Wright writes.....

[Michael Edge]

5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Weirdly, despite being a DC dinosaur myself, I have actually set up this facility for a friend's layout which uses the extra 'C'. The layout is wired up into zones (districts, I think they call them?). For the main circuit, there's a DCC to DC switch for each running line so you can use a DC loco to run around on the mainline. But not in the yard area! That would cause carnage.

My fiddle yard has two sections which are DC or DCC depending on whether it is connected to Herculaneum Dock or Wentworth Junction - at one end there are two changeover switches, at the other end it's done by the plug connections.

[john new]

3 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

My layout's DCC but it's wired for cab control with sections as well, so I can flip a DPDT (actually two, as I'm too thick to work out how to do the wiring otherwise) and then it reverts to DC. As I've mentioned before, when I started going down the route of DCC  I did take a hard look at my loco roster and concluded that all the problem cases were either pre-nationalisation models or which could be easily backdated. I therefore tend to run the layout in DCC mode for half a year or so, then DC, and so on.

 

Now and then I've accidentally had a DC loco in-circuit on DCC power, but no harm's come to any of them. That said, I haven't yet run one of these coreless motored models and I imagine they might be a bit more susceptible.

I am still in the cusp period of switching to DCC with a mix of stock and only a small layout. Wire it as if for DC, then just switch everything to on for DCC, seems to be the most sensible idea. Even if you never run DC by having sections the option of switching the sections off must aid fault finding in DCC. We have all seen totally dead DCC layouts, perhaps not having enough sections that can be switch isolated for identifying where a fault lies is a false economy.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by john new
Typo.

[gr.king]

Besides the practical advantages of the facility to operate on either DC or DCC, according to one's own choice of stock, and the facility to isolate faults leaving the rest of the layout operable, it strikes me that proper sectional wiring is open-minded and sociable. If a guest is invited, either at home or as an extra pair of hands at a show, and has locos/stock in the right scale and period, then he can be allowed to join in fully and run some of his own items, irrespective of their electrical system. DCC only, sectionless wiring (at its worst with both routes from all points permanently live) strikes me as an example of being naive or possibly lazy, or inviting electrical trouble, or even being anti-social towards potential guests and helpers.

[Theakerr]

Life at times can be quiet strange.  There are those who cannot abide plunger pick-up yet I have been using Alan Gibson plunger pick-ups for years and love them.  Springy wire things on the other hand have never been anything but problematic for me. Anyway, now i have the pee-amble finished I will continue.   I am in the process of building a Nu-Cast J6 and don't want to install plunger pick-ups until I have decided what gearbox will eventually be used since they might get in the way.   So I have experimented using DCC concepts ready made pick-ups.  After installing a plastic cross member,  insulation strip and lengthening the mounting hole to give lateral movement, they were a very easy fit.  They work quiet well and an added benefit is the fact that they self center the wheels.  I am not trying to convert anyone, I post this just for information (and amusement)

[Theakerr]

For my semaphore signals I have been using traditional servos and Mega Point controllers for 3/4 years now.  Due to the footprint size of a traditional servo motor the servos had to be mounted under the baseboard with only a small hole for the actuating wire through the baseboard.  Working on the underside of the baseboard was a bit of a pain so when I saw miniature  servos advertised and purchased three and thought i would give them a try on a signal that had got in the way of my arm, i.e broken.  Attached are some photos of the result.  The traditional servo is on the right of the 1st picture.  Pretty happy.  Significantly reduced footprint and the Mega Point Servo control works for them

 

Sourced from https://hobbyking.com/en_us/radio-servos/servos.html?___store=en_us#q=&idx=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products&dFR[warehouses][0]=USA&dFR[warehouses][1]=Global&dFR[warehouses_stock_data][0]=USA|1&dFR[warehouses_stock_data][1]=USA|2&dFR[warehouses_stock_data][2]=USA|3&dFR[warehouses_stock_data][3]=Global|1&dFR[warehouses_stock_data][4]=Global|2&dFR[warehouses_stock_data][5]=Global|3&hFR[categories.level0][0]=Radio %2F Servos %2F%2F%2F Servos&nR[a_mm][<%3D][0]=24&nR[b_mm][<%3D][0]=65&nR[c_mm][<%3D][0]=27&is_v=1

I used the HK5320

[Chamby]

A note of caution to those running DCC loco’s on DC layouts... Always make sure that any Relco’s are switched out before running, unless you like your chips fried!

 

John New, I recommend fitting circuit breakers to each zone.  Both safer and more effective that using isolating switches as when something shorts out then it doesn’t affect the other zones.  

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, gr.king said:

Besides the practical advantages of the facility to operate on either DC or DCC, according to one's own choice of stock, and the facility to isolate faults leaving the rest of the layout operable, it strikes me that proper sectional wiring is open-minded and sociable. If a guest is invited, either at home or as an extra pair of hands at a show, and has locos/stock in the right scale and period, then he can be allowed to join in fully and run some of his own items, irrespective of their electrical system. DCC only, sectionless wiring (at its worst with both routes from all points permanently live) strikes me as an example of being naive or possibly lazy, or inviting electrical trouble, or even being anti-social towards potential guests and helpers.

A sound observation, Graeme, at least in my opinion.

 

It's been a great privilege of mine to be able to host literally hundreds of visiting locos to run on Little Bytham, both DC and DCC. The only DCC locos which don't work are those where the chip has been 'instructed' not to work on DC, which can be baffling at times. 

 

For those who bring their own DCC controllers, they're simply plugged-in (the controllers, not the locos' owners; I must banish ambiguity from my prose!), my system is disconnected (by just flicking four switches), all relevant section switches are switched on and away they go (the locos, not the switches or the loco owners). Truly the best of both worlds?

 

Of course, if the types of systems you cite suit the owners/operators, then that's up to them. However, it does restrict the use of visiting locos. 

 

Regarding visiting locos (and it's been great to host some of yours), I must say I find them much more interesting than mine, which I can see on any day at any time. Those who have a 'restrictive' system of control are denied that privilege to some extent. 

 

One system of control I cannot 'get' is where everything is controlled from the same tablet - locos, routes, points, signals, etc. Not only is it wholly-unlike how a real railway is controlled (especially a steam-age one), but it seems to me to restrict the potential 'fun' part of the process of operating a model railway, especially with friends. On LB, some visitors are drivers, some operate the signals/points while one operates the rest of the ECML (the fiddle yard). That social interaction and huge operating fun is something I've missed more than anything else in recent times. For those who only operate their railway by themselves (which I never do, except for testing), I suppose the single tablet 'works', but a huge amount of social fun is lost to them, in my opinion (not that Covid has allowed much social fun of late!). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Barry Ten]

4 hours ago, john new said:

I am still in the cusp period of switching to DCC with a mix of stock and only a small layout. Wire it as if for DC, then just switch everything to on for DCC, seems to be the most sensible idea. Even if you never run DC by having sections the option of switching the sections off must aid fault finding in DCC. We have all seen totally dead DCC layouts, perhaps not having enough sections that can be switch isolated for identifying where a fault lies is a false economy.

 

 

Another advantage to being able to go DC, is that I wouldn't dream of building a loco and then not giving it a lot of testing on DC before eventually adding a decoder. I want to make sure all electrical issues are resolved first, which means extensive running under various loads and across all track formations in the up and down directions. It's far easier to chase down a niggling short in DC than in DCC.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Barry Ten

[john new]

1 hour ago, Chamby said:

A note of caution to those running DCC loco’s on DC layouts... Always make sure that any Relco’s are switched out before running, unless you like your chips fried!

 

John New, I recommend fitting circuit breakers to each zone.  Both safer and more effective that using isolating switches as when something shorts out then it doesn’t affect the other zones.  

 

Thanks for the tip @Chamby. I do have some protection in the DCC circuit as it runs through one of the set of big glow-bulb like fuses as recommended by NEC to go with their Powercab system. There is more capacity in the unit for expansion in the future or if the system ever goes into a later, larger, layout. Happy to add more protection though if necessary. 

 

The two controllers I use are a Gaugemaster W (Analogue/DC) and an NEC PowerCab throttle (DCC) which are both wander-lead plug in devices. Again to minimise errors they feed the switch panel  via a DPDT switch. The fact the feed to the panel is through this DPDT means that even if I was ever stupid enough to accidentally plug both in at once only one could feed power to the layout.

 

My thoughts re fault finding are that if it isn't immediately obvious, and you turn all the sections off unless the fault is up the line and in the control gear it will go away (a fault finding answer in itself). Turning each section on one by one individually will then therefore aid identification of where the fault is. It will only re-trigger when the faulty section is energised.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by john new
Added extra observation

[Lemmy282]

3 hours ago, gr.king said:

DCC only, sectionless wiring (at its worst with both routes from all points permanently live) strikes me as an example of being naive or possibly lazy, or inviting electrical trouble, or even being anti-social towards potential guests and helpers.

Maybe, but if running DCC sound equipped loco's it makes sense to have all the layout permanently live, as sound would be cut off when points were changed. On the real railway, you would be in a lot of trouble driving against an incorrectly set route, so in a way DCC places more importance in operating in a more prototypical manner.

[Lemmy282]

In early DCC systems there was the option to operate a non chipped loco as address 0. This gave a slightly reduced voltage which didn't do as much damage to a normal motor, although I wouldn't recommend try a coreless motor on it. More modern systems don't have this facility. One problem with running a DCC chipped loco on DC is that it will never run as smoothly as on DCC because the chip needs about 4.5v before it wakes up, so they tend to start a bit like a startled rabbit! To get the most out of a DCC decoder it is best to disable the DC conversion facility.

Just to clear thing up, a DCC signal is not AC, it is a square wave DC signal, the information for the decoder is superimposed on this basic waveform.

[Jack P]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

One system of control I cannot 'get' is where everything is controlled from the same tablet - locos, routes, points, signals, etc. Not only is it wholly-unlike how a real railway is controlled (especially a steam-age one), but it seems to me to restrict the potential 'fun' part of the process of operating a model railway, especially with friends. On LB, some visitors are drivers, some operate the signals/points while one operates the rest of the ECML (the fiddle yard). That social interaction and huge operating fun is something I've missed more than anything else in recent times. For those who only operate their railway by themselves (which I never do, except for testing), I suppose the single tablet 'works', but a huge amount of social fun is lost to them, in my opinion (not that Covid has allowed much social fun of late!). 

 

I don't have my own layout, but I can see the appeal of having one device that you can use for the entire layout - especially as you mention, for those who operate alone. I  don't really have any/many similarly afflicted 'railway friends' (although that is changing, but even then; most aren't in the same country as me) that I could enjoy an operating session with. The idea of 'displaying' my layout to friends and family, and being able to sit in one spot and do everything, instead of running around like a headless chicken, is also both appealing, and more likely. 

[D-A-T]

I hope no one minds if I post this on here. I admit to not having read this thread recently, so if it has already been posted I apologise. Also I have nothing to do with the fund apart from having made a modest contribution.

Seems a sad outcome for a significant figure of his day.

[robertcwp]

9 hours ago, Lemmy282 said:

In early DCC systems there was the option to operate a non chipped loco as address 0. This gave a slightly reduced voltage which didn't do as much damage to a normal motor, although I wouldn't recommend try a coreless motor on it. More modern systems don't have this facility. One problem with running a DCC chipped loco on DC is that it will never run as smoothly as on DCC because the chip needs about 4.5v before it wakes up, so they tend to start a bit like a startled rabbit! To get the most out of a DCC decoder it is best to disable the DC conversion facility.

Just to clear thing up, a DCC signal is not AC, it is a square wave DC signal, the information for the decoder is superimposed on this basic waveform.

My layout is DC and, apart from my grey/blue Blue Pullman, I have de-chipped any locos and units that came with chips as I agree that they run much more smoothly on DC without them.

[Chamby]

9 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

I don't have my own layout, but I can see the appeal of having one device that you can use for the entire layout - especially as you mention, for those who operate alone. I  don't really have any/many similarly afflicted 'railway friends' (although that is changing, but even then; most aren't in the same country as me) that I could enjoy an operating session with. The idea of 'displaying' my layout to friends and family, and being able to sit in one spot and do everything, instead of running around like a headless chicken, is also both appealing, and more likely. 

 

It very much depends upon which DCC control system you use.  Integrated display ones like the ESU ECoS control panel are fine, but most of the handset based systems that most DCC users prefer are a real pain to use in isolation.  Every command has to be dialled in separately with its own address, and on any layout larger than the most simple, it just becomes unworkable.  You spend all your time peering into the corners of your layout to see which way a point is set, switching between accessory and loco control, constantly punching in the different addresses and commands.  I use a separate control panel for accessories (point motors, signals etc) with a mimic track diagram and indicator panel so I can see exactly how every point and signal is set, at a glance.  It is easy to see, intuitive to use, and simple to operate.  

 

DCC is no different to analogue control in terms of what you need to set up visually, if you want ease of operation.  It is just so much simpler to wire in and install than analogue.  Imagine an analogue-like control panel, but with just two wires between it and the layout, all the switches and motors and indicator LED’s communicating digitally down the same 2 wires rather than each having their individual connections.

 

There was a stage in my own DCC layout construction when the track had all been laid but the control panel not yet built, where I was solely using the handset to operate everything.  Needless to say, the accessory control panel very quickly became an immediate next-build priority!

 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Chamby
Typo

[Tony Wright]

15 hours ago, Ray Flintoft said:

Good afternoon , Tony ,

   As usual I am miles behind on this thread but the firebox cladding was lined out by Darlington works . This appears to have been standard practise there& can also be seen on V.2's ,A.1s & A.2,s that were repaired & repainted  there during the mid 1960's .

    Regarding the cab roofs , all I can say is that in 1969 I was one of a group of teenagers cleaning & general labouring on " Blue Peter" in York shed & the cab roof was overall black . Yes , I was the one who had to clean it !

            Best Wishes ,

                             Ray .

Good morning Ray,

 

I seem to recall the way to tell the difference between a Doncaster-shopped V2 and a Darlington one was that the latter lined the firebox cladding band. 

 

Didn't a couple of A4s end up shopped at Inverurie? Or other Pacifics towards the end? Was it an Inverurie style to line the 'boxes? Certainly, when I photographed BLUE PETER at Chester, on a railtour (which she didn't do very well on) in 1966, her firebox band was lined. 

 

I think, right at the end, it might well have been applied at the depots.

 

An interesting piece of livery history.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

I don't have my own layout, but I can see the appeal of having one device that you can use for the entire layout - especially as you mention, for those who operate alone. I  don't really have any/many similarly afflicted 'railway friends' (although that is changing, but even then; most aren't in the same country as me) that I could enjoy an operating session with. The idea of 'displaying' my layout to friends and family, and being able to sit in one spot and do everything, instead of running around like a headless chicken, is also both appealing, and more likely. 

Good morning Jack,

 

Or evening, I imagine, where you are. 

 

I like your description about a headless chicken, though I beg to disagree. From what I've seen, those who operate everything on their layout from one tablet are more likely to appear 'headless' when things go 'wrong'. 

 

I'll explain if I may? I've seen DCC locos suddenly take it into their 'heads' to move, and, despite the frazzled operator pressing every conceivable button, the locos carry on regardless. They've not been 'called-up', but they just go off at top speed. Were the roads they're 'illegally' running on controlled by a 'signal box' of some description, then sections could be isolated and the runaway stopped. 

 

Or, as Chamby (Phil) has not long ago posted, chaos can ensue if one forgets which address one is trying to access - is it a signal, is it a point, is it a macro or is it a loco? All on the one tablet. Having tried (once) to operate such a system, my brain gave up. 

 

I believe some operate using mobile phones! I'm glad I'm not one of those....................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[St Enodoc]

7 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I've seen DCC locos suddenly take it into their 'heads' to move, and, despite the frazzled operator pressing every conceivable button, the locos carry on regardless. They've not been 'called-up', but they just go off at top speed.

There are two principal reasons for this:

 

1. The loco still has a suppression capacitor fitted between the brushes. These should be removed when fitting DCC chips (the chip contains all necessary suppression components within it).

2. The chip has DC capability enabled. Unless you really need to be able to run your DCC loco on a DC layout, disable this feature.

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

There are two principal reasons for this:

 

1. The loco still has a suppression capacitor fitted between the brushes. These should be removed when fitting DCC chips (the chip contains all necessary suppression components within it).

2. The chip has DC capability enabled. Unless you really need to be able to run your DCC loco on a DC layout, disable this feature.

Thanks John,

 

How simple (though I'll most likely forget what you've just told me).

 

Do those who install DCC decoders professionally do what you've suggested, especially the first point? I suppose it doesn't matter with regard to most kit-built locos because they're not usually fitted with a suppressor (the only thing I've ever fitted between the brushes is a fuse to protect a Portescap). 

 

I assume RTR locos come with a suppression capacitor fitted between the brushes? Yet, to install a chip isn't it called 'plug and play'? I don't recall the instructions (not that I read any, of course) telling of removing the suppressor as well. 

 

One thing I have found with some RTR locos where DCC is 'on-board', where I've tried to just test them on Little Bytham (plain DC) the DC capability has been disabled at source. Clever folk have switched it back on for me.

 

I've leaned a lot from your post - perhaps many DCC operators don't know about what you've written as well. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[gr.king]

11 hours ago, Lemmy282 said:

Maybe, but if running DCC sound equipped loco's it makes sense to have all the layout permanently live, as sound would be cut off when points were changed. On the real railway, you would be in a lot of trouble driving against an incorrectly set route, so in a way DCC places more importance in operating in a more prototypical manner.

 

Well it's true about the sound, but that brings us back to a contentious point. While some "must" have the novelty of having various (many, or indeed all) locos simmering, clanking, blowing off, emitting shovelling sounds, testing brakes, rumbling, droning and hooting, even when they are doing nothing in a physical sense, others find it excessive, distracting and even incredibly annoying and uncomfortable to have multiple (or any) synthetic sounds from a layout, especially when the owner-operator at show is obsessed with sound and insists on turning it all up so that it dominates despite the general "hum" of the rest of the show. Restriction of sound production, if you must have it, to the locos that are actually working doesn't seem like a bad idea, so that their sounds are not competing with non-essential background noise and do not therefore need to be loud in order to be clearly audible.

 

Everything louder than everything else?

 

 

[LNER4479]

8 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

One thing I have found with some RTR locos where DCC is 'on-board', where I've tried to just test them on Little Bytham (plain DC) the DC capability has been disabled at source. Clever folk have switched it back on for me.

Do you need a DCC controller to do that? I have just such a loco with me here at the moment, which I was hoping to test out but it's just 'dead' when placed on my DC (Duette Control) tracks (other such locos have worked satisfactorily in similar circumstances). I've taken the top off the thing to reveal the innards and chips and masses of very thin wires ... but no obvious switch that says 'DC operation' (that's obviously way too simple). I don't want to fiddle with it any more as it's 'as new' in its box.

[Chas Levin]

On 31/01/2021 at 10:06, Tony Wright said:

 

 

Brinklow.

What very natural looking landscaping!

[Barry Ten]

11 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Do you need a DCC controller to do that? I have just such a loco with me here at the moment, which I was hoping to test out but it's just 'dead' when placed on my DC (Duette Control) tracks (other such locos have worked satisfactorily in similar circumstances). I've taken the top off the thing to reveal the innards and chips and masses of very thin wires ... but no obvious switch that says 'DC operation' (that's obviously way too simple). I don't want to fiddle with it any more as it's 'as new' in its box.

 

Yes, it's controllable via CV#29.

 

http://www.2mm.org.uk/articles/cv29 calculator.htm

 

Tick or untick the boxes you want, and the calculator gives the value to put into CV#29.

 

It's very handy for reversing the direction of a loco if you've wired it up wrongly.

[Chamby]

17 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

Well it's true about the sound, but that brings us back to a contentious point. While some "must" have the novelty of having various (many, or indeed all) locos simmering, clanking, blowing off, emitting shovelling sounds, testing brakes, rumbling, droning and hooting, even when they are doing nothing in a physical sense, others find it excessive, distracting and even incredibly annoying and uncomfortable to have multiple (or any) synthetic sounds from a layout, especially when the owner-operator at show is obsessed with sound and insists on turning it all up so that it dominates despite the general "hum" of the rest of the show. Restriction of sound production, if you must have it, to the locos that are actually working doesn't seem like a bad idea, so that their sounds are not competing with non-essential background noise and do not therefore need to be loud in order to be clearly audible.

 

Everything louder than everything else?

 

 

 

Having worked as a volunteer at a day centre for children with special needs, I couldn’t agree more.  Many children (and adults) with autism develop a fascination for railways, which is why you will often find them attending clubs and shows within our hobby.  Yet these same folks are often hypersensitive to excessive sound and other stimuli, some to the point of having to wear sound cancelling headphones when out and about in public.

 

So some layout owners fascination with loud sound presents a real problem for others, causing genuine distress.  I have absolutely no qualms about reminding exhibition layout operators of this fact if it becomes necessary.

[LNER4479]

8 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

Yes, it's controllable via CV#29.

 

http://www.2mm.org.uk/articles/cv29 calculator.htm

 

Tick or untick the boxes you want, and the calculator gives the value to put into CV#29.

 

It's very handy for reversing the direction of a loco if you've wired it up wrongly.

Thanks - but how do I do that with a H&M Duette?

Edited February 2, 2021 by LNER4479