LNER/ BR(E) Locomotive Concensus Thread

[Ravenser]

As the 2010 product announcement season is beginning, we have started discussing gaps in RTR ; and the subject of providing something other than Pacifics for LNER/BR(E) modellers has arisen again.

 

For those who weren't around at the time , Great Northern's LNER Locomotive Consensus thread was an attempt (largely successful) at a rational discussion of the possibilities, with a view to building a concensus behind a shortlist of potential RTR models which would meet the key unmet needs of most LNER/ BR(E) modellers in 4mm and provide a balanced fleet. The question was not "what do I want?" but "what classes would best command widespread support /sales amongst LNER/BR modellers?" And the flip side of this was - "would you be willing to buy the model and support it in polls and lobbying , if it was your second/third choice option in that category?"

 

In short it was not a thread in which to ask for the Worsborough Garrett as RTR

 

Here's the link - all 30 pages and 731 posts of one of our most substantial and intelligent discussions

 

LNER Loco Consensus Thread - RMWeb

 

really, this should be the starting point for any future discussion of the subject

 

Since the thread started in Dec 2007, there have been two significant improvements in the situation:

 

- Bachmann announced the ROD/04 early last year and release is expected in Quarter1 2010. This was the strongest candidate of the lot, and radically improves the situation for heavy freight traffic and the Southern Area

 

- Dapol/Model Rail have announced a Sentinel (not clear if it's Y1 or Y3). This will provide some kind of shunter , albeit very small. They were quite widespread in both the NE and Southern Area , with one example in the Scottish Area , and the last was withdrawn from departmental service in 1964 ( revenue service 1959)

 

This means that those modelling the Southern Area - hitherto very badly served - will now have two freight locos to modern standards, and this may influence the cases for Southern Area 0-6-0s , and shunting tanks in all Areas

 

On the other hand the situation in terms of passenger engines other than Pacifics remains as bad as ever

 

At the margin, recent Heljan announcements will have some impact on those modelling the final years of steam in E. Anglia, the southern end of the GN main line and some parts of Scotland - class 15s, Baby Deltics and the recently announced Railbuses will meet some needs on steam/diesel layouts . They may form part of a set of models needed to model late 50s/early 60s E. Anglia - meaning that only a couple of steam locos are required to open up the GE section as a subject , and thus making it easier to build a commercial case for certain candidates (in the way that the case for the M7 and espcially T9 was strengthened by the other models available for the SW Division of the Southern)

[Forester]

Perhaps 30 pages and 731 posts have said all that needs to be said.

Time to let this one go?

[bike2steam]

Perhaps 30 pages and 731 posts have said all that needs to be said.

Time to let this one go?

 

Sorry but I would tend to go along with that.

For possible rtr, LNER loco classes are a minefield, with such a large variety of classes, you'd be hard pressed to please the majority, possibly why manufacturers have only 'skimmed the surface'.

But having said that, the J15 would be my favourite candidate, and not because I can just remember them at Epping and Ongar, but some NBR fan wouldn't like it.

[Adams442T]

J15 for me too. An attractive small 0-6-0, virtually unchanged from its intro in 1883 and covering a fair area on various duties. Lasting till I think 1962? with BR and a preserved example to measure to boot! Perhaps the first new Dapol 4mm tender loco?

[edcayton]

I'd have thought a K1 mogul would be the nearest to all things for all men, followed by the L1 tank. Problem with the L1 is it looks very similar to the V1/3, and is south-ish in the same way that the V1 is north-ish. I would buy both, but I would also not resist a J15 for long either!

[Ravenser]

I'd have thought a K1 mogul would be the nearest to all things for all men, followed by the L1 tank. Problem with the L1 is it looks very similar to the V1/3, and is south-ish in the same way that the V1 is north-ish. I would buy both, but I would also not resist a J15 for long either!

 

For the record, V1s were used on the GE Section until replaced by new L1s

[coachmann]

The old RMweb LNER Thread derived my my initial thread suggesting that a GCR/ROD/LNER Class 04 2-8-0 would be a good idea for a RTR model seeing as at least 10 variants could be produced. We got our 04 thanks to Bachmann.

 

As things stood, that same thread also came up with a companion GCR/LNER D11 4-4-0 because it would suit large areas of the LNER and Scotland and because people who purchased the 04 would proably go for the 4-4-0 as part of a 'family'. Personally I've no axe to grind here.

 

From what I have gathered from other threads there is a demand for an LNER 0-6-0 tender loco (all the regions have asked for 0-6-0's), but of course there are also those who want 'extremes' like P2 2-8-2s and Atlantic's. Not an easy market when wants are so diversified.

 

This is why I think it might be an idea to concentrate on a small handful of locos if this thread is not to run away into the usual wish list...

 

I back the L1 2-6-4T.

 

Larry G.

[JohnR]

For want of repeating myself, I would have to argue that a J37 or J38 0-6-0 would be a good choice - mainstay of the scottish freight scene, long lasting etc. A director for a 4-4-0 would be good, as you could have both the GC ones and the scotch directors.

[Invicta]

The old RMweb LNER Thread derived my my initial thread suggesting that a GCR/ROD/LNER Class 04 2-8-0 would be a good idea for a RTR model seeing as at least 10 variants could be produced. We got our 04 thanks to Bachmann.

 

As things stood, that same thread also came up with a companion GCR/LNER D11 4-4-0 because it would suit large areas of the LNER and Scotland and because people who purchased the 04 would proably go for the 4-4-0 as part of a 'family'. Personally I've no axe to grind here.

 

From what I have gathered from other threads there is a demand for an LNER 0-6-0 tender loco (all the regions have asked for 0-6-0's), but of course there are also those who want 'extremes' like P2 2-8-2s and Atlantic's. Not an easy market when wants are so diversified.

 

This is why I think it might be an idea to concentrate on a small handful of locos if this thread is not to run away into the usual wish list...

 

I back Ravensers L1 2-6-4T and K1 2-6-0.

 

Larry G.

 

 

 

Thinking back to the original thread, I'd cetainly agree on the D11. I'm not an LNER/BR(E) modeller, so I'm pretty lost once we get into the various 0-6-0 permutations

 

How do we stand on upgrades/retools of some of the older LNER/BR(E) locos that have been in the Hornby/Bachmann catalogues for years? Without reading back through the original thread, and betraying my clear lack of LNER motive power knowledge, I'm thinking of the B1 (large class, widespread use, lasted until the end of steam), B17 (less widepread? but does the length of time it's been in the Hornby catalogue suggest it's a popular one in the marketplace?) and B12 (again, seems to have been a stalwart of the Triang & Hornby ranges since the dawn of time), J39, N2 etc?

[PaulG]

No question J-15 or N-7; both lasted to the end of steam in East Anglia in 1962 and are now preserved.

 

Only slight doubt I have with the J-15 is the manufacturers getting enough weight over the wheels; but as the NRM have the slightly bigger J-17, perhaps that would be a better option.

 

All three would look good on a layout alongside the new Bachmann Craven dmu, Heljan Class 15 and W&M 4-wheel railbus.

 

Regards

Paul

PS. Just need some pre-grouping carriage stock, GER would be first choice, but a large number of bogie carriage stock from the GCR and NER were cascaded to East Anglia, so other options are available, including LNER non-vestibuled stock.

[S.A.C Martin]

 

 

I back the L1 2-6-4T.

 

Larry G.

 

NO!!! I've just started kitbashing one...

 

I agree that the L1 would be a logical choice for a large tank engine. The D11 was a choice everyone agreed on for the above reasons - but the J21, I thought, rather than the J15 was the small goods engine everyone wanted?

[Mallard60022]

NO!!! I've just started kitbashing one...

 

I agree that the L1 would be a logical choice for a large tank engine. The D11 was a choice everyone agreed on for the above reasons - but the J21, I thought, rather than the J15 was the small goods engine everyone wanted?

 

Having struggled with a donated Gibson J15 (go on then, laugh) and still not finished the d**n thing I would seriously go for a J15 or even two! Let's face it, the real thing is alive and lurking somewhere in Norfolk so it could be tape measure time? When I saw it at Barrow Hill it looked magnificent.

Oh yes, L1 too please.

Sincerely, S. U. Burban

[coachmann]

Could any NER and GNR 0-6-0's be found on GER or GCR metals? Could GER 0-6-0's be found on NER, GNR or GCR lines? Then there are the Scottish 0-6-0's. This is one way of looking a the market.

 

Another is to say, look I live in Cambridge and I want *****... Never mind that it is useless to anyone in Newcastle, Leeds and Grantham.

 

A third way is to consider the wider market, the non-commited who just might be Hornby and Bachmann's biggest customers? What would an 0-6-0 tender loco mean to them? Or is the "real enthusiast" market actually quite big?

 

I think the only way the two main players could ever hope to please everyone would be to produce say a GNR J6, NER J20-something, GCR J11, GER J15 and NBR J37 or whatever. Bachmann presumably thought the J39 was the best all-rounder so if they were to upgrade this loco with a modern chassis, they could at least consider the smaller wheeled Scottish J38 as well.

[Ravenser]

The old RMweb LNER Thread derived my my initial thread suggesting that a GCR/ROD/LNER Class 04 2-8-0 would be a good idea for a RTR model seeing as at least 10 variants could be produced. We got our 04 thanks to Bachmann.

 

As things stood, that same thread also came up with a companion GCR/LNER D11 4-4-0 because it would suit large areas of the LNER and Scotland and because people who purchased the 04 would proably go for the 4-4-0 as part of a 'family'. Personally I've no axe to grind here.

 

From what I have gathered from other threads there is a demand for an LNER 0-6-0 tender loco (all the regions have asked for 0-6-0's), but of course there are also those who want 'extremes' like P2 2-8-2s and Atlantic's. Not an easy market when wants are so diversified.

 

This is why I think it might be an idea to concentrate on a small handful of locos if this thread is not to run away into the usual wish list...

 

I back the L1 2-6-4T.

 

Larry G.

 

Invicta

 

Thinking back to the original thread, I'd cetainly agree on the D11. I'm not an LNER/BR(E) modeller, so I'm pretty lost once we get into the various 0-6-0 permutations

 

How do we stand on upgrades/retools of some of the older LNER/BR(E) locos that have been in the Hornby/Bachmann catalogues for years? Without reading back through the original thread, and betraying my clear lack of LNER motive power knowledge, I'm thinking of the B1 (large class, widespread use, lasted until the end of steam), B17 (less widepread? but does the length of time it's been in the Hornby catalogue suggest it's a popular one in the marketplace?) and B12 (again, seems to have been a stalwart of the Triang & Hornby ranges since the dawn of time), J39, N2 etc?

 

Since the original thread , we've seen the Bachmann O4 (now imminent) and the Model Rail/Dapol Sentinel . Does this mean that the need for an 0-6-0 (or even an 0-6-0T) may not be the first priority now ? - especially as the J39 (admittedly an old model with a split chassis) is still available

 

However there has been no change at all in the lack of medium sized passenger engines. If anything the situation is worse as out of production models have been out of production that bit longer. Below 4-6-0s all we have is the K3 - hardly a typical secondary passenger loco

 

This seems to divide into 3 categories.

 

- Medium sized tender engines:

 

The D11 was our strong favourite as the "consensus" 4-4-0, ahead of D49 and D16 Clauds. That ranking was confirmed in the MREMag poll early this year, and the D11 Director seems to command a lot of support. The rationale here was an assumption that Hornby may follow the T9 and Schools with 4-4-0s for the other groups

 

However not all medium sized passenger locos were 4-4-0s. K1s are an obvious possibility (albeit only post war) , and Atlantics have been floated in other quarters . The catch with the 4-4-2s is that they had all gone by 1951, although it has been repeatedly suggested that a C1 Atlantic and a Marsh LBSC Atlantic could be treated as varients of the same model

 

It seems sensible to keep pushing for the D11 as this seems to have gained some momentum. Consistant support may well translate into a model

 

- Large Passenger Tank

 

This got less discussion last time from us , but there has been some active debate on MREMag recently . An L1 seems favoured by many but is only post war. However a strong case for the A5 has been mounted on MREMag - they were surprisingly widespread throughout the LNER system at different times, and were introduced 34 years earlier and lasted almost as long. More livery possibilities

 

The lesser contenders seem to be N2 and N7 - both much more restricted geographically , and a serviceable RTR N2 was available for quite a few years, reducing potential demand

 

 

- Retool of existing RTR "second XI" express locos.

 

Candidates here are B1 , B12, B17 and V2. and an almost equal spread for B17 and B12 , though the MREMag poll leaned heavily towards B17. The Bachmann locos seem to be regarded as cosmetically better than Hornby

 

There seemed much less interest in retooling the V3, J39, or N2

 

On the freight side:

 

The three strong contenders for an 0-6-0, judging by several sources, seem to be J6, J15 and J27. The J15 was our top choice in the original thread and showed strongly in the MREMag poll - However J6 showed much more strongly in the poll. [since the voting was by drop down menu , are we seeing what the Aussies call "the donkey vote" - undecided votors tend to cast a vote for names at the top of the list? ]

 

Shunting needs have been eased by the Sentinel and perhaps we need to focus on a limited number of categories since we are only likley to see one or two new models a year

 

The "consensus" slate of candidates to support would therefore seem to be (categories in order of priority):

 

Medium sized passenger tender engines: D11, ? K1

 

Large Passenger Tank L1, A5

 

New 0-6-0 J6, J15, J27

 

Retooled RTR B17

 

We talked last time about the benefits of a coherent theme across a group of locos reinforcing sales (eg the SW Division theme in Hornby's Southern models). There are 2 obvious themes here - ex GC (O4, D11, A5) - with Scottish benefits , or GE (J15, B17, L1, K1 , with Dapol Sentinel and Heljan Cl15 and Railbuses)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bike2steam]

Ok, let's look at this from another angle, off the former lines of the LNER, those classes that wandered elsewhere in their work, so possibly bringing them into the layouts of non LNER modellers. Such as B1's to Bristol/Bath on passenger,04's (mostly /7 & /8's) to Bristol on freight, K1's to South Wales on freight, J39's to Bristol on sugar beet, L1's to Stratford-On-Avon (Town-S&MJR) on route learning. The GCR even penetrated Wales, the CLC various parts of the North West.GNR to Stafford.

As they say, the possibilities are endless.

And there's me stretching this thread.

[JohnR]

Ok, let's look at this from another angle, off the former lines of the LNER, those classes that wandered elsewhere in their work, so possibly bringing them into the layouts of non LNER modellers. Such as B1's to Bristol/Bath on passenger,04's (mostly /7 & /8's) to Bristol on freight, K1's to South Wales on freight, J39's to Bristol on sugar beet, L1's to Stratford-On-Avon (Town-S&MJR) on route learning. The GCR even penetrated Wales, the CLC various parts of the North West.GNR to Stafford.

As they say, the possibilities are endless.

And there's me stretching this thread.

On that basis, many of the ex-LNER types in Scotland could be cited, being used on ex-LMS routes north of the border.

[The Black Hat]

Firstly, I disagree with the comments that this kind of discussion is irrelavent. The changing nature of the market with new models being produced will make us change our opinions and as a result alter this conversation with new information and facts coming to light.

 

Secondly, my view is (which Ive stated in the 'Shape of things to come' discussion), that more models will sell, if there are other engines available that will augement the collection. As a result the North East region has a strong case for further releases to allow the entire region to be modelled effectively and accurately, given some models are alredy made. The Ivatt 43xxx and 46xxx were moved over from the Midland region, and the BR standards, 2, 3 and 4 were commonplace amongst other bigger standards like the 9F. Later LNER designs such as the K1, were delivered into the auspices of British railways, yet with just a few North Eastern Railway pedigree engines such as the G5, J21, J27 and Q6, with the aforementioned K1 virtually any shed the in the 51 area and wider North East region could be modelled. Especially when you add the mainline engines A1, A2, A3 and A4, as well as other 'green' diesels that have been done as part of the way that diesel engines have been covered.

 

The G5 has a chassis waiting for it by using the Hornby M7, and given the G5 is to be the next new built engine to run on standard gauge in a timescale that makes Tornado look amature, it would be brilliant for Hornby to model this and release it on the back of such publicity. The Q6 has a chassis waiting too, by using the Bachmann super-D block and I dont think Bachmann didnt think this when they annouced and made the latter.

 

So a fair bif of hard work is already done for the manufacturing companies. I think they such models being released would be very good sellers. The G5 is a cute and powerful engine, while the Q6 has elegence in appearance combined with raw sheer power and simplistic design.

 

I wouldnt want a J15, and while many would the chassis could be shared to make the J21 Id crave for. But Eastern region proper might suffer from the fact that some engines needed to model the whole fleet in the area, simply arent available or are by means of a now crude and out of date model.

 

Given that the scope for the posibility of starting the North Eastern region and then expanding south wards would mean that the prospect of sales is good and on the back of a reccession, that would be important for the companies. Also important would be that sales would be in the new models they make, but also of exisiting ones so join the fleet to model an area or shed.

 

Id hope that the region is given the preference and models that we all would like, but our Western region counterparts might think otherwise....

[Owen]

Without wanting to divulge this topic into a wishlist thread, I would add my haypenny that a J15 would also be my favourite candidate. I work on the NNR where 65462 is based, but sadly no one from Hornby/Bachmann has been in recent years to take measurements and details of the loco - they may have done in the past but to my knowledge it has not yet been scaled up.

 

From what I remember of the old discussion, the consensus was around retooling old gems like the D49, B17 and B12 (The N2 might also warrant a retool as the old Airfix/Dapol/Hornby tool is the only RTR one on the Market) and focused on some new models such as the D11 and D16. Likewise with the N7 which is also based on the NNR I've not heard of any measurements being taken yet but it also strikes me as a good contender.

 

The discussion is all very interesting but I guess with these things it is just a waiting game to see what comes - the fact that the O4 is on the way is very promising but for now I'd like to wait and see. The emphasis over the past few years has been on the Southern, with the tides turning to the GWR - I should thing the East will get a turn pretty soon.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I seem to remember on the original thread that there was a kind of gentleman's agreement among the consensus builders that we would all support the first three proposals with our wallets on the condition that those who got what they wanted first time round would reciprocate with the second tranche. On that understanding, I would buy a J15 hoping that when the time came for an NB or NE item, the Swedie boys would purchase it too.

I hope I'm making sense here...!

 

Dave.

[coachmann]

On that understanding, I would buy a J15 hoping that when the time came for an NB or NE item, the Swedie boys would purchase it too.

I hope I'm making sense here...!

You are Dave. But Rob Roy has b*ggered up the economy since then....

[Guest Max Stafford]

Phoo, not 'alf! With not a wee bit of help from Fred the shred too...

Of course, now I've built both a J37 and J27, I fully expect to see one of them announced this year or next.

 

Dave.

[Jamie]

On that understanding, I would buy a J15 hoping that when the time came for an NB or NE item, the Swedie boys would purchase it too.

Dave.

Interesting idea Dave, do you think enough folk will shell out (probably) ??75+ on something they don't want to affect the numbers?

 

Plus you've the risk that manufacturer unknown doesn't then analyse their figures and think - michty me, the GE stuff sells well, I know just to keep my LNE releases focussed on that neck of the woods...

 

Yours,

Cynical of Clydeside. (again)

[Guest Max Stafford]

Well, I guess I was unrealistically hopeful. Given the realities of the situation, I'm as well honing my kit-building skills. An 04, J11 or J6 will be as useful to me as an ashtray on a Lambretta...

 

Yours,

Even more cynical of the West March...

[Russ (mines a pint)]

I'd certainly dont think they coud go wrong with a 're-worked' J39 for being 'geographically well spread' - from what I understand they originated in East Anglia, worked into the midlands, borders, North East, and the Waverley route, taking them into the Midland & Scottish Regions.

 

That therefore covers most of the LNER apart from the GNSR section, plus quite a few areas as well, a useful sort of mixed traffic engine too, and as coachmann already mentioned it might not be too difficult to base a J38 on the same basic tooling?

 

Others may disagree but I dont think the present 39 looks too bad, (but thats coming from a diesel modeller!?)- its the throwback split chassis thats the most annoying (and it also blights much of the potential NE/Waverley type stuff)

[Caledonian]

Completely re-tooled B1 by Hornby :icon_wave: