6 Wheel Coaches

[ChrisN]

Brassmasters do a 6 wheel chassis kits, 2 types, depending on your prototype depends which type you need. I'm not able to post a link at the moment, but will do later.

 

 

I have used several of the kits from Brassmasters for 6 wheelers and found them to be very nice indeed. They give you a choice of inside or pin point bearings and a very adaptable wheelbase. I have run my carriages round 2' 10" radius curves in EM with no problems at all and they just glide along.

 

The only difficult part is that the pivoting trucks take up a lot of the floor area, so if you want to fit vacuum brake cylinders or gas tanks, you have to use your initiative. I fixed mine to the Brassmasters parts and that worked fine.

 

No connection other than as a highly satisfied customer!

 

Tony G

 

Hi,

Thank you both.  Sorry to multiple reply but I am on the end of a dodgy internet connection tonight.  I have 3 Brassmasters Cleminson 6 wheel chassis kits.  I am modelling the Cambrian and having bought these I understand that they do not give the right spacing for their 6 wheelers.  I will also need some for LNWR, GWR and maybe MS&LR coaches so they may get used then.

Edited February 8, 2016 by ChrisN

[t-b-g]

Don't forget that Comet do a 6 wheel axleguard kit. I'm making one up for one of my 6 wheelers at the minute. Its very good. Three axleguards are provided on the fret (for just over 3 quid). They make up into three rocking units (you make one fixed by packing out the rock!), and then the far axle can rock. The middle axle can rock and it comes with an etch that you solder to the middle of the w-iron, that converts that axle to an inside bearing one (after you have removed the ends of the axles outside the wheels).

There is even a fret of brake shoes that you can add to the w-irons.

 

I've not got it running yet, but so far I would give it a 10 out of 10 for cost and design. Looks like it is the way forward!

 

Andy G

 

That is similar to the arrangement that Danny Pinnock used in his 4mm scale GNR and other 6 wheeled carriage kits (and probably still does in the 7mm ones). The D & S carriages had one fixed and one pivotted end and the centre W irons floated between guides and were held in place and alignment by a wire along the length of the carriage. I have built a number of these as well as using the Comet etchings and they do work quite well but not quite as well as the Brassmasters ones, which allow the outer wheels to turn to follow the rail and can have (if you choose to build them that way) pinpoint bearings on all three axles. I did find a few problems with my middle axle on the Comet ones. As the outer wheels have no sideways movement, you need more on the centre axle and it wasn't easy to get enough sideplay to allow it to go round my sometimes small radius curves.

 

With the Brassmaster arrangement, the outer wheels move inwards on a curved and the centre wheels move outwards but they don't need to move as far as they would if the outer wheels were fixed so clearances between the solebars are not such a problem.

 

The big plus point of the Comet arrangement is the cost. If you are building several carriages, it can add up to quite a saving compared with Brassmaster's prices.

Edited January 4, 2016 by t-b-g

[ChrisN]

Don't forget that Comet do a 6 wheel axleguard kit. I'm making one up for one of my 6 wheelers at the minute. Its very good. Three axleguards are provided on the fret (for just over 3 quid). They make up into three rocking units (you make one fixed by packing out the rock!), and then the far axle can rock. The middle axle can rock and it comes with an etch that you solder to the middle of the w-iron, that converts that axle to an inside bearing one (after you have removed the ends of the axles outside the wheels).

There is even a fret of brake shoes that you can add to the w-irons.

 

I've not got it running yet, but so far I would give it a 10 out of 10 for cost and design. Looks like it is the way forward!

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

Thank you.  I will have to look for it.

[asmay2002]

Hi,

Thank you both.  Sorry to multiple reply but I am on the end of a dodgy internet connection tonight.  I have 3 Brassmasters Cleminson 6 wheel chassis kits.  I am modelling the Cambrian and having bought these I understand that they do not give the right spacing for their 6 wheelers.  I will also need some for LNWR, GWR and maybe MS&LR coaches do they may get used then.

 

In the Brassmaster's chassis the wheel spacing is adjustable when you build it. 

[sharris]

In the Brassmaster's chassis the wheel spacing is adjustable when you build it. 

 

There's a set of instructions (Word file) and picture of the fret here: http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/cleminson_underframe.htm

 

It looks quite cunning really.

Edited January 5, 2016 by sharris

[ChrisN]

That is similar to the arrangement that Danny Pinnock used in his 4mm scale GNR and other 6 wheeled carriage kits (and probably still does in the 7mm ones). The D & S carriages had one fixed and one pivotted end and the centre W irons floated between guides and were held in place and alignment by a wire along the length of the carriage. I have built a number of these as well as using the Comet etchings and they do work quite well but not quite as well as the Brassmasters ones, which allow the outer wheels to turn to follow the rail and can have (if you choose to build them that way) pinpoint bearings on all three axles. I did find a few problems with my middle axle on the Comet ones. As the outer wheels have no sideways movement, you need more on the centre axle and it wasn't easy to get enough sideplay to allow it to go round my sometimes small radius curves.

 

With the Brassmaster arrangement, the outer wheels move inwards on a curved and the centre wheels move outwards but they don't need to move as far as they would if the outer wheels were fixed so clearances between the solebars are not such a problem.

 

The big plus point of the Comet arrangement is the cost. If you are building several carriages, it can add up to quite a saving compared with Brassmaster's prices.

 

I tried the MJT wagon three axel on a coach I have even though Quarryscapes of this parish tried the same thing and it did not work.  It did not work for me either as there is not enough side play, mainly because the axels are restricted by the W irons that hold them.  They are producing another set where the centre axel is supported inside the wheels.  Now I have some springs I am going to try again.

[ChrisN]

In the Brassmaster's chassis the wheel spacing is adjustable when you build it. 

 

 

There's a set of instructions (Word file) and picture of the fret here: http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/cleminson_underframe.htm

 

It looks quite cunning really.

 

Thank you both.

 

I have had one out of the packet and it looks very good, and fairly straightforward.  Unfortunately the wheelbase increment is in 6" and the Cambrian 6 wheelers have spacings of x ft 9".  Now I know it is only a millimetre either side but I will try another way first.  If I build a couple for other companies coaches, then I might have a go at modifying it.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi,

Thank you both.  Sorry to multiple reply but I am on the end of a dodgy internet connection tonight.  I have 3 Brassmasters Cleminson 6 wheel chassis kits.  I am modelling the Cambrian and having bought these I understand that they do not give the right spacing for their 6 wheelers.  I will also need some for LNWR, GWR and maybe MS&LR coaches do they may get used then.

The LRM LNWR 6 wheel under frames are designed to reproduce the unique LNWR design. These have a specific design of hornguide. However the Cleminson units use outside bearings for free running.

[ChrisN]

The LRM LNWR 6 wheel under frames are designed to reproduce the unique LNWR design. These have a specific design of hornguide. However the Cleminson units use outside bearings for free running.

 

Thank you.  I will look at these and when the time comes may well use them.  It may be a while as there is so much to do.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Thank you.  I will look at these and when the time comes may well use them.  It may be a while as there is so much to do.

Chris,

 

take a look at the LRM underframe on their website (they are in the six wheel carriages section). It is complete with floor, solebars, footboards, etc. to suit their etched six wheel body kits. It may not therefore suit some of the older kits such as K's whitemetal variety but should be okay with the early etched ones from M&L, etc.

 

http://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/carriages/lnwr-carriages/

 

Jol

[Quarryscapes]

I tried the MJT wagon three axel on a coach I have even though Quarryscapes of this parish tried the same thing and it did not work.  It did not work for me either as there is not enough side play, mainly because the axels are restricted by the W irons that hold them.  They are producing another set where the centre axel is supported inside the wheels.  Now I have some springs I am going to try again.

 

Late to the party as always - I think a lot of the problem with mine was that the outer W irons were pivoted at their centre points, which is incorrect. There is a formula somewhere for calculating the pivot points, but I cannot for the life of me find it. (it's intended for finding the pivot point of a pony truck, but it's use is applicable here). If you look at a Cleminson underframe the outer trucks are pivoted at a point towards the centre of the vehicle. 

 

I know mike Morley has built a very smart Peter K 6 wheeler on the brassmasters chassis without modification to the wheelbases. For mine however I intend to build a better underframe than the Peter K one, I just need to figure out how! 

[ChrisN]

Late to the party as always - I think a lot of the problem with mine was that the outer W irons were pivoted at their centre points, which is incorrect. There is a formula somewhere for calculating the pivot points, but I cannot for the life of me find it. (it's intended for finding the pivot point of a pony truck, but it's use is applicable here). If you look at a Cleminson underframe the outer trucks are pivoted at a point towards the centre of the vehicle. 

 

I know mike Morley has built a very smart Peter K 6 wheeler on the brassmasters chassis without modification to the wheelbases. For mine however I intend to build a better underframe than the Peter K one, I just need to figure out how! 

 

I think part of the problem with the MJT chassis was that on the kit that I bought the parts of the gear that hold the axlebox prevents the centre wheel moving out far enough.  However I have now bought some axleboxes and intend to drill some holes through and see if I can gain enough sideway movement.  I have not thought how I attach the wheels directly to the chassis yet.

 

Have you thought which 6 wheelers you intend to build?

 

The Kemilway/Peter K website still appears to be being updated but I hesitate to order anything from there, although I have one of each of his kits and am trying to have as few duplicates as possible.

[Quarryscapes]

I'll build whatever I can get a kit or drawings for, me! 

 

What sort of minimum radius do you need Chris? I'll see if I can make my improved design accommodate it

[ChrisN]

I'll build whatever I can get a kit or drawings for, me! 

 

What sort of minimum radius do you need Chris? I'll see if I can make my improved design accommodate it

 

Small, I am afraid. about 18" at minimum although I have tried to ease it greater than that.  It is the problem of trying to have a dual purpose layout.

[Quarryscapes]

Small, I am afraid. about 18" at minimum although I have tried to ease it greater than that.  It is the problem of trying to have a dual purpose layout.

 

On the Cleminson principle that would require the centre wheels to have 1.7mm each side of sideplay, a clear space of 24.3mm would be needed between solebars for the outer wheels to swing. (Calculated at 450mm centreline radius). That's probably quite managable I'd have thought. 

[Andy Hayter]

You can of course cheat.

 

For years I exhibited my French layout les Dents with 6 wheelers running without the centre axle.  No one noticed - or they were too polite to comment. 

[Quarryscapes]

You can of course cheat.

 

For years I exhibited my French layout les Dents with 6 wheelers running without the centre axle.  No one noticed - or they were too polite to comment. 

 

or could take the triang approach and go flangeless! 

[orford]

The Stove-R models from Hornby Magazine, which are still readily available, have 6-wheeled chassis which work exceptionally well - although with my generous curves I did find it advantageous to 'lock-up' the outer axles to a solid configuration. but I would certainly recommend those as a chassis source.

 

- Don

[ChrisN]

On the Cleminson principle that would require the centre wheels to have 1.7mm each side of sideplay, a clear space of 24.3mm would be needed between solebars for the outer wheels to swing. (Calculated at 450mm centreline radius). That's probably quite managable I'd have thought. 

 

In theory that is correct and the MJT chart says it is possible, I just need to work on it.  It is nudging its way to the top of the pile.

 

 

or could take the triang approach and go flangeless! 

 

It will be my last resort

[ChrisN]

The Stove-R models from Hornby Magazine, which are still readily available, have 6-wheeled chassis which work exceptionally well - although with my generous curves I did find it advantageous to 'lock-up' the outer axles to a solid configuration. but I would certainly recommend those as a chassis source.

 

- Don

 

Don,

Another possibility.  They do occur regularly on EBay.  They would need footboards which is not impossible.  Perhaps I should get one and see how they work.

[Quarryscapes]

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2299T.php

 

Is this what you have Chris? I don't think it'll allow you the flexibility needed as the outer ends are fixed rather than pivoting, so you'd need some sideplay on the outer wheels too, otherwise the outer wheels will just jam up against the rails.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Quarryscapes

[Quarryscapes]

Here's my proposed solution. Cleminson truck underframe specific to this coach with 3 ply sandwich floor allowing for removable underframe, sprung centre truck for improved running. 3D printed solebars complete the improved look. (Note these are not the final versions). 

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

One option is to move the outer truck pivots towards the centre of the underframe.That way you get sideways displacement of all axles (one way for the outer, the opposite way for the centre) which follows the curve more easily.

 

The attached shows the principle.

 

 

The BM and LRM Cleminson underframes also include compensation which makes the "linkage" more complicated.

 

 

[Quarryscapes]

Internet failed last night before I could add this, this is my etch folded up to shape. 

 

 

and with the cosmetic sideframes:

 

 

[Ben Alder]

Any further work done on these? I am pottering around with Ratios turning them into six wheelers and have found this topic very informative.