HS4000 - Stored in Russia

[Pixie]

Any chance that you have any evidence to confirm this statement.

 

http://www.derbysulzers.com/hs4000cardiff3.jpg

http://www.derbysulzers.com/hs4000cardiff1.jpg

http://www.derbysulzers.com/hs4000cardiff2.jpg

 

Anyway I have made a rough draft to send to the magazines but I keep asking which magazines to send it to. as I feel that if I was to send it to Steam Railway magazine they would not be interested.

 

The Railway Magazine and maybe Heritage Railways are worth a punt, the former seems to cover all bases of the hobby so seems a logical one to me. I'm not sure what kind of response the satelite images would get - at the end of the day they're incredibly grainy and 'Kestrel' is just over half the length it should be. If it sparked off a proper research project into find out definitively what happened to HS4000 then I'd certainly be interested in a read through, as I'm sure many others would be.

 

I'm very dubious that Kestrel is still out there but without solid proof either way I guess it'll always be a mystery with a slight glimmer of hope.

 

Pix

[James]

The only one that would be approbate would be the likes of Modern Locomotive Illustrated and Traction, help in which magazines to send this letter to would be appreciated.

 

Plus general ones such as Railway Magazine, Railways Illustrated and I'd even try Modern Railways - the latter is probably the most clued up of all the enthusiasts magazines when it comes to industry matters (it's the magazine RAIL would like to be) and so many non-enthusiasts read it within the industry that a letter may just get the right attention, you never know...

 

I could ask a friend at Brush if they'd be interested in their heritgae too?!

[Trainshed Terry]

Now that is the sort of evidence that I I am hoping to see more off.

 

"http://www.derbysulz...000cardiff3.jpg

http://www.derbysulz...000cardiff1.jpg

http://www.derbysulz...000cardiff2.jpg"

 

Terry.

[craigwelsh]

You'll have more chance if you aim for an April publishing date mind..

[Geoff Endacott]

I wonder if Ivan Andreev knows anything more.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Trainshed Terry]

I wonder if Ivan Andreev knows anything more.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Who. :blink:

 

Terry

[woodenhead]

Aerial shot of the experimental ring in Shcherbinka, Moscow.

And the VNITI (later VNIKTI) research & development centre, now Ð’ÐИКТИ at Kolomna, where the loco was believed to of been stored.

http://maps.google.c...F8&ll=55.077986,38.821338&spn=0.002543,0.010943&t=k&z=17

 

Well zooming in on that image I can clearly see a blue 08, a green Warship and an EWS 66 in the compound between the two buildings, how many locomotives have Russia spirited away from us.

[The Black Hat]

If people are so interested in the likes of Kestrel or Falcon, why doesnt a group take a stored engine, like a class 47 and convert it to become a prototype replica... it wouldnt be an exact replica, due to the transformation, but certainly its worth considering given Diesel preservation is ending up with every line having an example of each class of engine...

[Geoff Endacott]

Ivan Andreev is credited as the photographer of this http://www.train-photo.ru/details.php?image_id=43816 photograph which was uploaded on 21-03-2008. So if anyone is really interested in knowing more, why not send him an email via the host site?

 

Geoff Endacott

[Geoff Endacott]

Second thoughts, Ivan may not be much help. Below the photo he writes:

 

 

Subject: The fate of the stranger.

 

Was at Kolomna. Dismantled equipment went to laboratories for research. The rest stood by the fence. Now, as far as I know, it has been cut, as have many other unique locomotives.

 

 

So all Ivan the photographer seems to know is the usual "it has been cut up" story.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Craig Watson]

Second thoughts, Ivan may not be much help. Below the photo he writes:

 

 

Subject: The fate of the stranger.

 

Was at Kolomna. Dismantled equipment went to laboratories for research. The rest stood by the fence. Now, as far as I know, it has been cut, as have many other unique locomotives.

 

 

So all Ivan the photographer seems to know is the usual "it has been cut up" story.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

I doubt he took the pic in the link above over there, unless they secretly exported a class 50 too

 

Cheers

 

Craig

[Geoff Endacott]

The picture was obviously taken in the UK, but it was still uploaded to a Russian web site in 2008. That's more recent than any other information on here. However, the photographer himself seems not to know any more than the "it has been cut up" report.

 

Geoff Endacott

[vac_basher]

help in which magazines to send this letter to would be appreciated.

 

Rail Express is just about the only rail rag I reguarly buy thesedays. http://www.railexpress.co.uk/

[woodenhead]

The picture was obviously taken in the UK, but it was still uploaded to a Russian web site in 2008. That's more recent than any other information on here. However, the photographer himself seems not to know any more than the "it has been cut up" report.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Or he is a Russian agent sending misinformation back to the UK whilst Russia continues to hold on to Kestrel working up and down a track at some far flung Gulag.

[craigwelsh]

The picture was obviously taken in the UK, but it was still uploaded to a Russian web site in 2008. That's more recent than any other information on here. However, the photographer himself seems not to know any more than the "it has been cut up" report.

 

Geoff Endacott

I doubt the uploader is also the photographer of that shot.

 

It was supposed to have been scrapped prior to 1995.

http://www.derbysulzers.com/engineer.html

 

Oh and considering how it looked in the '80s http://www.parovoz.com/gallery/RU50/20091222_235774.jpg

http://www.parovoz.com/newgallery/pg_view.php?ID=239443&LNG=EN#picture

[Geoff Endacott]

Using my elementary knowledge of Russian (gleaned from writing about their space programme about 20 years ago) the second photo gives us a bit more. It was taken in 1985 by Station-Master and uploaded on 12-01-10.On 13-01-10 Igor wants more information about the loco. Dmitry also asks for more information on the same day.

 

The replies link through to a stack of other comments including one from Irina Ivanoff which states, “Near 1993 it was dismantled and then scrapped.â€

 

However, lower down is this. “Evidently it still existed in 2001. Is that true?†To this, Irina replies, “No.†She doesn't give any more details, but does have an email address at ivanoff.irina@gmail.com

 

So if anyone wants more information, you now have the email address of a Russian lady who may be able to help.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

[craigwelsh]

Google translate told me something similar. The 1st picture has more comments on it though, guess that was your link.

[Trainshed Terry]

Using my elementary knowledge of Russian (gleaned from writing about their space programme about 20 years ago) the second photo gives us a bit more. It was taken in 1985 by Station-Master and uploaded on 12-01-10.On 13-01-10 Igor wants more information about the loco. Dmitry also asks for more information on the same day.

 

The replies link through to a stack of other comments including one from Irina Ivanoff which states, “Near 1993 it was dismantled and then scrapped.â€

 

However, lower down is this. “Evidently it still existed in 2001. Is that true?†To this, Irina replies, “No.†She doesn't give any more details, but does have an email address at ivanoff.irina@gmail.com

 

So if anyone wants more information, you now have the email address of a Russian lady who may be able to help.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

 

Time to put the thinking cap on

 

Terry

[stuart galbraith]

You know, I'm sure I read somewhere that Stalin liked to play trains. I wouldn't have put it past him to have his own roundy-roundy built as a "test range"

 

Of course, I have a feeling that my source for Stalin's enjoyment of trains was Robert Harris' excellent novel Archangel, so hardly a reliable source.

 

 

Probably true. There was a story in a recent magazine that showed a 'Super Garratt' built for some obscure soviet order that was dispatched there in the 1930s. Supposedly it was built to show Soviet designs (which had a proper spec, unlike the insane one they gave Garatt) were much better designed and it was a failure. Strangely though, there were claims that it was used as late as the 1950s, supposedly to haul supplies to some Soviet nuclear test centre. Too much to hope it survived though!

 

Re Kestrel, rather than finding a sad pile of scrap metal, wouldnt it be cheaper to get the guys who built Tornado to build a replica? Id subscribe.

[br2975]

Any chance that you have any evidence to confirm this statement.

 

On Tuesday 8th. June 1971 I found HS4000 standing in Tidal Sidings, also present that afternoon were a Peak, D40 and the following shunters 3257, 3258, 3259, 3262, 3263.

.

My notes show that it was loaded onto the ship at the north arm of the Queen Alexandra Dock on Friday 11th. June, 1971 and shunters 3258 and 3260 were on hand.That is the location shown in the photos scanned above, apparently from Modern Railways - one of which shows the former 'cold stores' on the east end of the dock in the background.

.

To reach this point the loco would have been moved from Tidal via South East Jct. - Stonefield and across the Communication Passage swingbridge, reaching the loading point almost opposite the former 'patent fuel works'.

 

The boarding on the cab had the following written thereon:-

Contract No. 50/16031

Transport No. 466049

Item No.

Equipment No.

Gross Weight 87 Tonnes

Net Weight 86.5 Tonnes

Size 20.27 x 2.8 x 3.78 metres, 3.975 metres on stands.

.

I also wrote down the name of the ship, but as my keyboard doesn't have a function to type in 'cyrillic' the closest approximation was "KPACHOKAMCK"

.

I hope this information is sufficient to satisfy your comment ?

 

My notebook is available for 'carbon dating' and ESDA' testing if the content is in doubt.

.

Brian R

Cardiff

[Trainshed Terry]

It's not Kestrel, its a photo of something with a grey roof taken at about mid day, sometime June-August whichever year the satelite image was taken. Determined with the application of common sense.

 

 

Theres no doubt it got to Russia, this is it in 1985, and then 1971. From the 1985 an early alarm call and caffeine application is required I think ...

 

You clever person, I always wanted to know what the lump on the roof was, that answers one question. :good_mini: :clapping_mini:

 

Terry.

[James]

Re Kestrel, rather than finding a sad pile of scrap metal, wouldnt it be cheaper to get the guys who built Tornado to build a replica? Id subscribe.

 

Sadly probably not - it would be quite a different set of skills to construct a Kestrel replica.

[Trainshed Terry]

Sadly probably not - it would be quite a different set of skills to construct a Kestrel replica.

 

It still possible though and a good idea but what would it cost. But the main question would the blue prints still be around or would they been destroyed by now. The hardest things to find would be a engine and the associated control equipment.

 

Referring back to the second photo which shows it in Russia I am still trying to figure out on which set of motor bogies it is using, it is very difficult to but they look like the 14' 11" commonwealth design type.

 

Terry.

[Pennine MC]

Referring back to the second photo which shows it in Russia I am still trying to figure out on which set of motor bogies it is using, it is very difficult to but they look like the 14' 11" commonwealth design type.

 

 

IIRC it was exported on its original bogies (although regauged, obviously)

[vac_basher]

On Tuesday 8th. June 1971 I found HS4000 standing in Tidal Sidings, also present that afternoon were a Peak, D40 and the following shunters 3257, 3258, 3259, 3262, 3263.

.

My notes show that it was loaded onto the ship at the north arm of the Queen Alexandra Dock on Friday 11th. June, 1971 and shunters 3258 and 3260 were on hand.That is the location shown in the photos scanned above, apparently from Modern Railways - one of which shows the former 'cold stores' on the east end of the dock in the background.

.

To reach this point the loco would have been moved from Tidal via South East Jct. - Stonefield and across the Communication Passage swingbridge, reaching the loading point almost opposite the former 'patent fuel works'.

 

The boarding on the cab had the following written thereon:-

Contract No. 50/16031

Transport No. 466049

Item No.

Equipment No.

Gross Weight 87 Tonnes

Net Weight 86.5 Tonnes

Size 20.27 x 2.8 x 3.78 metres, 3.975 metres on stands.

.

I also wrote down the name of the ship, but as my keyboard doesn't have a function to type in 'cyrillic' the closest approximation was "KPACHOKAMCK"

.

I hope this information is sufficient to satisfy your comment ?

 

My notebook is available for 'carbon dating' and ESDA' testing if the content is in doubt.

.

Brian R

Cardiff

 

What subsequently happened was, that KestrAl set sail from Southampton aboard the KPACHOKAMCK, but never made it to Russia. Instead she was off loaded at Plymouth and moved to Laira, where they removed the Soviet style headlight. The locomotive was then kept hidden in an unused tin mine in Cornwall for many years. In 1990 it was moved from Cornwall to the Woodhead tunnel by 50019 (picture as proof, seen here heading towards Parsons Tunnel near Dawlish) . And it's stayed there until this very day....

 

 

P.S.: When I took this pic, back in 1990, I'm 100% certain Elvis Presley was driving the 50.