Dominion of Canada - Returns to the UK

[Bon Accord]

Is it really relevant how many of them were purchased directly from BR service, and if so does that somehow make them less worthy of the attention of preservationists?

 

In terms of large express locomotives, we have the following:

 

From the SR: 11 MN's, 20 WC/BB's, 1 Lord Nelson and 1 King Arthur, 33 all told including thirty one Builleid pacifics alone, of which 18 have steamed in preservation and another couple are expected to return to steam this Summer. That's not too shabby at all when you consider most of them came from Barry. When you include SL and LN, then that's 20 locos which have steamed.

 

From the GWR we have 3 Kings, 8 Castles and 1 Star in preservation - 12 all told, of which 9 have steamed in preservation.

 

From the LMS we have 3 Princess Coronations, 2 Princess Royals, 2 Royal Scots and 4 Jubilees - 11 locos of which 9 have steamed in preservation with a 10th expected soon (Galatea).

 

From the LNER we have 6 A4's, 1 A3 , 1 A2 and a V2 - 9 locos, 7 of which are in the UK and those same 7 have all steamed (not a bad effort in itself, although 5 really did it by default since they were purchased in working order from BR).

 

I haven't included the various new build projects as they're not really relevant.

 

In terms of what is available, the LNER has done reasonably in the steaming stakes, but not so much in the numbers both of large locos and more noticeably in the smaller types.

 

Edited: Forgot Green Arrow!

[James]

Although I'd rather see the loco somewhere where the aparent care and attention could be given (60008 seems, by contrast, to be well looked after) I actually wonder if we should also turn our attention to some of the locos which 'we' built for export. So much of our industrial heritage has been lost as preservationists have preserved yet moe Bullied pacifics and Black 5s.

 

Colin Garrett expressed very similar views when i saw give deliver a lecture for the Friends of the NRM a few years back.

[Bon Accord]

Although I'd rather see the loco somewhere where the aparent care and attention could be given (60008 seems, by contrast, to be well looked after) I actually wonder if we should also turn our attention to some of the locos which 'we' built for export. So much of our industrial heritage has been lost as preservationists have preserved yet moe Bullied pacifics and Black 5s.

 

Colin Garrett expressed very similar views when i saw give deliver a lecture for the Friends of the NRM a few years back.

 

The issue there is one of interest, obviously UK preservationists will quite naturally look towards the domestic product more than anything else as it perhaps tends to be more relevant.

Whilst there is a place for a few demonstrations of what was built for export, this is reasonably represented already when we consider the Chinese loco at the NRM, exhibits in the Manc museum, the inclusion of an ex SA North British built loco in the new Glasgow museum, plus another Garratt which is preserved (in the open) at Summerlee.

We do have to ask if there Is there enough appetite beyond that for more foreign (although UK built) locos?

Funding is never going to be easy for exhibits which (at best) generate variable levels of interest, as important as they are, and which by and large would have difficulty being anything other than stuffed and mounted - a subsidiary but perhaps salient point when we remember working steam is perhaps the best advert the movement has, and that good number of the foreign locos in question would be unable to steam due to gauging issues (both of the physical size and track variety).

 

In that sense, the repatriation of Narrow Gauge locos/stock has far more going for it than the larger gauges - indeed I'd dare to say that the number of UK/European built locos designed for export which have returned to the UK and which are working is pretty decent.

[James]

All very relevent stuff! The number of NG locos which have been preserved do give a good representation of what we built for export.

 

Private preservationists are obviously going to presevre things which matter to them rather then what might ought to have been saved. Their slightly selfish motives have given us many wonderful examples of stock and buildings for our enjoyment.

 

I always wonder if the Chinese loco at the NRM is really the best example of what we used to do. I do wonder if some of the typically Victorian and Edwardian locos which ran in India and Pakistan may have been better examples and would have provided a direct link between British practice and what developed overseas and our export markets.

 

In all of this I think everyone must remember that you can't save everything and some things will be lost.

[The Stationmaster]

Is it really relevant how many of them were purchased directly from BR service, and if so does that somehow make them less worthy of the attention of preservationists?

 

 

 

I'm sorry if I didn't make my point clearly. It was simply that moans about lack of preserved 'large passenger' LNER locos are somewhat misleading as more of that Railway's designs were purchased out of BR service in , or near to, running order than were locos from any other of the Big Four companies. In other words the LNER received greater attention and ffinancial input from preservationists (in respect of large passenger locos) than did any other Company at the end of steam. And of course the 'purchase out of service' of LNER designs extended over a wider range than express passenger locos as happened with some of the other Companies' designs.

 

What has happened subsequently is basically an accident born of circumstance because preservationists and private lines have only been able to obtain what was available (until a group set to and built 'Tornado' from scratch). And what was available was what had languished in scrap yards and not been quickly cut-up but had survived long enough for interest and skills to develop and for money to be raised - and the simple fact is that there were very few LNER locos in the category of 'there to rescue'. You can't rewrite this sort of history because once a loco has been cut-up it has gone - end of story (until someone does a 'Tornado'). So it's no good moaning now about lack of preserved LNER locos - the time to have said it was back in the mid 1960s when, strange to relate, that was exactly what was being done anyway (and people were moaning about the other Companies being ignored or receiving less attention than the LNER).

 

As for n.g locos the situation is simple - they are small, they don't take up much space, and they are cheap because they are small and therefore have a lower scrap value. James is right to raise the point of the 'classic' earlier British outline locos built for export although many of them were not too much different from what was being built for home use and which is represented in preservation but still there is a good case for getting hold of a classic 0-6-0 or 4-4-0 if one becomes available and the project can be funded.

[Sir Hadyn]

 

I always wonder if the Chinese loco at the NRM is really the best example of what we used to do. I do wonder if some of the typically Victorian and Edwardian locos which ran in India and Pakistan may have been better examples and would have provided a direct link between British practice and what developed overseas and our export markets.

 

In all of this I think everyone must remember that you can't save everything and some things will be lost.

 

Thanks - we do also have a Sharp Stewart 4-8-0 tender loco from South Africa/Rhodesia (as was), which has just been restored at Tyseley.

[Sir Hadyn]

I think Winston Churchill at the NRM has the same claim, I'll happily be corrected though!

 

Pix

 

Sorry, it was repainted at Derby in 1979, I've seen the receipt in the file...

[James]

Thanks

I do detect a slight hint of sarcasm there...

 

I stand by what I say though - whilst the Chinese loco (and why do we call it chinese when it's British?!) is an excellent example of a loco built for export, especially as it differs from usual British practice I do wonder if there are other types which should have been in the collection. At least one of the main broad gauge types from the sub-continent would, I feel, have been able to really enhance the collection.

 

Although I realise money for Scotsman has been rasied specifically for the it, I wonder how much of our industrial heritage could have been saved, even if only to be restored cosmetically, had the same amount gone elsewhere. Academic I know...

 

we do also have a Sharp Stewart 4-8-0 tender loco from South Africa/Rhodesia (as was), which has just been restored at Tyseley.

Will this be coming to York?

[Sir Hadyn]

Hi Jamie, no sarcasm intended, it was just for info, and thanking you for your comment.

 

I quite understand the idea of a loco from the subcontinent, it was actively discussed at the end of Pakistani metre gauge steam, but cost and space ruled it out sadly. I suppose one could argue that at least there is the SPS 4-4-0 at Manchester.

 

And yes, the 4-8-0 will ultimately be coming to York, going into the redisplay of the Great Hall.

 

Cheers

Anthony

[Horsetan]

I don't see how anyone could insist that the locos be sold back to a British owner simply because said locos are British and haven't received enough TLC - .....Does this mean that by rights all the foreign locos in Britain should also go "home"?

 

Some of the German and French ones have....

[James]

Hi Jamie, no sarcasm intended, it was just for info, and thanking you for your comment.

Sorry - it did appear that you weren't impressed by my comment!

 

I quite understand the idea of a loco from the subcontinent, it was actively discussed at the end of Pakistani metre gauge steam, but cost and space ruled it out sadly. I suppose one could argue that at least there is the SPS 4-4-0 at Manchester.

Money is the limiting factor throughout sadly.

 

And yes, the 4-8-0 will ultimately be coming to York, going into the redisplay of the Great Hall.

I'll look forward to this

[Sir Hadyn]

Apologies James, not only did I appear rude, but I got your name wrong too... comes of having too many forums open at once...sorry!

[EddieB]

I'm sorry if I didn't make my point clearly. It was simply that moans about lack of preserved 'large passenger' LNER locos are somewhat misleading as more of that Railway's designs were purchased out of BR service in , or near to, running order than were locos from any other of the Big Four companies. In other words the LNER received greater attention and ffinancial input from preservationists (in respect of large passenger locos) than did any other Company at the end of steam. And of course the 'purchase out of service' of LNER designs extended over a wider range than express passenger locos as happened with some of the other Companies' designs.

 

 

Wasn't it because the LNER began to realise the historic value of some of its assets and set them aside for preservation (while Swindon was scrapping its "North Star")? Just as well the policy continued really, as unlike the other companies there was only one LNER locomotive that survived by virtue of being sent to Woodham Bros.

 

 

Personally I'm glad to see the British locomotive export industry well represented in preservation, though there are many gaps. Not just home-built examples, as there are a number of truly foreign locomotives preserved in this country. But what is the level of interest? A few years ago Paul Catchpole (of Locomotives International fame) produced a book entitled "Britain's World of Steam" covering all the locomotives built or that worked abroad and sent of repatriated to the UK. Sadly the book did not sell as well as anticipated and ended up being discounted to clear the shelves. A Bradford Barton title "British Built Steam Locomotives Overseas" trailed behind "Yet More Great Western Locomotives on Shed" and "LMS Locomotives in Action - Part 47".

 

The sad truth is that the majority of enthusiasts are very parochial about their little patch of Blighty, yet there is widespread ignorance about both the independent locomotive builders and their products exported to nearly every country that ever had a railway system. Those locomotives that we bring back are often vandalised to represent fictitious British locomotives (please not the Turkish 8Fs).

 

Is railway modelling to blame? Do we feel more comfortable when preservation is a 304.8mm/ft representation of the beloved branch line terminii of smaller scales?

[EddieB]

Thanks - we do also have a Sharp Stewart 4-8-0 tender loco from South Africa/Rhodesia (as was), which has just been restored at Tyseley.

 

I take it that this is the erstwhile Zambesi Sawmills loco once belonging to David Shepherd, formerly displayed at Whipsnade and Bristol (among other places)?

 

Not to forget also a South African 25NC at Quainton Road and a GF Garratt at Manchester, a Darjeeling B tank somewhere...

[D605Eagle]

I take it that this is the erstwhile Zambesi Sawmills loco once belonging to David Shepherd, formerly displayed at Whipsnade and Bristol (among other places)?

 

Not to forget also a South African 25NC at Quainton Road and a GF Garratt at Manchester, a Darjeeling B tank somewhere...

And the Egyptian SMU

[James]

Apologies James, not only did I appear rude, but I got your name wrong too...

Don't worry! And I've been called much worse!

[G-BOAF]

Couple of observations, please excuse my lack of quoting.

Things get Dinged! I agree - but when 37 D6700 had the incident at Barrow Hill, IIRC it was professionally repaired soon afterwards, and the NRM are now offering it for mainline work. This indicates the standard of the repair The fact that Number 10 has not been repaired 4 years on is disgraceful. One can only hope that the damage is only skin deap, and it hasn't bent the buffer beam, or worse, buckled the frames. I can't imagine the latter two being easily repaired out there...

 

With the Elgin marbles - if we were not looking after them, they should be repatriated. But we are looking after them, and they are in one of the world's best museums, and very high profile exhibits with international exposure.. The similarity between the A4 and the Marbles is that both would probably not be in existence now had they not moved overseas! I would be very surprised if 60010 didn't get more attention (and use!) in the UK than Canada.

 

Also, the condition of the paint is awful. Yes the NRM has had its cases of decay in the past (APT, LMS Class 502 EMU to name but a few). BUT properly stored, there is no reason why the A4 should have deteriorated; 4003, 4073, 46235 all have paint jobs that are over 50 years old.

 

Of the two N American A4s, 60010 is the one to worry about. 60008 is, I believe, in a climate controlled display, OK has painted rods, and I read somewhere a wrecked middle big end after being towed without realising it had 3 cylinders!), but it is safe and well looked after.

 

 

Finally, I disagree that the Half MN will never steam again. A casual glance suggests all it needs is a new RH cylinder, bit of tender and cab platework, new inner and outer firebox material welded in, ditto smokebox, and presumably a new boiler barrel (assuming that you can't weld such an item). Aside from the Boiler barrel, all the work has already been done on other bulleids (34027 Cylinder, umpteen entire tenders etc).... I assume the motion is original. One would argue that it would be an easier restoration than some Barry wrecks (Blue Star needs a new RH Cylinder also). Now there's a thought...

[PhilH]

and it hasn't bent the buffer beam, or worse, buckled the frames. I can't imagine the latter two being easily repaired out there...

 

 

....but can be done. 60019's frames were indeed buckled, so when we were restoring the thing on the MHR we had to chop the front 12 feet from both sides, get new sections fabricated and welded back in - this obviously being the bits of tin which carried the inside and outside cylinders etc. It had to be a good job, and the way the thing has performed since our restoration would suggest that it was indeed just that.

 

Lumps from the old frames can be seen around the railway, mainly being used for tables and benches!

[G-BOAF]

....but can be done. 60019's frames were indeed buckled, so when we were restoring the thing on the MHR we had to chop the front 12 feet from both sides, get new sections fabricated and welded back in - this obviously being the bits of tin which carried the inside and outside cylinders etc. It had to be a good job, and the way the thing has performed since our restoration would suggest that it was indeed just that.

 

Lumps from the old frames can be seen around the railway, mainly being used for tables and benches!

 

I thought they were cracked rather than buckled?

Being a preservation society, shouldn't the secions of old frame secions have been preserved - part of Bittern's history, and indeed her identity....

the NRM have 46229s original cab sides....

[PhilH]

I thought they were cracked rather than buckled?

Being a preservation society, shouldn't the secions of old frame secions have been preserved - part of Bittern's history, and indeed her identity....

the NRM have 46229s original cab sides....

 

You could well be right about them being cracked as well as bent. As far as the other bit goes the MHRPS, which is a different entity from the Mid Hants Railway, did not own 60019. We were restoring the thing for the owner, so it was up to him what happened to the old steelwork.

 

Anyway. as I said, they are preserved - as tables and benches....

[D605Eagle]

 

 

Of the two N American A4s, 60010 is the one to worry about. 60008 is, I believe, in a climate controlled display, OK has painted rods, and I read somewhere a wrecked middle big end after being towed without realising it had 3 cylinders!), but it is safe and well looked after.

 

 

I should be shocked by that, but sadly I'm not. Its just typical......you can guess the rest

[jamie92208]

 

Finally, I disagree that the Half MN will never steam again. A casual glance suggests all it needs is a new RH cylinder, bit of tender and cab platework, new inner and outer firebox material welded in, ditto smokebox, and presumably a new boiler barrel (assuming that you can't weld such an item). Aside from the Boiler barrel, all the work has already been done on other bulleids (34027 Cylinder, umpteen entire tenders etc).... I assume the motion is original. One would argue that it would be an easier restoration than some Barry wrecks (Blue Star needs a new RH Cylinder also). Now there's a thought...

 

Yes a new boiler barrel and cylinder would be feasible. As far as I remember the running gear must be in good condition as it was passed fit to be towed p to York on the mainline. I seem to remember seeing pictures of it in one of the several convoys that came uyp from London to York when the NRM was being set up.

 

Jamie

[PhilH]

 

Of the two N American A4s, 60010 is the one to worry about. 60008 is, I believe, in a climate controlled display, OK has painted rods, and I read somewhere a wrecked middle big end after being towed without realising it had 3 cylinders!), but it is safe and well looked after.

 

 

That's only going to be the brasses though surely?

[Sir Hadyn]

Yes a new boiler barrel and cylinder would be feasible. As far as I remember the running gear must be in good condition as it was passed fit to be towed p to York on the mainline. I seem to remember seeing pictures of it in one of the several convoys that came uyp from London to York when the NRM was being set up.

 

Jamie

 

On recent examination to see if it was fit for towing, the tyres aren't very clever

[Horsetan]

Yes a new boiler barrel and cylinder would be feasible.

 

You'd have to ask Jeremy Hosking very nicely if he would think about selling the bits from 35022 (which, before he owned it, was going to be a very long-term project to recreate the original air-smoothed MN with chain valve gear)....

 

As far as I remember the running gear must be in good condition as it was passed fit to be towed p to York on the mainline. I seem to remember seeing pictures of it in one of the several convoys that came up from London to York when the NRM was being set up.

 

That was in the '70s! Are there not much tighter safety standards for rail now?