magic_monkey09 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 ive seen pictures of 60098 with various components removed and 60070 without a cab side window and all of its engine room dooors removed and roof panels open? are these two being used for spares or something? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I watched 66156+66020 take out a 2,424 tonne train of limestone from Tunstead to Northwich on Sunday afternoon whilst at Peak Forest. It seems a waste of 2 locos with 6,600 hp to haul the same train with a single 3,100 hp class 60! When the then new JEA hoppers were introduced to this flow back in 2001, the class 66s were limited to haul upto 17 loaded wagons. There were trials with single and double headed 66s but they stuck to 60s knowing that they would comfortably manage the full 25 loaded wagons. Earlier this year I watched 66021 bring 22 hoppers into Peak Forest and halt to let the shunter man off and then restart the train, which it did manage. Just! And it was a dry day too! I honestly can't see DBS sticking to pairs of 66s on the heaviest services and I hope that the 60 refurb program does actually go ahead. Yes there will be some casualties but perhaps these could be stripped and placed in secure storage until the time is right maybe in a few years time? Cheers Paul PS I have video of both of these runs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 This sounds more and more as if DBS is deliberately sabotaging its own chances to more freight by rail. The cynic in me wonders of this is the proof that the owner of DBS ( the German government ) is deliberately sabotaging UK economics, for the German economics the benefit ? Regards, Michel OMG "don't mention the war and we might get away with it" !!!!! Sorry Michel you are well cynical my friend. You must look at the wider picture where EWS is concerned. One very simple illustration is the way EWS wound up it's operation of class 47. It was plainly obvious that EWS were going to dispense with the class after Ed Burkhardt slagged them off in one of his publicity releases. So what happened ? They were simply switched off wherever they landed on the respective Sunday nights, then festered for months and months at sheds up and down the country. Then, out of UAT and fitness to run some of them had to be carted off by road to scrapyards etc. IIRC one died an ignominious death at Saltley - was it 47791 ? Was it shipped out by low loader ? Me - if I were running down a fleet, they'd all end up at a central disposal point before their license to run was revoked. Carting decommisioned locos around on the back of an artic is an expensive way of running your business for your shareholders, but I don't think there is any Hanseatic undertone involved myself. Do you ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 .... EWS has been a part of two takeovers since privatisation. The first was the Canadian National buyout; CN were running traffic into The USA via Wisconsin Central and it was this part of the group that CN wanted ownership of, the other parts like New Zealand and EWS were of no real use to CN. Likewise the issue with DB was, if my interpretation of the events leading up to their purchase of EWS is correct, was running powers in France, which they couldn't secure so bought a company who had rights of access and a large quantity of locomotives approved for wider European use. So yes it does make you think, especially when EWS was just part of a job lot but not the main objective for whoever was buying. Maybe EWS employees have a better insight here, but your interpretation tally's with my own (simply gleened from the railway media, internet and rail forums). After Canadian National took over in 2001, did EWS lose its way? As you say EWS just happened to come with the package and were not the reason they bought Wisconsin Central. (IIRC CN only owned 31% of EWS, the majority was owned by two investment groups) Certainly staff complaints and moans about management actions, inactions and decision making indicated a lack of clear direction. The six years under CN also saw the rise of a greatly expanded Freightliner and other serious competitors such as GBRf and DRS. I would have thought that poor leadership and lack of direction don't exactly help if you're trying to fend off the opposition? ....and yes, DB bought EWS for their Euro Cargo Rail subsiduary and that companies European running rights. Apart from direct access to French markets, DB has access right into Spain via it's majority ownership of Transfesa. So EWS was effectively bought so that DB could aquire a major chunk of the rail freight capacity linking SW Europe, through France into Germany, Central and Northern Europe. Only time will tell if they are really interested in their UK freight operations. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shedmaster Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 "....and yes, DB bought EWS for their Euro Cargo Rail subsiduary and that companies European running rights. Apart from direct access to French markets, DB has access right into Spain via it's majority ownership of Transfesa. So EWS was effectively bought so that DB could aquire a major chunk of the rail freight capacity linking SW Europe, through France into Germany, Central and Northern Europe. Only time will tell if they are really interested in their UK freight operations." Interesting indeed then that the 'Ford' train should switch to another operator when, is it not DBS that actually OWN the third party company.....Transfesa ? I know I may be getting my trains/companies muddled a bit here but my point is essentially accurate.... I also think that EWS had BIG financial problems when they 'bought' the 66's all those years back........why did they suddenly change the publicity machine to refer to a 'hire agreement' shortly after telling us all they had 'bought' new Loco's ? It never recovered from then on............. Like I said previously......double railfreight in five years and have nothing left in ten !!! Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 16, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2009 60039 back on the LBT - Fiddlers circuit this morning. Ta to a few for the info ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Interesting indeed then that the 'Ford' train should switch to another operator when, is it not DBS that actually OWN the third party company.....Transfesa ? I know I may be getting my trains/companies muddled a bit here but my point is essentially accurate.... No you're not muddled Dave. it is Transfesa. DBS bought the majority shareholding around the same time as they aquired EWS and ECR. The freight flows from Spain and Portugal to Germany and other Northern countries is said to have been a key reason for them expanding into France through the purchase of EWS. That and gaining open access rights in France and Belgium has probably made DBS the No.1 freight and logistics company in Europe. Apart from the Ford train, the scope for daily, or almost daily flows to the UK must be quite significant considering the number of lorry loads coming into the UK from the Iberian Peninsula. DBS must be ideally placed to bid for this traffic, but so far Zilch! I think we can each judge for ourselves if DBS have any serious interest in their UK branch. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 DBS started a new service with Stobart a month or two back doing just that, so not exactly zilch... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 New DBS freight flows this year (new flows, not changes in FOC) - courtesy of the rolling list on the Freightmaster forum. - Sand from Angerstein to Lea Interchange (DBS) - Slag from Port Talbot to Lea Interchange (DBS) - coal from G-c-G to Onllwyn (DBS) - china clay from Aberdeen to Workington (DBS) - stone from Peak Forest to West Burton (DBS) - steel from Port Talbot to Dollands Moor (DBS) - MoD traffic to Donnington (DBS) - limestone from Hardendale to Port Talbot (DBS) - daily intermodal service from Thamesport to Birch Coppice (DBS) - daily intermodal service from Hams Hall to Mossend (DBS) Add - winning the Stobart/Tesco contract from DRS Add - winning a "one operator" contract for LaFarge which will see all their traffic move to DBS Add - winning the Humber oil traffic back Nope. DBS certainly can't be bothered to do anything in the UK anymore... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Thanks for that Martyn. Yes they have won or regained quite a few contracts in the UK this last year, which does seem to reverse their fortunes over the last few years. It' may be a sign that the new management is turning things round. However it doesn't alter the fact that they bought EWS primarily for ECS. So far UK operations don't appear to be part of the larger European scheme and as I said, only time will tell if they serious, in the sense of integrating UK operations into their wider strategic plan; or is DBS UK just regarded as a branch line operation? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 There's a few international bulk flows via the tunnel now, china clay from Holland to Irvine (weekly), export steel from Scunthorpe to Ebange (Belgium?) which runs daily last time I looked - both of those I believe are DB Schenker trains throughout as is the Stobart reefer train from Spain I mentioned - that one is weekly at present but there's a lot of opportunity for developing it. Not sure what happens to the export steel coil from Margam the other side (Brian?) - not sure whether that's a similar international block train or whether it feeds into the SNCF wagonload network. With Stobart I believe being one of (if not the?) Europe's biggest hauliers there has to be more opportunity with that tie in. I'm told there's another domestic flow for Stobart on behalf of Coca Cola being trialled just today... So again, things are happenning. These aren't the kind of things that can happen overnight though, if they are existing flows in place with other operators or via other routes then there will be existing contracts in place and DBS will have to wait for those to be renegotiated before they get a chance at hitting them... Wagonload traffic is still the preserve of the national operator in each country (or their descendants) so until something can be done about opening that up to competition it won't get a lot better, although potentially in terms of the UK if you ended up with a big enough regular block between (for instance) Germany where DBS was the resident operator and the UK where they are also now the wagonload operator you could run a block train directly and short-circuit SNCF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shedmaster Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 New DBS freight flows this year (new flows, not changes in FOC) - courtesy of the rolling list on the Freightmaster forum. - Sand from Angerstein to Lea Interchange (DBS) - Slag from Port Talbot to Lea Interchange (DBS) - coal from G-c-G to Onllwyn (DBS) - china clay from Aberdeen to Workington (DBS) - stone from Peak Forest to West Burton (DBS) - steel from Port Talbot to Dollands Moor (DBS) - MoD traffic to Donnington (DBS) - limestone from Hardendale to Port Talbot (DBS) - daily intermodal service from Thamesport to Birch Coppice (DBS) - daily intermodal service from Hams Hall to Mossend (DBS) Add - winning the Stobart/Tesco contract from DRS Add - winning a "one operator" contract for LaFarge which will see all their traffic move to DBS Add - winning the Humber oil traffic back Nope. DBS certainly can't be bothered to do anything in the UK anymore... When you put it like that.......you have to agree there HAS been some positive 'wins' lately, even I've been impressed ! Thanks for reminding us that it ain't ALL bad !!! Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 . With Stobart I believe being one of (if not the?) Europe's biggest hauliers there has to be more opportunity with that tie in. I'm told there's another domestic flow for Stobart on behalf of Coca Cola being trialled just today... Just to put the record straight, Stobart has about 1000 lorries whereas both Wincanton Logistics, and Tibbett and Britten have around 4000 each. Even so, more freight by rail has to be welcomed. Geoff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Norbert-Dentressangle have over 7000 lorries (tractor units) and more than 8300 trailer units. Willy Betz 4500 tractor units. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
big T Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 ive seen pictures of 60098 with various components removed and 60070 without a cab side window and all of its engine room dooors removed and roof panels open? are these two being used for spares or something? 98 was IIRC one of the first to be a Christmas tree. The question is not what has gone from it, but what is actually left! Component recovery and cannibalisation is /was common place. I have heard stories of impromptu component recovery from one working loco coming on shed to one about to leave. TOPS reports 4 out of 100 available today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Ta for the corrections ref the hauliers. Their website reckons 1850 tractors and about 3000 trailers BTW, but that doesn't change the fact there's bigger fish out there... Another way of looking at it, to put the scale of potential out there I reckon there's in the region of about 300 Stobart group curtain side or reefer boxes out there(*)...so you could regard intermodal as equalling a little under 10% of the trailer fleet so far - plenty of room to grow that business! Having a traditional road haulier (yes I know, logistics provider) of such high profile taking rail seriously can't be bad for business either. (* TESU curtain side swaps seem to number a little over 200, the highest i've shot is #206...I reckon they probably need around 75 reefers for the Spanish train making assumptions that they are swapped at the UK end and not at the Spanish end where they have a couple of days at the moment) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_R Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Just driven past Toton and it looks like a 'TugsRus' there are that many parked up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Today, 60045, one of the active 4 (plus the two WNTR that are about) worked Lindsey - Westerleigh, plus the 6E41 return, seen passing Hall End between Yate and Wickwar, which sounded in fine form, a nice loud approach as was expected cheers jo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 18, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2009 59204 rumoured to be heading our way for the LBT circuit ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Uh-oh! Wasn't the 59 trial out of LBT a bit of a let down compared to how the Tugs handle it? Oh well, spose it'll get 204 away from the Mendips - it seem to appear every time I go fotting round there cheers jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbringer Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Norbert-Dentressangle have over 7000 lorries (tractor units) and more than 8300 trailer units. Don't forget that Norbert Dressingtable also own Christian Salvesen, that could put his total number of vehicles up a bit. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 18, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2009 Uh-oh! Wasn't the 59 trial out of LBT a bit of a let down compared to how the Tugs handle it? Oh well, spose it'll get 204 away from the Mendips - it seem to appear every time I go fotting round there cheers jo Mmm - I thought that but driving training starts next week.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40044 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 59204 now at Warrington allocated DRVR TRNG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 19, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2009 Mmm - I thought that but driving training starts next week.... If they had a problem with a 59 managing a load it was probably down to driving technique - don't forget they are regularly shifting trains of up to 5,000 tonnes trailing load in our neck of the woods and have been since new, with no problems. We did a trial with a 5,000 tonne trailing load out of Whatley for ARC but 'just in case' we had a second 59 inside the train engine - never needed to bring it life even with the front of the train on the 1 in 138 up to Clink Road and the back still on the curve from Frome West to Frome North on a rising gradient. Only thing that happened was the Super Creep coming in for a few hundred yards - which is a bit like riding on angle grinder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gary H Posted December 19, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2009 If they had a problem with a 59 managing a load it was probably down to driving technique Thats what I had in mind, strange! Nothing will beat a 59 below about 15 mph. (info from a driver I met on a ballast one night that regularly worked out of Whatley and Merehead up until the mid ninties) The Super Series by letting each driven wheel slip a controlled amount gives phenomenal tractive effort. Anyway, from good authority, dont right off the tugs just yet, lets see what 2010 brings! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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