Dominion of Canada - Returns to the UK

[Dagworth]

What would we think if parties wanted to repatriate overseas exhibits from the NRM?

Personally I'd prefer to see the 'National' (not international) Railway Museum concentrate on British railway history and not fill the great hall with overseas items that mean important UK items get neglected. Things like HSFV1 are far more significant than some of the items that are on display yet when it was discovered in Derby yard and offered to the NRM last year it was turned down. Look at the state that the APT power car and APT-E have been allowed to get into. All three items are far more important in the story of high speed rail travel in this country (and worldwide in the case of HSFV1) than the bullet train.

 

Andi

[PhilH]

Aside from the A4LS, I seriously doubt the owners of No.9/19 are too worried about "their investment".

As it is, all 3 were doing reasonably well both on the mainline and with respective running agreements on preserved lines, admittedly Mr C moving No.9 back home probably didn't too the loco any favours, as understandable and indeed welcome as it was.

 

When we had 19 on the MHR, the owner, despite his deep pockets, was very keen to get a lot of mainline work for it - and disappointed when it didn't.

[Andy Y]

If you mean that 'orrible Chinese plumbers nightmare in the Great Hall then they're welcome to it!

 

I think this demonstrates how parochial interests can be. Whilst we're at it we'll not allow any of that there foreign muck in the British Museum.

 

 

 

[asmay2002]

If you mean that 'orrible Chinese plumbers nightmare in the Great Hall then they're welcome to it!

 

It isn't foreign. It was built in the UK and exported. That was back when we could build things that other people wanted to buy.

[Sir Hadyn]

Personally I'd prefer to see the 'National' (not international) Railway Museum concentrate on British railway history and not fill the great hall with overseas items that mean important UK items get neglected. Things like HSFV1 are far more significant than some of the items that are on display yet when it was discovered in Derby yard and offered to the NRM last year it was turned down. Look at the state that the APT power car and APT-E have been allowed to get into. All three items are far more important in the story of high speed rail travel in this country (and worldwide in the case of HSFV1) than the bullet train.

 

Andi

 

APT-P has a very positive future that will be made public as soon as I can tell you

APT-E is under cover at Shildon and the team very active in working on her.

I turned HSFV1 down as we didn't have the space to give it the care it deserved. It at least survives in preservation and will soon be joined by other significant parts of the APT story (oops, I've said enough)

 

Cheers

Anthony

[Dagworth]

I'm not wanting to be argumentative, your reply is much appreciated but

I turned HSFV1 down as we didn't have the space to give it the care it deserved.

rather proves the point I was making. I look forward to the APT news.

 

Andi

[10000]

 

 

I think it's the same Derby repaint as Dwight D. Eisenhower had, for display purposes.

 

 

She was repainted at Crewe before shipping out to Canada. I had the pleasure of seeing her for the last time in Crewe paint shop.

[Sir Hadyn]

I'm not wanting to be argumentative, your reply is much appreciated but

 

rather proves the point I was making. I look forward to the APT news.

 

Andi

 

Thanks Andi - and it is true, if we cannot look after it, it deserves to be elsewhere - and I will try to ensure the best care possible for the collection during my time as Senior Wizard of Rail Vehicle Collections (hence the good APT news I'm sitting on). Yes, certain items have not been done well to in the past and we'll have a go at righting some historic wrongs, but in a climate of funding cuts and a limited number of hours in the day it'll not happen overnight sadly.

 

Cheers

Anthony

[10000]

Just dug this out, sorry only black and white.

 

 

 

 

Just before shipping out from Crewe to Canada

[coachmann]

Imagine if in 50 years time some [admin edit] appears on a website telling his elders that they had no right to give a Class 37 or whatever away because he and his generation had been denied the chance to play with it.

 

 

As has been said already, if the A4's had been called Duckegg or Flying Sprogg they'd have been cut up. If any are returned, all they're good for is stripping down and rebuilding into A3's....

[Horsetan]

Dominion of Canada was given a cosmetic restoration before being handed to the Canadian authorities. RCTS describes its boiler as being in very poor condition, so it's not as if it was ever going to work again anyway. The paint - whilst shabby - is probably still the same paint that it bore when BR handed it over.

 

I think Simon has - in his usual idealistic way (I recognise where he's coming from, because I used to think like that when I was his age) - merely given vent to the possessive feelings that enthusiasts generally have towards the things that they worship.

 

"Let's spend the money and take it all back". The repatriation of Dunrobin aside, there is a slight technical problem with this:

 

1. Where's the money to repatriate an A4 that needs a new boiler? Is it all coming from student grants? Or is Jeremy Hosking going to be "leaned on" to pay for it all?

 

2. Would the Canadians relinquish it anyway - they have been equally possessive towards it when earlier bids to bring it back to the UK were raised.

 

If you mean that 'orrible Chinese plumbers nightmare in the Great Hall then they're welcome to it!

 

Errm....I think "we" (Vulcan Foundry) actually built that for the Chinese.

[S.A.C Martin]

Dominion of Canada was given a cosmetic restoration before being handed to the Canadian authorities. RCTS describes its boiler as being in very poor condition, so it's not as if it was ever going to work again anyway. The paint - whilst shabby - is probably still the same paint that it bore when BR handed it over.

 

Possibly. Thanks to the chap above btw, first for the information on the Crewe repaint, and then that fabulous B&W photograph.

 

I think Simon has - in his usual idealistic way (I recognise where he's coming from, because I used to think like that when I was his age) - merely given vent to the possessive feelings that enthusiasts generally have towards the things that they worship.

 

I'm not sure whether I should feel insulted or complimented there!

 

"Let's spend the money and take it all back". The repatriation of Dunrobin aside, there is a slight technical problem with this:

 

1. Where's the money to repatriate an A4 that needs a new boiler? Is it all coming from student grants? Or is Jeremy Hosking going to be "leaned on" to pay for it all?

 

2. Would the Canadians relinquish it anyway - they have been equally possessive towards it when earlier bids to bring it back to the UK were raised.

 

Just to respond to your points...

 

1. Who said anything about steaming it?

 

2. Very true.

 

It doesn't necessarily have to steam again to be kept in better condition. A repaint, fix the rust, and the damaged casing/coupling and similar. As I said several times - they've done a terrific job with Waddon. Now do it with DoC please. If they get out the begging bowl for donations, I'll put my money where my mouth is and send them a few bob.

 

Idealistic? Yes. Young? Yes.

 

Errm....I think "we" (Vulcan Foundry) actually built that for the Chinese.

 

Yes we did. I do think the story of Britain's railway exports needs to be told, what better way than with displaying a large Chinese engine? I certainly didn't know we exported to China until I went to the NRM for the first time, many years ago...

[Horsetan]

....I'm not sure whether I should feel insulted or complimented there!

 

I'll leave you to decide, shall I?

 

Just to respond to your points...

 

1. Who said anything about steaming it?...

 

The temptation will be there.....with the consequent appeal for even more funds.

[Bon Accord]

 

 

 

Errm....I think "we" (Vulcan Foundry) actually built that for the Chinese.

 

 

I know "we" did, but I'm sure most of us here would still regard it as a Chinese loco, donated by the Chinese Govt.

[The Stationmaster]

I know "we" did, but I'm sure most of us here would still regard it as a Chinese loco, donated by the Chinese Govt.

 

The Cantlie 4-8-4 at the NRM is a 100% British design (it was designed by Kenneth Cantlie specificially for Chinese service) and is effectively in British loco history a contemporary of, and in some respects in advance of, designs from - say Gresley and Stanier in the 1930s. If any example - other than a Garratt - of a British export loco were to be preserved in Britain's National Railway Museum this one would probably have a better claim than most as it was a very successful design and readily attributable to the man who actually designed it (unlike many of the CMEs who merely instructed their drawing offices to incorporate certain principles and features).

 

I suppose at the end of the day we are either interested in our railway heritage in its totality or we are not - fortunately within the limits imposed by space and finance our NRM has managed to do some of that and even if it hasn't always hit the mark it should at the very least be thanked and recognised for that wider appreciation of our railway history. It was very easy for any of us to criticise things which were nominated for the National Collection or the Museum as it is today for saving this or not saving that but they don't have a bottomless pit of cash and endless space - they have to make decisions, and sometimes some of us won't like those decisions.

 

As for A4s nearly 20% of the (postwar total) class survived into preservation with 12% of the class remaining in Britain with usually at least of those in working order - why exactly would we want to expensively repatriate one of those which went abroad when we've already got four? I'm open to correction but I think the A4s must come quite near the top of the list in terms of percentage of class, certainly of top rank classes, saved from the scrapman and already occasionally operational.

[S.A.C Martin]

I'll leave you to decide, shall I?

 

Fair enough!

 

The temptation will be there.....with the consequent appeal for even more funds.

 

It's a case of "if I had the money" then yes, the temptation would be there. Realistically, I just want to see it in as good a condition as Dwight D. Eisenhower (minus the silver valve gear!), as its still an important part of our history.

 

RE Stationmaster's point - put it this way - there seems to be an endless supply of cash for all the Bulleids to steam in preservation, and what percentage of their respective classes is preserved...?!

 

The LNER is severely under represented in many quarters, and happily the most high profile of their classes survives in six forms. I don't think it is any less important than the other A4s (including Mallard), as it has its own history and quirks that set it apart.

 

Like the report that says its steam operated bell got stuck once on a London - York trip, and rang all the way there...!

[coachmann]

I've done the buy a double deck bus and do it up thing when I was young and dead keen. At the time I was very nostalgic for lots of things that were from my childhood, however, as I've gotten older preservation seems less important. If this is a common reaction in old age, it will fall to young people to keep items already preserved in good order. A foreign loco might mean jack poo in the Canada today.

[Colin]

I don't see how anyone could insist that the locos be sold back to a British owner simply because said locos are British and haven't received enough TLC - surely had they not gone abroad back in 1964 or whenever thay would have been scrapped anyway. We do have 4(?) A4s already preserved in the UK as it is - would that there were as many Duchesses and A3s!

Does this mean that by rights all the foreign locos in Britain should also go "home"?

[Torn-on-the-platform]

Is it not true that DoC is the only engine left in a non-rusted BR applied coat of paint? It is a shame that the engine is in the state that its in. IIRC, the team that cosmetically restored Waddon were approached by the museum to do the same to DoC, obviously they havn't but atleast they are thinking about the loco's condition!

 

I'd love to see Waddon back home, and to a lesser extent the A4s, but they are flying the flag for British steam abroad and I think that that is important. We have plenty of terriers and at this moment in time, there isn't a need for anymore mainline A4s. We have foreign engines here, we can't realistically expect to keep all of our own!

 

I think that if we want to bring a loco back we should search for L&B Lew in Brazil

[Pixie]

Is it not true that DoC is the only engine left in a non-rusted BR applied coat of paint?

 

I think Winston Churchill at the NRM has the same claim, I'll happily be corrected though!

 

Pix

[Bon Accord]

I don't see how anyone could insist that the locos be sold back to a British owner simply because said locos are British and haven't received enough TLC - surely had they not gone abroad back in 1964 or whenever thay would have been scrapped anyway. We do have 4(?) A4s already preserved in the UK as it is - would that there were as many Duchesses and A3s!

 

 

Was it wrong, therefore, to repatriate Pendennis Castle and Repton?

Both had owners who were not able (for whatever reason) to look after the locos concerned and who were quite willing to sell those locos to individuals who were willing to pay for them.

[PhilH]

There is far more to the condition of a loco than the coat of paint on the tin round the outside - that, and a few dings here and there, is usually the least of the problems. There's no reason to suppose that materially the thing isn't in the same condition as it left the UK....be that good or bad.

[10800]

Was it wrong, therefore, to repatriate Pendennis Castle and Repton?

Both had owners who were not able (for whatever reason) to look after the locos concerned and who were quite willing to sell those locos to individuals who were willing to pay for them.

 

Willing seller, willing buyer - bit of a different situation to the main subject of the OP I think.

[Bon Accord]

Willing seller, willing buyer - bit of a different situation to the main subject of the OP I think.

 

Rod,

Perhaps. Whilst I certainly would not advocate demanding the return of either of those locos, the point I was trying to make is that if the respective museums are willing to sell, and someone is willing to buy, then what is really wrong with that?

[The Stationmaster]

RE Stationmaster's point - put it this way - there seems to be an endless supply of cash for all the Bulleids to steam in preservation, and what percentage of their respective classes is preserved...?!

 

 

There would appear to be 10.5 'Merchant Navies' in preservation/restoration so that is indeed a far higher percentage although I don't know how many are in/have been got back to working order (and the 0.5 obviously never will be of course) but I don't entirely see the point of the comparison in some respects. The reason there are so many MNs is undoubtedly because they survived long enough to - in most cases - be the subject of a rescue project. The A4s were never in quite that position - those that were withdrawn were fairly quickly cut-up; if any had survived the scrappy no doubt someone would have gone for them, but they weren't there to save.

 

Interesting perhaps to look at things a slightly different way: (talking of express passenger types) for example two 'Castles' were bought out of service in running order, one MN was bought out of service in running order, but three A4s, an A3 and an A2 were bought out of service in running order or not far off it. Unarguably the greatest effort in private preservation of large mainline locos at the end of steam was devoted to those of LNER design.

And is there 'an endless supply of cash' ? How many of those MNs have actually been restored to working order? Meanwhile another supply of private cash has done much to keep at least those three A4s in working order for as much of their post BR ownership as time, and that cash, have allowed. But none of this adds anything to a suggestion that the Canadians should give back a loco - that could, in my view, only be morally justifiable if the money was there (and guaranteed to continue to be there) to keep it in better long term condition than the Canadians have managed to do; is it, is there still the cash there to purchase and support more LNER pacifics?