Bad taste or an interesting model?

[60B]

There was some stock left in Belgium after the evacuation from Dunkirk that was put to use by the Germans. A Dean Goods loco was used for shunting in the docks and did make the odd trip further afield. There were some LMS coaches that got as far as Hamburg during the war and these survived to be used again by the British after the war ended. That's off the top of my head. I could probably provide more info if you are interested. Move to the middle east and you can have Stanier 8Fs alongside German locos. After D day the scope becomes much wider with British stock used quite a long way into Germany in the early months of 1945. The short answer is yes you can but you need to pick your area and stock with a bit of care.

Bernard

 

Wasn't there a Jinty also pressed into to serivce by the Germans? I think a recent article on the Deans Goods said that a couple made their way across Europe after WW1.

[LBSC123]

Cheers for that bernard lamb.

 

Those ideas really intrest me and would possibly be less contrivertial that my initial idea.

 

 

Many thanks,

 

Will

[Edwin_m]

I wonder if there is someway I can combine British and Continental stock and a battlefield (using History and not a what if scenario).:icon_confused:

 

I'd have thought the best starting point would be the British locos and rolling stock shipped out to various places during both world wars. Where did it go, how near the front line did it get, and did it mix much with the "native" equipment?

[PhilH]

I'm interested to know why you would worry about upsetting people you don't know, don't care about, don't respect and probably wouldn't like if you knew them anyway. As can be seen from the amount of nonsense posted on forums (that is the correct plural I believe) such as these that even the best, and least offensive of anything will draw criticism and gnashing of teeth from some idiot somewhere.

 

Me? I think it is a very interesting concept and could make a refreshing change from the plethora of similarly themed concepts currently doing the rounds. If you think you will enjoy it - do it.

[bike2steam]

After D-Day to the push into Germany, the main British theatre of operations was along the North Sea coast up to about 100 miles inland, which included the Low Countries, British rolling stock, and locos were operational mainly in Belgium, and Holland, then north west Germany. Mainly WD's, 8F's were more concentrated in the Middle East, mostly Egypt, and Syria, then moving to Turkey after the end of hostilities where they mixed with German made examples in every day work.

Thanks to Bachmann, if you want to move ideas to WW1, then the 04('Tinies') will be ideal.

It's a good idea, just for being a bit different

 

 

 

 

[LBSC123]

Cheera boys,

 

I'd say that either WW1 or 2 would be intersing to model its just a question of finding a suitible prototype I guess.

 

I don't really know were to start.

 

 

Will

[Del]

Without wishing to threadjack too much, what would people feel about a model of German railways modelled as if Germany had won WWII?

I must point out that this is not something I am intending to build, but it seems acceptable to bend history this way in the arts, with books like 'Fatherland' by Robert Harris. Would people think it acceptable to do so in the hobby world?

[Pyewipe Jct]

Without wishing to threadjack too much, what would people feel about a model of German railways modelled as if Germany had won WWII?

I must point out that this is not something I am intending to build, but it seems acceptable to bend history this way in the arts, with books like 'Fatherland' by Robert Harris. Would people think it acceptable to do so in the hobby world?

 

I think the difference is that said 'alternate history' books tend not to present a benign image, rather they give an insight into the nightmare world that might have been created - let's face it, if Hitler had been victorious, it's VERY unlikely that his regime would have suddenly turned out to be beneficial for the vast majority of people, let alone those who were targeted by it.

 

So, with a model railway, what would you portray? Either a nice British bucolic scene of life continuing as normal under 'new management', but with the addition of German rolling stock - not particularly likely, & I'd suggest rather insulting to those who fought to prevent such a thing from happening. Alternatively, you'd have to portray the reality of such a victory, cattle trucks and all, which again is not exactly the thing I'd consider acceptable.

 

I reckon if you're desperate to have continental rolling stock running alongside British, stick to the Nene Valley Railway, it's much safer

 

 

Kevin

[Del]

'Fatherland' takes place in an alternative '60s Berlin built under Hitler's vision. I meant a model built with German railways in this alternative world, I think it was something like a 9' gauge, six-track mainline with 20-coach trains and massive 4-12-4 locos.

['CHARD]

Hasn't someone already commissioned the DB 37s and 66 in RTR?

[Burkitt]

'Fatherland' takes place in an alternative '60s Berlin built under Hitler's vision. I meant a model built with German railways in this alternative world, I think it was something like a 9' gauge, six-track mainline with 20-coach trains and massive 4-12-4 locos.

 

The German plan was to build three metre (!) gauge railways if they won the war. There's a Wikipedia article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitspurbahn and dedicated websites at http://www.breitspurbahn.de/3000.html and http://www.epilog.de/Lexikon/B/Breitspureisenbahn.htm (German) and http://www.robinbarnes.net/ (English, click on "Broader than Broad"). The new station in Berlin was to be a vast dome, 265 metres in diameter, even larger than that of the proposed Volkshalle parliament building.

Robert Harris incorrectly describes the new railways as being four metre gauge in Fatherland.

 

Paul

[77philg]

Thanks you for all the feedback you have given me,

 

Frankly I got the awnser I expected, I just thought I could be an intresting model and no I'm not pre Nazi!

 

I don't think I will be opening this can of worms But thankyou for spending the time awnsering my question.

 

I wonder if there is someway I can combine British and Continental stock and a battlefield (using History and not a what if scenario).:icon_confused:

 

Cheers,

 

Will

what about after d day there were a lot of british rolling stock taken over to france presumably there would be french and possibly german locos and stock captured by late 1944 Or the battle of the bulge where there was very fluid battle lines with railways playing some part in the battle phil

[Dudley Dodger]

Apparently, some dean goods had panniers fitted to the boilers to give them longer working time.

[Bernard Lamb]

what about after d day there were a lot of british rolling stock taken over to france presumably there would be french and possibly german locos and stock captured by late 1944 O

 

 

If you take a scenario set after D day then you can run GWR and LMS and LNER and SR stock. A quick look through a report that I have recently helped to compile shows photos of various vehicles. A few examples.

WD Set 5, a 15 coach rake, was made up of SR ex SECR stock. There were 12 sets sent over between March-May 1945.

WD16447 was an Inspection Coach converted from a SR ex LSWR Pantry Third.

In October 1944 a train of former LNER stock was sent over to the continent as an Ambulance Train. This made use of some former Third Class Corridor Sleepers and was destined for US Army service. Other Ambulance Trains used former LMS Sleepers. I also have a record of a GWR open third used as a Third Class Dining Car. This was at first used by the British and later by the US. Finally 2112 was an ex LMS 12 wheeled Third Kitchen Diner. Most of this stock was sent over to Europe from Southampton in September and October 1944. There was of course a vast amount of freight stock, some of it brought from the US in kit form.

The stock that I mentioned in my previous post that reached Hamburg was WD Set 21.

 

Bernard

[Welly]

The main German problem going into Russia was getting track regauged to take their locos and stock.

How about modelling a bit of Russia that had just been invaded by the Germans and use P4 for the Russian track and OO for the German track???

No I'm NOT trying to start another gauge war!

 

Seriously, I'm VERY grateful that the Nazis never invaded the UK; even if they managed to occupy us, the Soviets would have eventually "liberated" us....

[Geoff Endacott]

Why should such a model upset people? I think it would be a fine tribute to "The Few" who took part in the Battle of Britain to show what might have happened if they had not acted as they did.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Dudley Dodger]

Why should such model upset people at all? Ok if it was a model of a death room in one of the camps, but it's just a bit of fun. Though I've always thought that model railways were built on the train (snicker) of thought 'It's my railway, I'll build it how I really would have done'. That line doesn't apply here.

[60B]

Doesn't this all rely on France fighting back and holding off the Blitzkreig?

[Dudley Dodger]

And that would have been likely to happen. Though I don't suppose that the americans would have let us down if we were conquered.

[Chrislock]

I think you are overestimating the capability of the British to defend our islands against an organised and determined Nazi invasion. We were outnumbered on nearly every level.

Churchill himself knew the game was up if the germans set foot on our soil, that's why the Battle of Britain was exactly that. Only the bravery of our air crews and subterfuge saved us there.

A full-on German invasion would have meant the Luftwaffe had annihilated the RAF, so you can rule out an air threat.

The Navy would have been faced with a solid minefield and string of uboats across the North Sea, as well as attack from large German battleships in Scarpa Flow.

Therefore I think that it is a poor scenario for a model railway, unless you fast forward to some time after the Germans had established communications and repaired important sections of track. Then they would almost certainly have utilised existing stock - perhaps with a swastika sprayed on.

As someone pointed out, the truck movements to Auschwitz and Birkenwald could then begin in earnest...

[Brinkly]

Do bear in mind that the Royal Navy's home fleet totalled some 140 war ship in 1940, most of which were stationed in the English Channel and although the army had lost nearly everything at Dunkirk there were 450 odd tanks within Britain at that point. My late Grandfather was a senior officer at this point with the rank of Major General and one of this tasks straight after the evacuation from Dunkirk was to get the army organised again, ready to face a German invasion; hence why I know there was 450 tanks as he would very often talk about what fearful odds Britain faced!

Some time ago there was a programme on one the BBC or ITV which had a large number of the remaining British and German high-command officers playing out Operation Sea lion using a mathematical formula (this was back in the 80s I think), but both sides agreed on the following;

1. That if German Air superiority had been gained over Britain the German task force would have had a window of two days to get the troops over the channel and on to Britain before the Royal Navy arrived.

2. The German invasion forces would have reached the 'Winston Line' some 15 miles or so outside of London before being stopped due to the arrival of the Royal Navy which would have created a turkey shoot in the German invasion vessels. The German army would only have been able to get some 90,000 men across the channel within the time of two days, realistically no more than 100,000 if they were lucky. Britain at that point had 365,000 Regular soldiers and some 1.5 million Local Defence Volunteers, although they lacked heavy armour of their own, there were still large numbers of anti-tank field guns and field artillery pieces which were being used for anti-aircraft defence, which would have been called into service.

3. After 5 days of fighting the German army would have been on the brink of collapse due to a lack of supplies and reinforcements due to the Royal Navy cutting the troops off in the south of England. And at that point the German air force itself would have been near exhausted, due to the huge looses in gaining air superiority over Britain. Also the German Air force lacked large numbers of transport aircraft which would hamper the forces on the ground.

4. After 7 days the German army would either have to try and contemplate its own Dunkirk, or surrender due to a lack of ammunition and supplies.

 

So if you did want to do something based on Britain between the wars why not El Alamein, as they had goodness only knows what running in North Africa at that point! British, Italian and some German locomotives, not to mention Egyptian items!

 

Good luck with your project!

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick

 

 

[Russ (mines a pint)]

as as been hinted at already a wartime layout based in the 'thick of the action' ie somewhere between Germany & France , would be a hugely interesting and far less controversial subject, than the OP scenario.

 

I dont know though how much involvement the railways had? -the understanding being that the respective sides put the other's infrastucture out of function (including railways) as a strategic aim?

[Chrislock]

Do bear in mind that the Royal Navy's home fleet totalled some 140 war ship in 1940, most of which were stationed in the English Channel and although the army had lost nearly everything at Dunkirk there were 450 odd tanks within Britain at that point. My late Grandfather was a senior officer at this point with the rank of Major General and one of this tasks straight after the evacuation from Dunkirk was to get the army organised again, ready to face a German invasion; hence why I know there was 450 tanks as he would very often talk about what fearful odds Britain faced!

Some time ago there was a programme on one the BBC or ITV which had a large number of the remaining British and German high-command officers playing out Operation Sea lion using a mathematical formula (this was back in the 80s I think), but both sides agreed on the following;

1. That if German Air superiority had been gained over Britain the German task force would have had a window of two days to get the troops over the channel and on to Britain before the Royal Navy arrived.

2. The German invasion forces would have reached the 'Winston Line' some 15 miles or so outside of London before being stopped due to the arrival of the Royal Navy which would have created a turkey shoot in the German invasion vessels. The German army would only have been able to get some 90,000 men across the channel within the time of two days, realistically no more than 100,000 if they were lucky. Britain at that point had 365,000 Regular soldiers and some 1.5 million Local Defence Volunteers, although they lacked heavy armour of their own, there were still large numbers of anti-tank field guns and field artillery pieces which were being used for anti-aircraft defence, which would have been called into service.

3. After 5 days of fighting the German army would have been on the brink of collapse due to a lack of supplies and reinforcements due to the Royal Navy cutting the troops off in the south of England. And at that point the German air force itself would have been near exhausted, due to the huge looses in gaining air superiority over Britain. Also the German Air force lacked large numbers of transport aircraft which would hamper the forces on the ground.

4. After 7 days the German army would either have to try and contemplate its own Dunkirk, or surrender due to a lack of ammunition and supplies.

 

 

Nick

 

Don't you think the Luftwaffe and U Boats would have had their own turkey shoot with the RN? The German Baltic fleet was also sizeable.

I think we can assume that without an air victory of such proportions we would have become a part of the Third Reich - Churchill's own papers paint a very bleak view of our chances IF the Germany army established bridgehead. Well supported stormtroopers v reservists with a sprinking of regulars? Hmmm.

Fortunately Goerring took the dummy and we managed to give them a black eye in the air. The RAF saved us, that's the truth.

 

Don't forget that if Hitler could have invaded England, Russia would most likely not have been on his agenda until at least the following year, as we took his full attention. No distractions there.

 

It is also doubtful if the USA would have been unable to intervene effectively.

What all this has to do with model railways is beyond me.

 

Cheers

Chris

[jamie92208]

The only way I can think of to combine British and continental tock would be to model aFrance or re-occupied Europe in seither 1917/18 or 1944/45. At both time much British gauge rolling stock was sent overseas, locos and stock both wagons and coaches, the latter oftern in ambulance trains. One Midland Kirtley 0-6-0 was even captured and used by the germans and then recatutrred and eventually repatriated. In WW2 there were of course the S160's and other stock that came from the Us built to our loading gauge then were shipped over the France I think via Cherebourg. There were also stanier 2-8-0's in Egypt and Iran. In Iran they mixed with US built Baldwin Diesels as well as wagons built by the Southern railway. there is quite a lot of published literature about this but in WW1 there was a train ferry service from Richborough in kent to Dunkirk carrying all sorts of war materiel.

 

 

Jamie

[invercloy]

I wonder if there is someway I can combine British and Continental stock and a battlefield (using History and not a what if scenario).:icon_confused:

 

There is!

 

Channel Islands, but it would likely be narrow gauge like the Jersey Railway. That way you could have British outline stock with German stuff brought over and battle-scarred buildings.