Standard series Drawings on Aperture Cards (though sadly no way of printing them cheaply) - hence the use of Autocad and Inventor, from when I worked for the CM&EE. As far as the Vee Hangers, I've can knock up whatever your after (PM or email me if you need to) having done a fair bit on the drawings for etched replacement parts for them already.

 

The CSSC Minutes in the Parkin supplement are without a doubt good however they are a very shorthand version of each minute - the originals (Keith used the copies held in the NRM) are much longer (as were all the meetings we went to)! and contain the full minute and more importantly the referencing of previous minutes to place them all in context with each other. Fortunately I've copies of the post 56 minutes on Microfilm.

 

Apologies Brian for butting in on your thread!

 

 

[Bob Reid]

Many Thanks Bob,

Beautifully explained. The graphics really are terrific.

 

So on a shell vent, are the leaves or fins only attached at either end with slots between ?

Or are the fins continuously joined to form a solid hemisphere (or half of a dome) ?

 

Going way off the RB topic, did the hideous-looking early Mk2c G and GM square box vents and later RV type, still have the same internal arrangement as the earlier vents ?

Cheers, Brian.

 

I'll give you a part answer just now Brian - bed beckons! The fabricated shell vents had similar central ventilator tube which formed part of the base to which 5? mild steel leaves were rivetted at the ends to. One on the top as a cover, and two down each side, each with a 1/8" gap between each other at the side - the difference basically was that the whole body formed the dome, and the air rushing past the 1/8" gaps created a depression inside and drew the air out of the vehicle! - These are based on the Classic Ash's patent Ventilator which I believe the GWR made good use of.

 

Must finish that drawing and it'll maybe be more self explanatory to see all three.

 

More on the GM /Roevac Vents later......

 

Maybe you should re-title the post "The Search for a Better BR Ventilator"

[Andy G]

Where have you got the drawings of these parts from and do they have these sorts of drawings of the vee hangers etc in the set? I haven't really looked for these at the NRM where they must be somewhere but do want to do new etched parts for the underframe in 4mm.

 

Your 3D graphics are very good.

 

The CSSC minutes are in the Parkin Compendium volume (I think its the full minutes in there anyway or at least good notes)and that book adds a lot to the main volume.

 

It might be that Southern Pride resell the MJT/Dart castings?

 

 

Craig, are you aware that Masokits does an etch of Mk 1 details. It's only small but if I can find one tonight I'll bring it to the do tomorrow.

 

Andy

[coachmann]

I look forward to seeing this catering vehicle develop. If I wanted an unclassed dining car for an Eastern Region train in 1953, what diagram should I be looking to build?

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Larry,

I'm stirring the chocolate paint, as i type with the other hand.

 

If you're modelling ER 1953 (Coronation bunting on the station ?) you'd need one of the various Gresley diagrams. The only BR Mk1 catering cars by then were the three car RFO-RK-RSO and WR only two car RF-RSO sets. All the BR RB and RU types came later in the 1950s.

 

Bob, looking forward to the G,GM,RV vent info.

Cheers, Brian.

[coachmann]

Thanks Brian, I suspected I'd be out of luck. Looks like my Gresley D10C Diner and D27A open third will have to hog the catering traffic, while an ex LMS Period II Diner Compo will be built for the LMR express.

 

Larry

[robertcwp]

Hi Larry,

I'm stirring the chocolate paint, as i type with the other hand.

 

If you're modelling ER 1953 (Coronation bunting on the station ?) you'd need one of the various Gresley diagrams. The only BR Mk1 catering cars by then were the three car RFO-RK-RSO and WR only two car RF-RSO sets. All the BR RB and RU types came later in the 1950s.

 

Bob, looking forward to the G,GM,RV vent info.

Cheers, Brian.

Or Thompson catering vehicles, RF and RK, which were common on the ECML in the 1950s. Some of the ex-streamliner catering vehicles could also be seen, notably a RT-TO pair in the King's Cross-Glasgow Queen Street train.

[Brian Kirby]

Well Larry was asking for an unclassified catering car, that's why i suggested Gresley stock. A Diagram 11 RU should fit the bill. Thompson didn't build any RU types.

Cheers, Brian.

[mark54]

If I wanted an unclassed dining car for an Eastern Region train in 1953, what diagram should I be looking to build?

There were also Gresley and Thompson Restaurant Pantry Thirds (RTP) that ran with Restaurant Firsts.

 

Mark