Theory of General Minories

[The Johnster]

That was certainly CJF's idea.

 

Can  anyone say:

 

1) how long it would take to uncouple the loco of the incoming train, couple a new loco to the "country" end, connect pipes and test brakes etc. and be ready for the train to depart? 5 min. 10, 15, 20...?

 

and 

 

2) how long it would take to clean the fire, and top up coal and water ready for the next duty?

 

Of course I am asking for minimum times at a busy station, not for Ashburton!

 

I ask because I am modelling the timetable for such a station (Bradford North Western).

 

Ian

 

 

The 1960 WTT for Cardiff Clarence Road suggests 5 minutes for a train to arrive in the station's single platform, loco uncouples, new loco couples on other end, guard changes the tail lamp to the new rear end of train, a brake test is performed, and right away.  This requires smart working and may well in practice have involved somebody else doing the tail lamp part of the job, or a new lamp provided to save time.  This is an example of the extreme intensity of rush hour work at this small station which could only hold 5 coaches, very Minoriesesque!  The train having departed, the incoming loco runs to the other end of the platform and then out onto the 'up' line to await the arrival of the next train, or, if it is at the end of the rush hour sequence, departs light engine and things settle down to a quieter daytime routine in which autos ebb and flow and loco hauled trains run around in the conventional manner.

 

Similar performances seem to have been achieved at Bute Road, and could rival the turnaround times for auto or dmu workings.  The thing to remember is the necessity to perform a brake continuity test each time the vacuum in the pipe is destroyed by uncoupling the pipes on a passenger carrying train.  Thus, if you are running around, it is incorrect (and drives Johnster potty at shows) to run the loco around the train and set it back on to the stock, then continuing to push the stock back into position in the platform.  NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. NEVER. NO.  This stock has it's brakes hard on having had the vacuum destroyed when the loco uncoupled, and presents a solid obstacle to the loco.  Stop for a minute while the fireman or shunter couples up, connects the vacuum pipes (bags) and the guard performs the continuity test. then you can set back into the platform for you passengers to board!

 

If you want to go loose shunting around the place within station limits and yards with ECS or NPCCS, fine, but first allow time for the guard or shunter to isolate and disable the vacuum (or air) brakes on each individual vehicle; he pulls the cord at the position marked on the solebar with a white star and the cylinder takes 4 or 5 seconds each time to come to equalised air pressure; the stock must now be scotched or held by handbrake if stabled, and never moved in this condition with passengers aboard.  Same applies to fitted freight stock, and isolating the brakes on a 60 wagon fully fitted train takes quite some time!

 

Cleaning the fire and topping up with coal and water at a loco servicing point is another deal altogether.  There were no servicing facilities at Clarence Road at all, locos just stood out of the way on the up running road, and only one road, with water and an ash pit, at Bute Road.  Incoming locos would not have come all that far on suburban workings, and would most likely simply need the tanks brimming, the fire should be in pretty good order as the fireman has maintained with the next job in mind.  Coaling facilities are very much a luxury, and indeed there was no water available at all at Clarence, locos took water at Cardiff General.  Blowing off at the safety valves was discouraged as it wasted steam and was annoyingly noisy, which would lead to complaints from the neighbours, so the usual technique would be to let the fire die back a little on the approach to the station and feed the boiler with fresh water when you were at the buffers to keep her quiet.  Once released, our fireman has time to build his fire for the next working, but should not overdo things so as to avoid blowing off; she has to be kept at enough pressure for light engine movements, at the same time!  Of course, not everyone could do this every time!

Edited September 26, 2017 by The Johnster

[Siberian Snooper]

The Loco should stop approx 6ft short of the train and be called forward, so as to avoid bumping the train and causing boarding or standing passengers to fall.

[The Johnster]

Yes, if they have boarded or the movement is part of a shunt to a train in service, or if goods, parcels, or mails are being loaded or unloaded at the time.

Edited September 26, 2017 by The Johnster

[kevinlms]

If you search through early trackplans, this arrangement was more common, but usually where the engine shed was somewhere else - the turntable at the end is convenient where there is a need to turn an engine, maybe top up the water and clean out some clinker, but otherwise not require the full services of an MPD, but it is a PITA otherwise. I suspect they were quickly dispensed with, but the SER and the LCDR were both short of money, plus even the longest journey from London to Kent isn't very long, and can be served as an out and back turn for the engine and crew.

Also NBR, e.g. Rothbury.

I suspect they were quickly dispensed with not soon after. Almost certainly they quickly became too small for larger & heavier trains. Considering most of the ones at terminal stations, only fed a couple of platforms, thus making them hideously expensive to enlargen* and still only cover 2 tracks. So an expensive bit of kit. No wonder they became redundant.

 

* It wasn't unknown for small turntables to be extended, by just replacing the deck rails, with longer ones & have them overhanging. However it seems to be restricted to light traffic locations.

[Pacific231G]

The essence of a minories is that beyond the station throat there is no point work and that either a pilot or another train loco deals with anything loco hauled.

 

Any turntable or traverser and it is still a model of a terminus but not a minories.

 

Hmmm, that would mean that the EM gauge "Minories GN" built as a 50th anniversary tribute by Tom Cunnington and others is no longer a  Minories as it has a hidden traverser beyond the original end between platforms 1&2. (Correction- no it doesn'.t I'd thought that was what I'd seen but the tracks hidden under the high level building are just short loco length extensions of paltforms one ans two) 

 

Minories started as "a blinding inspiration doodled on the back of a page proof", it wasn't carved on tablets of stone and personally I'm happier to let Cyril Freezer himself define its essence.

"...the essence is a pair of crossovers set at an angle to each other, simple effective and having the bonus that a train entering or leaving any of the three platform roads had only one wiggle to make" ("Spitalfields" Practical Model Railways, May 1988) All of his subsequent versions of Minories retained that essence but a great deal else changed and, while there may have been no pointwork beyond the station throat in the original passenger only Minories, all his other versions of it had points or even  a sector plate on the left hand board.

The Spitalfields article is interesting as it also confirms that Minories was originally designed as a minimum-sized TT gauge layout to fit on a folding 5ft x 9ins baseboard. 

Equally important was the intention.  "I had one thing in mind when preparing the plan; to try to break the obsession with country branch terminii and to put forward the much more exciting concept of a busy city terminus"

.  

Edited June 18, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

That was certainly CJF's idea.

 

Can  anyone say:

 

1) how long it would take to uncouple the loco of the incoming train, couple a new loco to the "country" end, connect pipes and test brakes etc. and be ready for the train to depart? 5 min. 10, 15, 20...?

 

and 

 

2) how long it would take to clean the fire, and top up coal and water ready for the next duty?

 

Of course I am asking for minimum times at a busy station, not for Ashburton!

 

I ask because I am modelling the timetable for such a station (Bradford North Western).

 

Ian

Based on the platform occupancy chart for Paris Bastille in 1925, after the traffic department had rationalised the operation for maximum evening rush (18.00-20.00) , the standard time a train was on the platform from arrival to departure was ten minutes. A loco arriving with a train would be taking out another one after about 24-26 minutes. That would have included watering but I don't think much coaling as locos generally took out a train from the next platform to the one they'd brought in so it probably wouldn't have involved a trip to the small loco depot.By 1925 the line was being worked by 50 identical Prairie tanks and the part of it to Limeil heavily used by commuters was a relatively short 25kms

 

.

 

This chart, at the foot of the timetable graph for the line, usefully indicates which earlier arrival (service train or empty stock working) the loco taking a train out had been at the head of so you can see how long they spent at the terminus. 

Even train numbers are arrivals and odd numbers are departures and when the previous loco working is shown as HP, that indicates that it arrived as a light engine but possibly only from the adjoining shed which did have a large coaling stage.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Compound2632]

 when the previous loco working is shown as HP, that indicates that it arrived as a light engine but possibly only from the adjoining shed which did have a large coaling stage.

 

HP = hors ... ?

[clecklewyke]

So it looks as though the GWR in Cardiff (5min) was more efficient then the SNCF in Paris (10min)!

 

Pacific231 has shown us this diagram in another thread and it is absolutely fascinating. I wonder whether any British termini had such a logically arranged traffic pattern?

 

Many thanks to Johnster, Pacific231 and the others who have commented on my posting. I can now plan my timetable with much more confidence.

 

One point which should be remembered about CJF's plan was that it was based on the use of the rtr pointwork available at the time which comprised simple straight lh and rh points - no curved , tandems or slips - to create a smoothly flowing station throat. In reality pw engineers would have used more complex pointwork in such confined spaces. His "eureka" moment was to see how sharp S bends could be eliminated. This was relevant for the time but I would suggest is irrelevant in the days of Templot, hand-built track and even the variety of rtr track from Peco, Marcway etc. I've used curved Marcway turnouts to get a reasonably smoothly flowing throat without sharp reverse curves on Bradford North Western, Howard Bolton's P4 Minories is much better because he was able to use Templot to create a lovely smoothly curved layout.

 

Ian

[Joseph_Pestell]

HP = hors ... ?

More usually rendered as hlp, it is an abbreviation of haut-le-pied (light loco).

[Harlequin]

So it looks as though the GWR in Cardiff (5min) was more efficient then the SNCF in Paris (10min)!

 

Pacific231 has shown us this diagram in another thread and it is absolutely fascinating. I wonder whether any British termini had such a logically arranged traffic pattern?

 

Many thanks to Johnster, Pacific231 and the others who have commented on my posting. I can now plan my timetable with much more confidence.

 

One point which should be remembered about CJF's plan was that it was based on the use of the rtr pointwork available at the time which comprised simple straight lh and rh points - no curved , tandems or slips - to create a smoothly flowing station throat. In reality pw engineers would have used more complex pointwork in such confined spaces. His "eureka" moment was to see how sharp S bends could be eliminated. This was relevant for the time but I would suggest is irrelevant in the days of Templot, hand-built track and even the variety of rtr track from Peco, Marcway etc. I've used curved Marcway turnouts to get a reasonably smoothly flowing throat without sharp reverse curves on Bradford North Western, Howard Bolton's P4 Minories is much better because he was able to use Templot to create a lovely smoothly curved layout.

 

Ian

 

For those that don't want to hand-build track I think I showed earlier in this thread that it's possible to create a pretty good representation of a "classic" Minories layout using off-the-shelf straight left and right Peco Streamline parts.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60091-00-minories-track-plan-wanted/?view=findpost&p=2842274

Edited September 27, 2017 by Harlequin

[Pacific231G]

HP = hors ... ?

haut-le-pied literally high on the hoof. It was originally an equestrian term for an unencumbered  horse (one not carrying any load or pulling anything) that was adopted by the railways. Although the Est's traffic department showed it as HP in the Bastill diagram, light engines were( are?) normally referred to as h.l.p.or machines h.l.p. in things like rule books just by the initials with no mention of the original term it came from.

It's sometimes also been used to refer to empty carriage stock though VV (Voitures Vide) is the usual term for this.  

 

Given the huge input of British engineers and promoters into the first wave of French railway building, a lot of French railway terms were directly transliterated from English or were even English words; aiguilles - points, signalisation- signalling, enclenchement- interlocking,  rail-rail, train - train, but a few rather more poetic terms did emerge. Apart from haut-le-pied I rather like coeur de croisement - heart of the crossing- meaning frog (another equestrian term) or common crossing,  and crocodile the type of AWS ramp developed by Lartigue & Forest in 1872 and mandated for all main line railways after a disastrous crash in 1933 .

Edited September 28, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Compound2632]

More usually rendered as hlp, it is an abbreviation of haut-le-pied (light loco).

 

Thanks. A quick search shows that like many railway terms it has its origin in coaching - a horse without the burden of a rider or the traces of a coach or wagon would be 'high-stepping', also it could well be one that was being led round to its next job by an ostler on foot. Picture the iron horse being led from its stable to be put in the traces of its train of carriages.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Compound2632

[Flying Pig]

enclenchement- interlocking, 

 

An anglicised version of that, enclenchment, really deserves to be in common use. The locking frame could become the enclenchment engine. The BoT would require points and signals to be enclenched.

[Pacific231G]

So it looks as though the GWR in Cardiff (5min) was more efficient then the SNCF in Paris (10min)!

 

Pacific231 has shown us this diagram in another thread and it is absolutely fascinating. I wonder whether any British termini had such a logically arranged traffic pattern?

 

Many thanks to Johnster, Pacific231 and the others who have commented on my posting. I can now plan my timetable with much more confidence.

 

One point which should be remembered about CJF's plan was that it was based on the use of the rtr pointwork available at the time which comprised simple straight lh and rh points - no curved , tandems or slips - to create a smoothly flowing station throat. In reality pw engineers would have used more complex pointwork in such confined spaces. His "eureka" moment was to see how sharp S bends could be eliminated. This was relevant for the time but I would suggest is irrelevant in the days of Templot, hand-built track and even the variety of rtr track from Peco, Marcway etc. I've used curved Marcway turnouts to get a reasonably smoothly flowing throat without sharp reverse curves on Bradford North Western, Howard Bolton's P4 Minories is much better because he was able to use Templot to create a lovely smoothly curved layout.

 

Ian

How many platforms were being operated this way at Cardiff?

Sorry, just read your post again. With one platform and a loco road it's pretty easy as there's almost no shunting required but what's more critical is the cycle time, after the five minute turn round of the train how long would the newly released loco be be on the loco siding before its next train arrived? 

 

Getting five locos from arriving trains to the next batch of departures would have been rather more involved and re-reading the description in the Est paper it seems that at least one of them in each cycle - presumably the one with the most distant destination- did have to visit the shed. The others seem to have used a vacant bit of the throat pointwork but they stayed close to the platform they'd just come from.

 

The dwell time of ten minutes seems to have been determined by the Est as that required for passenger work and trains on this line also carried quite a lot of post and parcels in the fourgons (baggage/guard's vans) at each end of every train. In the 1920s most of the ground floor of the station building and the area beneath the concourse was taken up with post and parcels sorting rooms. Also, in 1925 the trains in use on the Ligne de Vincennes at Bastille were composed of four wheel double deckers with an upper saloon which probably would have taken longer to load and unload than conventional slam door compartment stock. From my own experience, when the two car DMU Greenford branch train came into Paddington (it now terminates at W. Ealing) it was on the platform for about six minutes before departing and in the rush hour it could be pretty packed though it does only carry passengers.

 

 

This is the complete timetable graph for the two hour evening rush as far out as Boissy-St. Leger. Further out it became far less busy and its outer end was positively rural.   

Edited September 27, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Clive Mortimore]

For those that don't want to hand-build track I think I showed earlier in this thread that it's possible to create a pretty good representation of a "classic" Minories layout using off-the-shelf straight left and right Peco Streamline parts.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60091-00-minories-track-plan-wanted/?view=findpost&p=2842274

And those who are silly enough to have a go at fitting scale size points into the same space and make their own track

 

 

 

 

Project abandoned when I realised I could get a sexy looking Minories with Peco slips and a 3 way and I moved on to Sheffield Exchange Mk1. I had problems with the diamond of the double slip, they could have been sorted but I couldn't be bothered.

[Siberian Snooper]

A class piece of S & C building, a pity you didn't proceed with it.

[Ian_H]

A class piece of S & C building, a pity you didn't proceed with it.

I thought it looked very good as well!

[Clive Mortimore]

A class piece of S & C building, a pity you didn't proceed with it.

 

I thought it looked very good as well!

Thanks

 

I kept hold of it in the "one day I will fix this " pile but when we sorting out to move I had to decide what I was going to take with me and what was never going to be finished, so sadly I said "bye bye" to it.

[clecklewyke]

Re layover times at termini, I've been checking those for Bradford Exchange (L&Y side) which was featured in an article called "The ins and outs" in Model Railways of January 1990. This published the original platform working schedule for the 1954 summer timetable. This is my "bible" from which I have derived  the fictional timetable for Bradford North Western. 

 

There are very few trains which both arrive and leave as passenger-carrying trains: the great majority either arrive or leave as ecs. The minimum layover I can find is 5 minutes but that was for a passenger train which I think arrived and unloaded then was propelled by the train engine to the carriage sidings. The great majority stay for 30 minutes or more. I guess Bradford Exchange was not a very busy commuter station.

 

Ian

[The Johnster]

No, Bradford Exchange was the Great Northern's main line terminus in the city, and had to deal with main line traffic.  This infers parcels, mails, carriage cleaning, train preparation in platforms, time to load supplies to restaurant cars and such.  Plenty going on but less overall intensity of train movement!  

 

Minories style get 'em in the platform, get 'em off the train, get 'em off the station, come on come on whistle hurry get 'em on the train, get the doors shut, get the train away, next please, chop chop suburban commuter work is a different ball game.  No more, or less, fun, but different.

Edited September 28, 2017 by The Johnster

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Entirely by chance, I happened upon Newcastle NSW.  

 

 

 

 

 

Another real life 'Minories' of a kind...

Edited September 28, 2017 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Compound2632]

No, Bradford Exchange was the Great Northern's main line terminus in the city, and had to deal with main line traffic.  This infers parcels, mails, carriage cleaning, train preparation in platforms, time to load supplies to restaurant cars and such.  Plenty going on but less overall intensity of train movement!  

 

Minories style get 'em in the platform, get 'em off the train, get 'em off the station, come on come on whistle hurry get 'em on the train, get the doors shut, get the train away, next please, chop chop suburban commuter work is a different ball game.  No more, or less, fun, but different.

 

Clecklewyke does refer to the Lancashire and Yorkshire side of the station, which, we read, was worked independently of the Great Northern side. Even on the Great Northern side, how many restaurant car expresses did the station handle per day?

[RJS1977]

Entirely by chance, I happened upon Newcastle NSW.  

 

Newcastle NSW.JPG

 

 

 

Another real life 'Minories' of a kind...

 

Can tell it's in Australia - the map's upside down!

[St Enodoc]

Entirely by chance, I happened upon Newcastle NSW.  

 

Newcastle NSW.JPG

 

5463287763_088a2889de_b.jpg

 

17420_a014_a014000678.jpg

 

68-14-1935-e.jpg

 

Another real life 'Minories' of a kind...

No more, sadly...

[JohnR]

Surely the GE 'Jazz' service into Liverpool Street was the sort of intensive operation CJF had in mind?