Chuntybunt Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi all I have come to what I think is the conclusion of the track planning stage of my layout and am now moving forward with building the baseboards and have a view to start laying the track soon. I am modelling a BR southern region 70s / 80s era suburban main line station with branch and depot in 00. I had planed to use Peco sl code 75 rail with cut webbing to improve the look and Peco points but now I have had a crisis of confidence. This morning I was looking at my old class 52 Western on my work bench and the bogies are just screaming “OUT OF SCALE†at me. So has anyone out there ever built there layout then regretted doing it in 00 and wished they had done it in EM or P4. I am now wondering if I should build in EM and use SMP track and point kits. I have never built any track and only ever laid Hornby track. It has taken quite a while to get to this stage and the layout build is going to take me quite some time so I want to get It right but I would hate to look back in years to come and wish I had done something so fundamental differently. I also want to get things moving and don't have the time or money for C&L track work great as it looks. So is EM worth the time and expense of the track an re-wheeling all the rolling stock or should I just get on with Peco and enjoy running the layout? Any advice would be much appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Are you doing a shunting plank or a big roundy-roundy with umpteen scale miles of track and storage sidings etc... ? I think you have answered your own question : from a financial and patience perspective... No regrets about 00 gauge - 7mm scale was the diversion, and in the 'senior' scale the approach is different...dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuntybunt Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Are you doing a shunting plank or a big roundy-roundy with umpteen scale miles of track and storage sidings etc... ? I think you have answered your own question : from a financial and patience perspective... No regrets about 00 gauge - 7mm scale was the diversion, and in the 'senior' scale the approach is different...dilbert Hi, I am doing a roundy-roundy, I do love the sound of locos on a continuous run of track, in the loft with a 12' x 3' scenic section the rest is fiddle yard and the main line loop. Although I'm not a rivet counter I do want the layout to have the feel and look of being correct and well detailed track looks so great Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 In a word NO, on account of convenience, and time. I am building a 20 x 8ft 'roundy-roundy', and perfectly happy with the way it's going. When I have more time I will post more in the 'Layout' section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I did build a layout in 00 and regretted it partly because the Peco points were quite coarse scale. One of my 'things' is building wagon kits to be that bit different but I did not want to fit steam-roller wheels to fine scale kits. They just would not go through the points, the back-to-backs, at 14.5mm, allowed the flanges to climb over the crossing noses so I reverted to running mostly RTR stock until I got fed up and shimmed the wing rails to keep the flange right side of the noses. That then meant I could not run some of the other RTR wagons without re-wheeling. Hey Ho!! I wish I'd built my own points. I also built a P4 glorified shunting plank which works but I want to use steam locos. OK if you have the time to build kits but a pain in the bum if you want to convert stuff with outside valve gear. I know lots of folks do it but I have not been successful so far. If you want to go to P4 I reckon it should be a doddle for D&E layouts because you can nowadays get drop-in wheelsets and off you go - "morseau de gateaux" as Captain Mainwaring would say. Plain line you can buy ready made. Building your own point is not too difficult really as long as you can solder; if you can't its a good thing to practise with, the hard bits are filing the switch blades and crossing noses. It is also significantly cheaper than point kits and you can make them in situ if necessary to whatever geometry you desire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 My friend who is new to the hobby has plumped for N gauge, and I have to say that sometimes I am a little jealous at what he can fit in the size available. I'm also jealous of the availability of class 14s at much lower prices than the £115 Heljan ones in OO. I model in OO because when I started N gauge looked a bit toylike and was very much the poor cousin of OO. I had also been brought up with OO, so that was what I knew. It isn't a big regret, but just think what I could have done in N gauge in the size that Grove Street Yard is! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Umm - difficult to answer with any real honesty. The answer should probably be a definite "yes" but then having had an extended venture into EM in the 80's I have unhappy memories. Converting RTR was never easy and I don't think it is any easier now. In theory P4 would be the right way to go but I just cannot see that the extra effort is justified. I'm afraid I just cannot see the difference between P4 and EM track on any layout and will never be convinced anyone can. EM track has come along way but still cannot be considered convenient where as OO is certainly convenient - even if much of the time it looks wrong. OO-SF has never made an impression on me, seen as a rather pointless argument in standards for something that is fundamentally just as wrong as OO. On top of that there are some outstanding layouts using OO and until I can achieve something approaching that brilliance, why change? So, if I was starting out completely new now with no prior experience, I'd probably go EM and probably end up just as disappointed picking up some OO track just to actually move forward with a layout. The same question could be asked of the other gauges (I model in N, OO9, O, and O) and probably the only one I would change for the so-called "fine scale" equivalent is N gauge. The argument is always going to be won by OO simply as it is convenient and all those calls for RTR "correct scale" continue to fall on deaf ears (and/or continue to be non-viable) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuntybunt Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Converting RTR was never easy and I don't think it is any easier now. Ah yes I've just had a look at my Hornby 73s and Heljan 33s and there is no visible way of replacing the wheels other than with a hammer and chisel. The old models just had a plate on the bottom that you unscrewed and the wheels dropped out, I would be afraid of damaging the delicately moulded drive parts on the newer models. On top of that there are some outstanding layouts using OO and until I can achieve something approaching that brilliance, why change? This is very true, track building is a dark art that I'm not sure I have the skills for yet. My layout also is nowhere near acurate in terms of track curves so would using EM track improve the look at all? I guess it's a good job my Weston will never be seen on this layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattmaz Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I've never regretted modelling in "00 scale", especially now that I am part-way through the construction of a relatively large "roundy" layout. I guess if I were to ever build another plank layout, or rather end-to-end then I may consider experimenting. My personal opinion (which isn't necessarily right!) is I don't have enough time to spend building track to an exact scale - there's far more important things to be done. I do prefer the code 75 stuff though, and was rather annoyed to see the concrete sleeper version released a few months after my code 100 concrete sleepers had been well & truly laid Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Converting RTR was never easy and I don't think it is any easier now. Ok, perhaps I do need to qualify that statement with the fact that in those days modelling diesels was not so common and I never did. I'll admit that with Ultrascale drop in replacements "some" RTR conversions are now a great deal easier. However it is the track which is still the clincher and when you are starting out building your own can be a big step into the unknown, whereas you can open a few boxes throw track and trains together and you have something running in minutes. By the time you realise there is something possibly better you have probably already acquired more stock and possibly settled in the same rut as everyone else. Having to change everything and start again becomes a big step in both expense and conviction to get involved in modeling everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi Chuntybunt, (edited to correct spelling - CP) The answer in my case is: No! I don't think I'm up to P4 lacking the skills and time. I do like the look of EM trackwork built with modern components though. Another consideration is that even EM gauge point work will reduce siding length to some degree in a given space. So my present layout would not have accomodated quite such long trains (and even with 00 trackwork 00 they are much too short). I have got away with 3ft SMP points in 00, but I don't think I would have in EM or P4. Everyone in the hobby modelling 4mm and upwards in scale would probably agree that lack of prototypical length is one of the greatest difficulties we have to overcome. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Never regretted any layout I have built over the years to be honest. I have had forays into N (very brief), HO, OO, O, On30/O-16.5 and each has served to fulfill my ideas and plans perfectly adequately. I will never be a Finescale modeller because I am just not that driven - provided a layout runs well then I am a happy bunny and can live with non-prototypical sleeper spacing, etc. Handbuilt track is a skill to learn and master - it may be frustrating at first but with practice can become second nature - so don't be put off by that. How much stock would you have to re-wheel and might this be time or cost prohibitive for you in the long run ? If you are feeling doubt about OO then give EM a go & if you find it frustrating or no fun then go back to OO sure in your own mind that you at least tried. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted January 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2011 No, not at all, it's a good start to railway modelling and people have achieved very high standards with OO! There's NO perfect scale/gauge for railway modelling so choose what feels right for yourself! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I built two layouts in 00 when I was younger, and never regretted it. I do think it looks out of scale, and the wheels especially look bad, but it's quick and easy to get a layout moving so I'd not knock it. When I came back to the hobby after the usual interlude caused by the fairer sex, mortgage etc I seriously looked at P4, and have to say it really looks good to me. However I'd decided that my interest really lay in building loco's, and 7mm finescale enables a lot of extra detail whilst avoiding being too much like watchmaking, so this is where I ended up. Each to their own I say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Ah yes I've just had a look at my Hornby 73s and Heljan 33s and there is no visible way of replacing the wheels other than with a hammer and chisel. The old models just had a plate on the bottom that you unscrewed and the wheels dropped out, I would be afraid of damaging the delicately moulded drive parts on the newer models. Modern, central can-motored diesels tend to open up in similar manner. Often without the screws. Hopefully this image will work: All that is required is to swap the brass bushes and plastic gear onto a replacement wheelset. Steam is different, and old-school motor bogies are different again. The above is a cl.24 bogie. Your 33 will be similar but without the brass bushes. You're looking at about 10min work to regauge (as a beginner). As to whether it's all worthwhile, that's one for your own judgement. Is the benefit in appearance worth the time building pointwork? Don't worry too much about expense, as that can usually be reduced by DIY techniques rather than buying in - albeit with a time penalty. I model EM, but would probably be happy in OO - but still with non-Peco trackwork. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2011 No I have no regrets about modelling in OO as it got me into modelling but I have no regrets about moving away from OO and would not go back there now as I find the extra sense of space in 2mm thrilling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuntybunt Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 How much stock would you have to re-wheel and might this be time or cost prohibitive for you in the long run ? I have very little stock at the moment which is one of the reasons why I am considering it at this time. But I would hate to look back in a few years time and wish I had gone for EM and then have to fork out to re-wheel a lot of stock which would workout prohibitively expensive. In terms of time, to take a realistic view,I will probably be building the layout for the next ten years so that is not rely an issue. Thanks for the pic James so should I just take a screwdriver to the bottom of the bogie and prise it off? May try it on the old Weston to be on the safe side Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 If you have little stock to convert then why not give it a go - nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that - even if you start with a single board with a point or two & some straights as a test bed to hone your skills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 If you want to do better than Peco , you could build your own pointwork in OO. The advantages of this over EM and P4 are substantial: a) You don't have to convert any of your stock B) You only have to handbuild the pointwork for the visible section. The fiddle yard stays Peco - so you probably have to build less than half the points c) The safe minium radius in OO is usuallyb much less that EM, never mind P4 not to mention: d) You're not committed without a retreat if it doesn't work. You can try building your own points - and if you do it in OO, then if you can't make them work, you just buy some replacement Peco. You're only writing off the cost and time of your trial points Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 It's a personal choice & how it looks is very much in the eye of the beholder. I believe that things don't look poor until you are used to seeing them differently. I used to be happy with code 100, but now I have got used to seeing code 75, 100 looks coarse. I always used to lay track as supplied. Now I space the sleepers out & I think it makes a huge difference. I'm not that used to seeing P4 or EM. Admittedly, both are much better, but I still don't think they quite catch the look of the prototype. I also don't believe in trying too many new things with a new layout. Too much to put right if it goes wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I model in EM as I prefer the look of it. However I'm unlikely to build a sizeable layout anytime in the future so building my own track isn't a worry. However there are times when I think that staying with OO might have been better, for example running my locos on others layouts (I don't know anyone with an EM layout local to me) or getting something up and running quickly with no fuss. Perhaps in your case it might be wise if you have the room to lay a temperary loop of OO track to run on whilst slowly building up the rest of the layout in EM? That way if track building gets too boring you can still sit back and watch something run, replacing the OO loop when the EM trackwork is laid and fully tested. There was a pre-grouping layout on the old forum that was built to EM but had a OO running track as well so the builder and his son could run their OO and EM stock at the same time on the same layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 The pre group layout can be found by typing "ureka" in the search box Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi A few comments that might help you IF you are ONLY using diesels P4 is no more difficult than EM. In some cases it can be easier. Its your couplings that dictate your curves with diesel locomotives not the track gauge. If a class 25 goes happily around a 1st radius curve in 00 it will do exactly the same in P4. Your woodworking skills will effect p4 road holding more than your track building. If you can build a baseboard that is stable and flat then you will be fine. Track building can be very enjoyable. ..Most 00 modellers have not done what you have and noticed that your bogies are screaming out of scale. Now that genie is out of the bottle you may not be able to get it back in! Do you just want to run trains or is it the construction of a model railway that interests you? and finally is the difference between this... ...and 00 really obvious to you? If the answer is no then its probably not worth changing. Cheers Jim (building a 62ft x 20ft P4 layout - dont let the size decide ANYTHING!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I just cannot see that the extra effort is justified. I'm afraid I just cannot see the difference between P4 and EM track on any layout and will never be convinced anyone can. The difference is that the gap between running and check rails in P4 is less than the width of the rail head, like the real thing. In EM its the other way round. Once you know this difference its very obvious and makes EM look more like 00 than p4. HTH Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Thanks for the pic James so should I just take a screwdriver to the bottom of the bogie and prise it off? May try it on the old Weston to be on the safe side Well something like that, take your time and see where the clips are and prise gently. There will be threads on here covering opening up most of the manufacturer's standard bogies, and where there isn't - someone will be able to advise. The thread seems to be falling to a nice consensus: determine whether you feel the visual improvement is worthwhile for what you want to get out of the hobby. Find the balance that suits you, even if there's a little trial and error along the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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