Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Tony, can I ask how your friend's F6s had been persuaded to go round corners?   I haven't built the Stephen Poole one but the Gibson one had to have the frames cut through where the front steps hide the join and become a 2-6-0 before it would even consider anything less than straight.

 

I did look at tapering the frames and the LRM radial axle assembly, but I wasn't convinced they would give me as much movement as was required.

Good morning Jonathan,

 

What I did was to remove the front/rear frame spacers, and cut them down in width. I then joggled the frames inwards. The next trick was to considerable enlarge the bearing holes for the ponies' axles (which gives them some movement beyond a right angle - anathema to an engineer?), finally adding a light wire 'spring' to bear on the top of the ponies' axles. 

 

That way, it then negotiated 2' 6" radius curves. It's obviously not 'right', but it works.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Northmoor]

37 minutes ago, AVS1998 said:

 

Whenever I'm writing anything for a society or publication I ask which format they prefer, any processor that I should avoid (some prefer Google docs, others Word etc etc), and I try to follow those strictures as closely as possible to make the editor's job easier. And I think opening oneself up to proof reading is always a good idea, as there will no no doubt be lexical choices or grammatical errors that don't always fit. There's always at least one mistake and I'm glad other people can find it! 

I submitted a series of articles to the RCTS magazine two years ago and they haven't been published yet.  I'm sure there would have been some errors of grammar etc. to correct, but I would hope they trusted my captions to my own photographs.  I clearly remembered taking most of them.  However, the RCTS, being an organisation of record as they are, do tend to focus in their captions on details of the train that I simply never recorded.

[FarrMan]

1 hour ago, AVS1998 said:

And I think opening oneself up to proof reading is always a good idea, as there will no no doubt be lexical choices or grammatical errors that don't always fit. There's always at least one mistake and I'm glad other people can find it! 

 

Peer reviewing and proof reading are two different operations. Peer reviewing would always be beneficial, even if only to confirm what has been written, but the problems are time and finding a suitable candidate. Proof reading does not normally take a specialist, just someone who can spell and understands grammar, and should always be done if at all possible. i have seen numerous examples of bad grammar (e.g. sentences without a verb) even in professional magazines, that should never have got through to print stage. Proof reading does not ensure that all errors are spotted in time, though. I recall something that had been proof read by at least four different people, but it was the printer who noticed that an 'l' was missing from 'public worship', so that it was corrected in time - thankfully!

 

Lloyd

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Jonathan,

 

What I did was to remove the front/rear frame spacers, and cut them down in width. I then joggled the frames inwards. The next trick was to considerable enlarge the bearing holes for the ponies' axles (which gives them some movement beyond a right angle - anathema to an engineer?), finally adding a light wire 'spring' to bear on the top of the ponies' axles. 

 

That way, it then negotiated 2' 6" radius curves. It's obviously not 'right', but it works.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

Frames behind radial wheels were always joggled inwards but not many kit designers seem to have realised this. Your solution might "engineering anathema" but if it works it's OK - simple side movement usually causes the radial wheel flanges to climb the rail, resulting in random derailments on plain track.

[john new]

5 hours ago, FarrMan said:

 

Peer reviewing and proof reading are two different operations. Peer reviewing would always be beneficial, even if only to confirm what has been written, but the problems are time and finding a suitable candidate. Proof reading does not normally take a specialist, just someone who can spell and understands grammar, and should always be done if at all possible. i have seen numerous examples of bad grammar (e.g. sentences without a verb) even in professional magazines, that should never have got through to print stage. Proof reading does not ensure that all errors are spotted in time, though. I recall something that had been proof read by at least four different people, but it was the printer who noticed that an 'l' was missing from 'public worship', so that it was corrected in time - thankfully!

 

Lloyd

The old joke was always something like “how do you finally proof read a document, print 500 copies.” 
 

One of the drawbacks to modern digital editing is when you accidentally hit undo twice instead of once. What you have corrected then gets undone. The other is the accidental double paste, the first going in somewhere totally random. The benefit to on-line versions is you can instantly correct and change it when an error is found. 
 

Anyway enough of the OT rambling, must get some modelling, or at least running, done before having to get back to setting up the next edition.

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by john new
Typos corrected

[Tony Wright]

Inspirational?

 

 

Geoff Haynes' most-recent essay in O Gauge..........................

 

All his own work.

 

Speaking of 'own' work, I'm occasionally taken to task (in a polite way) for not doing my own (lined) painting.

 

Well, for one, never in a million years could I get this close to painting excellence. And, anyway, part of my 'payment' for Geoff's painting is to take pictures like this for him.

 

Would anyone be 'criticised' for not taking their own pictures of their own models I wonder? 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Tony Wright]

18 hours ago, PupCam said:

I acquired Vols 1 & 2 of Peter Coster's  "The Book of the Great Northern, The Mainline, An Engineering Commentary" shortly after they emerged.  

 

I seem to recall a lot of criticism (certainly within the GNRS of which I was a member) of the books short comings and inaccuracies but I think I must have been looking at different books!   I find them to be a fascinating, informative and in the case of the north London / Hertfordshire entries nostalgic books.  Yes I'm sure there are errors but they are certainly by far the best books on the subject that I have ever come across.  What do you mean there are no other books on the subject? - Exactly!  I often find myself plucking one of them from the bookshelf for a few minutes pondering, something which can't be said for the vast majority of books in my fairly extensive book collection that continue to gather dust. 

 

I'm also amused to see that in the photograph of  Welwyn North's car park in Vol 2, the Austin Seven Mini's registration number is numerically less than ten from that of my first car, an Austin Seven Mini that I purchased from a private seller less than two miles from that very station!

 

Whilst we are on about inaccuracies and Bloopers,  I purchased a copy of "Diesel Dawn - 1 Deltics" at the Stevenage exhibition in January and I quote from the first page;  "... and the petrol (Napier) 'Sabre' famously powered the Gloster 'Typhoon', built from 1941". 

 

It didn't, it powered the Hawker Typhoon albeit built at Gloster's Hucclecote works as a matter of wartime expediency, aided by the fact that Gloster were actually part of the ever-growing Hawker establishment by then.   Many years later Gloster's produced the Gloster Javelin which entered service as Britain's first operational delta winged aircraft.  It was never a Hawker Javelin ......

 

Nevertheless, some fabulous photographs of Deltics to which I'm very partial!

 

Alan

I think part of the criticism related to trains' directions, Alan. 

 

There are several instances where 'Up' and 'Down' are the opposite of what they should. And, a few loco classes are muddled up. 

 

Also, 'Askern Tunnel'? Askern doesn't have a tunnel, though Askham does. 

 

In a way, this sort of thing illustrates the problems for a proof reader. Though a good proof reader will intercept grammatical bloopers (or should do), unless that proof reader has a decent knowledge of the subject he/she is proofing, then mistakes (such as those just mentioned) will inevitably sneak through. 

 

Occasionally, 'best-guesses' have to be made. With regard to muddling Up and Down, often the direction of light will give the answer. I've just 'corrected' such a case where the summer 'Flying Scotsman' was described as the Down train. Yet, the smokebox door on the loco is fully-lit (and it's not travelling westwards along the Forth Estuary). It also helped knowing the train's formation, of course................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tony Wright
to add something

[2750Papyrus]

I also find Coster's books to form a mine of information.  (By coincidence, I have just referred to them on another thread). 

 

It must be very difficult for any author to ensure 100% accuracy - one of my recent book acquisitions was "peer reviewed" by members of the relevant line society but still has views described 180 degrees in error.

 

[Clem]

19 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Why not?

 

Come on Clive!

 

How common were these duds along the ECML? I never saw one other than in the North West, and most of those were laid up. One stuttered across the Kent Estuary at Arnside in 1967, and that was about it. 

 

When I next see you, I'll give you the book.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

D5700 was the very first main line diesel I saw. I was seven years old. It was 1958, Nottingham Midland station. It pulled into platform 4 from the West, stayed at the West end of the station for a few minutes and then left for Derby. It was on a test run from Derby. A load of us kids crowded around looking at it in complete consternation. Nobody knew anything about it. Over the next few months we all got sick of them. Better memories of that year include being part of the crowd many times standing next to the Britannia in platform 5 on the 2-25pm London-Manchester, trips to Lincoln and Newark Northgate. But I suppose D5700 did leave an impression on me.

[Theakerr]

22 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I wish that writing a well-informed caption would be quick and easy................. I note your speech marks. 

 

I don't think it's a phenomenon that problems arise with 'reliable sources' departing this earth'. Many unreliable (very-unreliable) sources have also succumbed to mortality. 

 

I think the problem with many more-recent book captions is that the writer just 'plagiarises' the 'established works', particularly with regard to locos' build/withdrawal dates. It's quick, it's easy and it's lazy.

 

Another problem is the writers don't use their eyes................

 

In a pictorial book I'm just reviewing, the very first image (which is superbly reproduced, as are all the rest) relates to an A2/3. What does the caption writer refer to? The 'grey/black smoke' coming from her double chimney (caused by poor coal). The author suggests that the loco 'prepares to depart'. However, look again. How could it depart in reverse gear? What's really happening is that the loco is just setting back to its train (a loco change?), and it's in reverse. It's also carrying a 'tail' lamp on it's RH lower lamp bracket. 

 

Look some more. The first carriage is a brand new Mk.1, running on Commonwealth bogies. And, also look at the electric warning flashes, so how can it be in 1960? 

 

If I'd written the caption (not that my caption-writing is that good) I'd have gone through my sources and found out which Up trains stopped at York in the mid-afternoon (the smokebox is in full illumination) and changed locos. That way, it then might have been possible to identify the actual service. Who needs to be told about the smoke?

 

The second picture (also taken at York) shows 60066 running non-stop through the great train shed heading north. I know it's a 'passenger express', but I also know it's the Down morning 'Talisman'. How? Through the scrutiny of records. 

 

This could have been a brilliant book, and I did enjoy looking at the superb pictures. But, what an opportunity missed..............

 

 

Tony, I suggest that you have essentially re-enforced the quote which was 'so writing something that looks like a well informed caption is a quick and easy answer!'  The quote, which BTW was actually posted by someone else on the thread, actually says that looks like.   You do put in the effort and research and your captions are respected and believed by people who know you, your knowledge base and your ethics.  However, and as I said I have seen it in many areas, there is a growing segment of society that is prepared to believe anything if it even slightly appears authentic.   You have only to look at Social Media where Pseudo Science or even make believe Science is automatically considered the truth.

[Northmoor]

27 minutes ago, Theakerr said:

You have only to look at Social Media where Pseudo Science or even make believe Science is automatically considered the truth.

The problem in social media - and this applies to a model railway-related query the same as anything else - is that the kudos often goes to the person with the fastest response, not the one with the right response.

[Tony Wright]

56 minutes ago, Theakerr said:

Tony, I suggest that you have essentially re-enforced the quote which was 'so writing something that looks like a well informed caption is a quick and easy answer!'  The quote, which BTW was actually posted by someone else on the thread, actually says that looks like.   You do put in the effort and research and your captions are respected and believed by people who know you, your knowledge base and your ethics.  However, and as I said I have seen it in many areas, there is a growing segment of society that is prepared to believe anything if it even slightly appears authentic.   You have only to look at Social Media where Pseudo Science or even make believe Science is automatically considered the truth.

Many thanks,

 

Your comments are much-appreciated. 

 

I occasionally muse over whether too much is made of photo captions. Could it be a case of 'less is more'? 

 

One of the greatest of railway photographers is Colin Gifford. Yet, look at the captions in his books. 'Stockport' I recall was the whole caption for one superbly-atmospheric shot. 

 

I have to say, at times I found this quite frustrating. As a model-maker I also wished for 'why', 'what' and 'when'; not just where. 

 

On the other hand, is a caption reduced to the bone better than an incorrect one? Had the late Keith Pirt decided on another avenue of publishing than railway photography, he could have become the railway equivalent of Enid Blyton! And, some of great Eric Treacy's 'notes' are more akin to fiction than fact.....................

 

I often ask myself the question, does it matter? As is well known, I've written many captions for BRILL. Naturally, these are on ECML subjects. One 'critic' once took me to task regarding a date because an A4 didn't have electric warning flashes. How can you say it's 1961 - there are no flashes?'. Ah, but, 60031 didn't have them then, neither did 60002 and 60011 never got them at all! I sometimes wonder whether I'm on the spectrum of some 'condition'.

 

On other occasions, knowledge of other things can help. In my more-recent bookazine on Deltics, a superb photograph of one of the great Type 5s gave no location. Yet, just in shot on the horizon was Selby Abbey. 

 

I think the greatest danger for the caption writer/author is believing that he/she has got it right.

 

Ignorance can lead to omitting some important fact in a caption. In my first Irwell bookazine containing pictures I'd taken, on commenting respectively about a Class 31 and a Class 40 at York, I neglected to mention that the 31 was unique in having a different engine to the rest (some difference in the body-side grilles, I believe) and that the leading carriage in the 40's train was a prototype! The dates were dead right, but I should have known more.

 

Perhaps we should just revel in some superb imagery. Does some of it need any captions? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tony Wright
typo error

[PupCam]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I think part of the criticism related to trains' directions, Alan.

 

Tony it's amazing how different people look at things in completely different ways!  

 

Do you know I was almost completely unaware of the trains (in those shots that have them) in fact I just had another quick flick through to reminded myself that there were actually some photographs with trains present.    Clearly I haven't bothered studying the trains, they were just getting in the way  of the subject of my interest in these books - the glorious GN architecture and of course the marvellous OS maps.  

 

With regard to the shots of trains out on the open main line  but with no architecture/infrastructure interest; I do believe that I've given them only  the most cursory of glances.   Now in the shots of say, New Barnet under the platform canopies or of the covered entrances I can still smell those characteristic odours that lingered around such places and as for the old cars in the station car parks, well that's a different thing entirely!

 

On reflection I could now be slightly critical of the books inasmuch as there are too many photographs where the non-train interest is obscured by those pesky trains to which you refer or there is no non-train interest at all which, given the purpose of the volumes, just seems to be a waste of valuable space.   However, and as I mentioned previously, these are by far the best books available covering the subject matter unless of course others know better and in which case will you please spill the beans?

 

Anyway, I find the different viewpoints quite fascinating!

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PupCam]

50 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I sometimes wonder whether I'm on the spectrum of some 'condition'.

 

I'm sure everybody is Tony.  To not be would be to suggest some people are "normal" and I'm also fairly certain there is no such thing as that!

 

Alan

[LNER4479]

39 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

I occasionally muse over whether too much is made of photo captions. Could it be a case of 'less is more'? 

 

One of the greatest of railway photographers is Colin Gifford. Yet, look at the captions in his books. 'Stockport' I recall was the whole caption for one superbly-atmospheric shot. 

 

That's about all you really need to say about Stockport ... (with apologies to any Stopfordians out there. Up the Hatters!)

 

Interesting to read the conversation about books and captions - I too cannot abide it when every caption incessantly quotes the scrapping date and location. As you are already aware (Tony), I have just completed the process of writing what might well be the 'one book within me' and am now awaiting for it to be published.

https://www.mortonsbooks.co.uk/product/view/productCode/15097

 

My approach was to try and think of something interesting / informative as the caption to each picture and make each one different, whilst at the same time linking  them together to tell a story. In some cases this was easy, as I already knew the background to the picture; in others, I had to do a bit of research (surely as easy as it's ever been with the internet at your finger tips?). But that was all part of the fun as far as I was concerned.

 

As for review, I wouldn't have dreamed of forwarding it to the publisher without having a second set of eyes look at it. In fact five different pairs of eyes in all, including your good self. If there's any 'bloopers' still in the text, then its evaded the scrutiny of us all!

 

And, would you believe, in reference to my opening quip, that the photographer whose photos are the subject of the book, lived in the Stockport area (although travelled widely in his relentless search for that elusive 'cop'). It was certainly an interesting enough railway location in its heyday.

[Doncaster Green]

4 hours ago, Clem said:

 and Newark Northgate. 

Ah! Northgate of fond memory.  I daren’t say the number of days I spent there when I should have been elsewhere, like school.   Also the missing link!   We have Peterborough North, Little Bytham and Grantham then skip to Retford.  I’d love to do Northgate from Beacon Hill bridge to Lincoln Road bridge, although to get the Melton line junction you have to go further south to Clay Lane.  (Sighs heavily).  Even in 2mm I would need far more space (and years) than I’ve got.

 

John

[jrg1]

7 hours ago, Clem said:

D5700 was the very first main line diesel I saw. I was seven years old. It was 1958, Nottingham Midland station. It pulled into platform 4 from the West, stayed at the West end of the station for a few minutes and then left for Derby. It was on a test run from Derby. A load of us kids crowded around looking at it in complete consternation. Nobody knew anything about it. Over the next few months we all got sick of them. Better memories of that year include being part of the crowd many times standing next to the Britannia in platform 5 on the 2-25pm London-Manchester, trips to Lincoln and Newark Northgate. But I suppose D5700 did leave an impression on me.

The Metro-Vicks were a standout for all the wrong reasons.  Although the electrical system was  considered quite good, the Crossley engine was quite a different matter.  CIE had an entire fleet of these, and re-engined the lot.  I believe they never ordered British engines again.

Here in Australia, the X class were a derivative, and famous for all the wrong reasons.  

I remember doing performance checks on a Crossley engine at marine college, and even wearing aviation ear muffs, the noise was still deafening.

I recently read that the class was scheduled for re-engining with EE engines, but the engines went to the class 31s and the class 28 went to the scrapheap.  There was a photograph in LI of two class 28's being towed to the scrapyard.....by a steam engine they were supposed to replace.

[jrg1]

2 hours ago, Doncaster Green said:

Ah! Northgate of fond memory.  I daren’t say the number of days I spent there when I should have been elsewhere, like school.   Also the missing link!   We have Peterborough North, Little Bytham and Grantham then skip to Retford.  I’d love to do Northgate from Beacon Hill bridge to Lincoln Road bridge, although to get the Melton line junction you have to go further south to Clay Lane.  (Sighs heavily).  Even in 2mm I would need far more space (and years) than I’ve got.

 

John

You could model the link from Newark Castle to Northgate-that would be an interesting exercise.  I have photographs of a railtour that traversed this, if you are interested.

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I think part of the criticism related to trains' directions, Alan. 

 

There are several instances where 'Up' and 'Down' are the opposite of what they should. And, a few loco classes are muddled up. 

 

Also, 'Askern Tunnel'? Askern doesn't have a tunnel, though Askham does. 

 

In a way, this sort of thing illustrates the problems for a proof reader. Though a good proof reader will intercept grammatical bloopers (or should do), unless that proof reader has a decent knowledge of the subject he/she is proofing, then mistakes (such as those just mentioned) will inevitably sneak through. 

 

Occasionally, 'best-guesses' have to be made. With regard to muddling Up and Down, often the direction of light will give the answer. I've just 'corrected' such a case where the summer 'Flying Scotsman' was described as the Down train. Yet, the smokebox door on the loco is fully-lit (and it's not travelling westwards along the Forth Estuary). It also helped knowing the train's formation, of course................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Which, as someone else has already mentioned, highlights the difference between proof-reading and peer-reviewing.

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, PupCam said:

 

Tony it's amazing how different people look at things in completely different ways!  

 

Do you know I was almost completely unaware of the trains (in those shots that have them) in fact I just had another quick flick through to reminded myself that there were actually some photographs with trains present.    Clearly I haven't bothered studying the trains, they were just getting in the way  of the subject of my interest in these books - the glorious GN architecture and of course the marvellous OS maps.  

 

With regard to the shots of trains out on the open main line  but with no architecture/infrastructure interest; I do believe that I've given them only  the most cursory of glances.   Now in the shots of say, New Barnet under the platform canopies or of the covered entrances I can still smell those characteristic odours that lingered around such places and as for the old cars in the station car parks, well that's a different thing entirely!

 

On reflection I could now be slightly critical of the books inasmuch as there are too many photographs where the non-train interest is obscured by those pesky trains to which you refer or there is no non-train interest at all which, given the purpose of the volumes, just seems to be a waste of valuable space.   However, and as I mentioned previously, these are by far the best books available covering the subject matter unless of course others know better and in which case will you please spill the beans?

 

Anyway, I find the different viewpoints quite fascinating!

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good morning Alan,

 

It's good that there are many different ways of looking at things. 

 

I suppose that because of my having a principal interest in the locos and trains in a picture I'm more aware of which way they're going. 

 

Among many books on my 'review list' is a quite visually-splendid volume on freight workings in the North of England (which includes the East Midlands, which I don't consider to be north at all - where we live now is in the East Mids, less than 100 miles from London; how can that be the North?). 

 

Anyway, included in this book are two shots at Trent. Now, this exciting location was a haunt of my trainspotting years (sometimes I didn't know where to look!), at which I spent many happy hours. Though the two pictures taken from the station are very good, the captions regarding the directions of the trains are as 'wrong' as is possible. Both are the opposite of what they should be. Thus the iron ore wagons are empty, as are the coal wagons. Both trains are returning to where they'll be next filled, not taking iron ore/coal to Staveley or London respectively.  What compounds the error is that Trent North Junction is accurately described.

 

Does this matter? To modellers, definitely. It would be like my running empty rakes of minerals southwards and full ones northward on Little Bytham. 

 

In another shot, the goods train in view is actually entering Doncaster, not leaving it. It's left Decoy Yard, but the caption is ambiguous to say the least. 

 

Do these 'proofing errors' matter? Should I mention them in my review? Do they matter? The book covers the years 1955 to 2018, so will be of wide interest. It's beautifully-presented and printed, with some images in colour and I've enjoyed reading it. However, I know the errors I've mentioned. Are there any others, related to locations I'm not familiar with?

 

Who'd be a proof-reader? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Tony Wright]

42 minutes ago, Chamby said:

Clive, look again.

 

LI refers to the publication... Locomotives Illustrated, at a guess.

 

”what you thought you read, is not what I thought I wrote”.  Highlighting another issue with caption writing!

Good morning Phil,

 

I can't find Clive's post which you quote (deleted?). 

 

If nothing else it proves the maxim of carefully reading something first before responding to it. Is this an electronic media phenomenon? The phenomenon of immediacy?  Time was when the response to an article/piece was by written media, and the post. A time to consider, reflect and think twice?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[St Enodoc]

42 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

where we live now is in the East Mids, less than 100 miles from London; how can that be the North?

Coming from London, the North begins just after Hatfield.

[Northmoor]

6 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Coming from London, the North begins just after Hatfield.

A phenomenon of the London-centric media is believing The North is all one area.  I remember an FA Cup game between Blyth Spartans and Hartlepool United being described as a "Local Derby".  It's actually a bit like Brighton playing Arsenal.

[grahame]

On 26/09/2020 at 03:14, St Enodoc said:

That's fair comment as far as a journal/periodical is concerned, John, but the lead times and deadlines for books should allow more time for peer review (although as you say it's not always easy to find the right peer).

 

And, of course, a suitable peer (as/more knowledgeable than the author/photographer) may not even exist.

 

[3rd Rail Exile]

37 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Coming from London, the North begins just after Hatfield.

 

Coming from South London (actually, one of those suburbs that wasn't even part of London until 1965), the North begins at that wiggly, watery thing that many taxi drivers in the West End "wouldn't go south of at this time of night"  

 

aka "The Thames"...

Edited September 27, 2020 by 3rd Rail Exile
improve clarity