Guest jonte Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Perhaps I'm guilty of over-egging the pudding here as I know this topic's been done to death, but perhaps it might prove of interest to one or two, tired of lugging round the ubiquitous two by ones and are considering venturing down a 'lighter' path. Anyway, whilst conducting a long overdue tidy up of my railway room/office t'other day, I came across this cob web strewn item: The photos are of a single (open topped) baseboard with dimensions of approx. 2' x 1' built to the Barry Norman 'girder' method of construction, except I've replaced the ply with foamboard strips of either 3 or 5mm thickness (might actually be a mixture of both if my memory serves me right). Built as an experiment to test the viability of foamboard as an alternative form of construction after reading about Chris Nevard's Somerset micro (Catcott), I didn't get round to finishing it off and it's been left unpainted/unsealed for around twelve months in my only occasionally heated outside office - like most people's garages/sheds really. Surprisingly, it's none the worse for wear and is as plumb/true as the day the PVA glue (holding it all together) dried. With a top of say 4mm and some paint to seal it, provided the clips/hinges/bolts joining each to its neighbouring board were fastened to the reinforced wooden parts, I see no reason why this method of construction shouldn't give a long and durable service to the portable layout builder who's given up weight lifting in favour of a more sedantary life style. Any thoughts? Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Bus Driver Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yes! Foamboard is amazing stuff. Easy to cut and strong. The plan I have is to simply construct a ply frame to take weight for stands, etc as the foamboard is quite easily impact damaged, but construct the battens and surface from foamboard. It's light and strong provided you use the offcuts as bracing, and you can glue it together with a glue gun (I might need to replace mine as it was a Woolworths one and I can't seem to find the correct size glue sticks...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yes! Foamboard is amazing stuff. Easy to cut and strong. The plan I have is to simply construct a ply frame to take weight for stands, etc as the foamboard is quite easily impact damaged, but construct the battens and surface from foamboard. It's light and strong provided you use the offcuts as bracing, and you can glue it together with a glue gun (I might need to replace mine as it was a Woolworths one and I can't seem to find the correct size glue sticks...) Thanks for the reply, The Evil Bus Driver. I'm glad you agree. I overlooked that part: yes, it's prone to impact damage. However, your solution of employing a sub base to take the strain sounds ideal. Out of interest, is there anybody out there whose built a portable layout using these methods? I know I referred to Chris Nevard in my earlier post, however, I think he ended up covering the whole lot in ply - which rather defeats the object? Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campaman Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yes! Foamboard is amazing stuff. Easy to cut and strong. The plan I have is to simply construct a ply frame to take weight for stands, etc as the foamboard is quite easily impact damaged, but construct the battens and surface from foamboard. It's light and strong provided you use the offcuts as bracing, and you can glue it together with a glue gun (I might need to replace mine as it was a Woolworths one and I can't seem to find the correct size glue sticks...) Wilkinsons may help with the the glue sticks if the ones you are after are the thinner ones. I have two hot glue guns, one takes the standard size the other thinner ones that I get from wilkinsons in the craft section Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 , I think he ended up covering the whole lot in ply - which rather defeats the object? Jonte Actually no. If Chris used 2/3mm ply the weight saving is enormous and the strength and rigidity huge. The ply makes a wonderful surface for applying glues which would dissolve or soak into the foam. Foam is notorious for damage. Most people think that is about breaking up into chips but draw a line on it with pencil, press a little too hard and bingo a permanent and unsightly dent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Mechanically, with the sort of fabricated girder construction you have used, more than strong enough. The use of a sub base or hard points from ply to take point loads such as support stands is sound. I have had a couple of fair size PVA bonded architectural models made from this material in my unheated outbuilding for some years, not a hint of trouble in terms of stability, so I would have no worries on that score. There is a potential acoustic problem however, as I discovered when tinkering with the same idea, and it is to do with the lightness of the material. This helps it to function more effectively as a loudspeaker diaphragm when excited by a source of mechanical energy, and the lightness means that higher frequencies are efficiently coupled to the air when compared with a more massive material like plywood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Some of the members at Ormesby Hall built a 16' exhibition layout using the methods described and it goes out to local shows. It's based on Robin Hood's bay and trades under the name 'Skaledale Bay'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted June 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 10, 2011 If you added a thin ply fascia cut to the scenic profile just a you might with a timber base and a thin ply backscene you would provide protection from impact damage and still retain a light rigid structure. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I built a micro layout with it, and a last-minute fiddle yard - both using 10mm board assembled with PVA and masking tape to hold the joints while the glue set. I really enjoyed the experience and would consider foamboard before timber for future projects - in fact there's a new sheet of 10mm in my garage earmarked for use soon. I tend to use Styrofoam scenery and face everything with 3mm MDF profile boards. The Styrofoam helps keep things square, the MDF protects against knocks and gives a nice solid result. I believe Chris Nevard uses aero-modelling ply for the same thing, which is lighter but dearer. Here's mine in bits: and tidied up and painted: and here's the longer fiddle yard - s'cuse the dodgy paint: The 10mm board needs only simple bracing - the Whitemarsh fiddle yard is four feet long with (I think) three cross braces and diagonals in the boxes they form, and it's not bent so far The trickiest bit is getting the cuts square so that the cut edges can be neatly butt-jointed. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted June 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 10, 2011 This is my module for the YMR layout. It's all built out of 5mm foamboard, glued with Anita's Tacky glue (quick setting pva). Early construction shot : Completed shot : Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 The extensions to Portwilliam use 5mm (I think) foamboard doubled up and glued with no nails. I faced one board with 6mm ply which kind of defeated the object but the rest seems pretty stable so far. However, I stored some spare sheets in the garage, on top of a cupboard under a corrugated cement board roof, and they warped in the heat last summer. The foam has distorted badly on a couple of them. They were free from a skip so nothing lost but it's very annoying. One potential problem I can forsee is that damp could cause the card facing to delaminate. Even if it doesn't separate from the foam, if it separates from itself at a glued joint you're in bother. I'm a convert though, I can lift a 4' x 1' fiddle yard board on and off the top shelf in the study with one hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 What paint do people use on foamboard? I used some for part of a pantomime set, and it warped slightly after a couple of coats of emulsion paint (I'd sprayed it with flamebar first but it seemed OK with that). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I paint the MDF attached to the foamboard with a general purpose primer and water-based enamel, but not the board itself. I have heard other people say that if you use something water-based you need to apply the same thing to both sides to avoid warping. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted June 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 10, 2011 What paint do people use on foamboard? (I'd sprayed it with flamebar first but it seemed OK with that). Flamebar? I take it is a kind of fire retardant? I don't think you need to apply that to foamboard. I have some foamboard and my friend was curious to know how resistant to fire it is so I put a match to a few scrap pieces and found that the foam and paper does not catch fire, only melts if the flame is held to it. So I concluded that foamboard is fire resistant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Nevard Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I used 3mm ply as an outer shell and 6mm on the ends of Catcott, the layout is still VERY VERY light (I have to G clamp it to the trestles at shows, because it it easily knocked off should some unwashed oaf rest on it), but can take impacts when chucking it in to the car etc. Being honest, I don't think I'd use it for anything bigger than a micro, and wouldn't even consider it for a layout kept in a high moisture area like a damp remote garage or shed, because unless well braced WILL warp or possibly even de-laminate in such conditions. However, Catcott lives in the house, and 3 years down the road has suffered no warping or deformation as such. Basically enjoy it, but it is not a direct replacement for more established materials like ply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted June 11, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2011 I used 3mm ply as an outer shell and 6mm on the ends of Catcott, the layout is still VERY VERY light... It makes him look ( even more ) like Superman when he's carrying a 6 ft plus layout, over his head, with just one hand ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Mechanically, with the sort of fabricated girder construction you have used, more than strong enough. The use of a sub base or hard points from ply to take point loads such as support stands is sound. I have had a couple of fair size PVA bonded architectural models made from this material in my unheated outbuilding for some years, not a hint of trouble in terms of stability, so I would have no worries on that score. There is a potential acoustic problem however, as I discovered when tinkering with the same idea, and it is to do with the lightness of the material. This helps it to function more effectively as a loudspeaker diaphragm when excited by a source of mechanical energy, and the lightness means that higher frequencies are efficiently coupled to the air when compared with a more massive material like plywood. So then, it doubles as set of drums Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Some of the members at Ormesby Hall built a 16' exhibition layout using the methods described and it goes out to local shows. It's based on Robin Hood's bay and trades under the name 'Skaledale Bay'. I shall have to check this one out, jwealleans. Many thanks, Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 If you added a thin ply fascia cut to the scenic profile just a you might with a timber base and a thin ply backscene you would provide protection from impact damage and still retain a light rigid structure. Don Thanks Donw Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I built a micro layout with it, and a last-minute fiddle yard - both using 10mm board assembled with PVA and masking tape to hold the joints while the glue set. I really enjoyed the experience and would consider foamboard before timber for future projects - in fact there's a new sheet of 10mm in my garage earmarked for use soon. I tend to use Styrofoam scenery and face everything with 3mm MDF profile boards. The Styrofoam helps keep things square, the MDF protects against knocks and gives a nice solid result. I believe Chris Nevard uses aero-modelling ply for the same thing, which is lighter but dearer. Here's mine in bits: and tidied up and painted: and here's the longer fiddle yard - s'cuse the dodgy paint: The 10mm board needs only simple bracing - the Whitemarsh fiddle yard is four feet long with (I think) three cross braces and diagonals in the boxes they form, and it's not bent so far The trickiest bit is getting the cuts square so that the cut edges can be neatly butt-jointed. Will Dodgy paint? I don't believe a word of it. Surely it's a personal identification mark in the event of theft? I think you're right about Chris' choice of aeromodelling products. I remember pricing it and it was very expensive - like the corrugated MDF he uses for backscenes Nice to see that someone's proved the point, Will. Excellent modelling BTW. Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 This is my module for the YMR layout. It's all built out of 5mm foamboard, glued with Anita's Tacky glue (quick setting pva). Early construction shot : Completed shot : This just had to be another Stubby masterpiece. Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 The extensions to Portwilliam use 5mm (I think) foamboard doubled up and glued with no nails. I faced one board with 6mm ply which kind of defeated the object but the rest seems pretty stable so far. However, I stored some spare sheets in the garage, on top of a cupboard under a corrugated cement board roof, and they warped in the heat last summer. The foam has distorted badly on a couple of them. They were free from a skip so nothing lost but it's very annoying. One potential problem I can forsee is that damp could cause the card facing to delaminate. Even if it doesn't separate from the foam, if it separates from itself at a glued joint you're in bother. I'm a convert though, I can lift a 4' x 1' fiddle yard board on and off the top shelf in the study with one hand. Thanks stuartp. I'm sure though (although not certain)that provided the card is sealed with either a suitable paint or PVA based substance, it would stand the test of humidity/damp within reason of course. Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 What paint do people use on foamboard? I used some for part of a pantomime set, and it warped slightly after a couple of coats of emulsion paint (I'd sprayed it with flamebar first but it seemed OK with that). I've recently painted my baseboards - the traverser of which contains a couple of foamboard cross-pieces - with oil based undercoat thinned with white spirit and it's fine. Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Flamebar? I take it is a kind of fire retardant? I don't think you need to apply that to foamboard. I have some foamboard and my friend was curious to know how resistant to fire it is so I put a match to a few scrap pieces and found that the foam and paper does not catch fire, only melts if the flame is held to it. So I concluded that foamboard is fire resistant. Most reassuring Welly. Thanks. Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I used 3mm ply as an outer shell and 6mm on the ends of Catcott, the layout is still VERY VERY light (I have to G clamp it to the trestles at shows, because it it easily knocked off should some unwashed oaf rest on it), but can take impacts when chucking it in to the car etc. Being honest, I don't think I'd use it for anything bigger than a micro, and wouldn't even consider it for a layout kept in a high moisture area like a damp remote garage or shed, because unless well braced WILL warp or possibly even de-laminate in such conditions. However, Catcott lives in the house, and 3 years down the road has suffered no warping or deformation as such. Basically enjoy it, but it is not a direct replacement for more established materials like ply. From the horse's mouth! Thanks Chris. Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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