Wright writes.....

[Jesse Sim]

55 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Jack,

 

Or evening, I imagine, where you are. 

 

I like your description about a headless chicken, though I beg to disagree. From what I've seen, those who operate everything on their layout from one tablet are more likely to appear 'headless' when things go 'wrong'. 

 

I'll explain if I may? I've seen DCC locos suddenly take it into their 'heads' to move, and, despite the frazzled operator pressing every conceivable button, the locos carry on regardless. They've not been 'called-up', but they just go off at top speed. Were the roads they're 'illegally' running on controlled by a 'signal box' of some description, then sections could be isolated and the runaway stopped. 

 

Or, as Chamby (Phil) has not long ago posted, chaos can ensue if one forgets which address one is trying to access - is it a signal, is it a point, is it a macro or is it a loco? All on the one tablet. Having tried (once) to operate such a system, my brain gave up. 

 

I believe some operate using mobile phones! I'm glad I'm not one of those....................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

As I am DCC man from day dot my layouts actually really DC. The only DCC is the track for the trains to run on, the points and eventually the signalling will be analog. I move around the control board switching the points for the appropriate train to run while someone else can operate a train. I would like to eventually go to wireless NCE controllers like John has on Mid Cornwall lines, So I can sit on the far side. 

I agree that some people who have everything in one device get flustered when something goes wrong, technology can be your friend and enemy at the same time if not tech savvy.

I like running my model almost like the real thing, punching in the number on the cab side feels like climbing onto the footplate, then I switch the points like the signal man should and off I go to an almost certain derailment to which I swear and curse and then go have a cigarette. It’s all part of the plan! Model railways are fun, model railways are fun.... 

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks - but how do I do that with a H&M Duette?

You don't.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Chamby said:

DCC is no different to analogue control in terms of what you need to set up visually, if you want ease of operation.  It is just so much simpler to wire in and install than analogue.  Imagine an analogue-like control panel, but with just two wires between it and the layout, all the switches and motors and indicator LED’s communicating digitally down the same 2 wires rather than each having their individual connections.

 

Swings and roundabouts..... having only two wires means you have no sections.  This is fine when you just want to control locos, but as others have said, without being able to isolate areas, fault-finding becomes incredibly difficult.  To me, it would be like having your whole house wired on a single ring main where you had to switch everything off to just change a light bulb.

 

I would never tell anyone else how to build their railway; if you want to operate multiple locos at once, DCC is the obvious way to go.  But like a lot of things, it is sold almost as a "must have", even for a newcomer's 6'x4' roundy-roundy, who will be able to exploit about 2% of the functionality.

[LNER4479]

"You don't"

That's what I thought but it was worth a shout.

 

Is DC gradually being killed off using the 'death by a thousand cuts' principle?

Edited February 2, 2021 by LNER4479

[Chamby]

4 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks - but how do I do that with a H&M Duette?

 

You have two options, firstly find a mate who has a dcc controller, or 

you can simply unplug the chip and fit a ‘blanking plug’ instead.  

 

“DCC ready” RTR products come with a blanking plug already fitted, that you remove when plugging in the chip.  I have a box full of them!  You often find that a dcc fitted product has a blanking plug in the little plastic bag of bits.  There are different kinds though, the most common being either 8-pin or 21-pin.

[3rd Rail Exile]

8 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

You don't.

 

5 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

That's what I thought but it was worth a shout.

 

Is DC gradually being killed off using the 'death by a thousand cuts' principle?

It was pointed out to me on another thread (the Hornby Nelsons, I think) that locos supplied factory-fitted with chips have the "run on DC" CV turned off to improve DCC running.  If you want to run it on DC you have to purchase and fit the appropriate blanking plug in place of the chip.  

 

I was asked why I wanted to do such a thing, but pointed out that sometimes a manufacturer only releases the particular name/number/livery combination I want in DCC-fitted form... 

 

So to answer your question in your final line, pretty much yes!  It's certainly becoming trickier...

Edited February 2, 2021 by 3rd Rail Exile

[Barry Ten]

Just now, LNER4479 said:

That's what I thought but it was worth a shout.

 

Is DC gradually being killed off using the 'death by a thousand cuts' principle?

 

I don;t think so - at least not in the UK. I reckon DC will be around for quite a long time.

 

Even in the States, there are some products coming out which make DC more attractive to the app/smartphone generation. There are also some hybrid controllers which seem to be able to control sound features in DC, so modellers can get the best of both worlds

without jumping in to full DCC.

 

I'd suggest it's a similar picture in slot car circles, too. Scalextric brought out a DCC-like digital system about 10 years ago, but that's now evolved to a fully wireless, app-controlled system which works well on DC as well.

 

Al

[Chas Levin]

On 01/02/2021 at 09:29, Tony Wright said:

One job which just-ex-works locos used to be employed on was the local pick-up (though I never try it on LB). The locos would range from anything from an 0-6-0 (most-appropriate) to a Pacific. One day it was a gleaming MALLARD  which was tasked with trundling between Peterborough and Grantham, picking-up and dropping-off at the various places between...

Good morning Tony, what was the thinking behind using just-ex-works for this purpose? Was it to allow them some gentler running-in time, before they went back to their usual - possibly very heavy - duties?

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

"You don't"

That's what I thought but it was worth a shout.

 

Is DC gradually being killed off using the 'death by a thousand cuts' principle?

I don't think so, Graham. My prediction is that two-rail pickup, whether DC or DCC, will sooner or later be superseded by so-called "dead rail" systems, using on-board power (batteries) and some form of wireless control.

 

In the meantime, both DC and DCC will continue side-by-side (it's that song again). After all, we don't see many, if any, items being marketed as "DCC only" (go on, you lot, prove me wrong on that!).

[MJI]

36 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks - but how do I do that with a H&M Duette?

 

A Duette?

 

Should be using Powermasters.

[LNER4479]

29 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I don't think so, Graham. My prediction is that two-rail pickup, whether DC or DCC, will sooner or later be superseded by so-called "dead rail" systems, using on-board power (batteries) and some form of wireless control.

Presumably that would involve some form of induction charging arrangement so that locos are automatically kept charged up whilst on the layout (I think that's how the marvellous road vehicles are kept powered up at Hamburg's MiniaturWunderland?).

 

I can't see Tony plugging his 276 locos into a battery charging socket each night!

[PMP]

On 01/02/2021 at 09:01, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Rob,

. To make matters worse, the sun was streaming in, so I was faced with worst of both worlds; blinding light on top, and Stygian gloom beneath the layout drapes.

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

That’s why I paint the underside of my boards white....

[LNER4479]

11 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

A Duette?

 

Should be using Powermasters.

That sounds like a very interesting recommendation, I shall have to check that out. Meanwhile, my Duettes and Clippers will have to suffice ...

 

[Barry Ten]

Anyone up for a cautionary tale of the danger of erroneous assumptions?

 

 

The point on the right of the shot, just ahead of the blue and grey diesel, was installed in 2017. Like all the points on my N layout, it's fitted with a Peco solenoid and a microswitch  for frog polarity. Because of the way the layout's designed, once these points are laid down, there's no easy way of getting at any of the electrical gubbins. Initially I had some concerns about the reliability of the micro-switch over time, but in fact the oldest of these points has now been in place and working for more than 12 years, without any problems. There are about 40 of them on the scenic part of the layout and they've all been fine.

 

Until this one.

 

A few months ago I noticed that it was causing a short when set for the siding - the one that ends with the thumb-tack as a temporary safety measure. I checked the wiring that I could access, but I couldn't see anything amiss. So after living with the fault for a while (it was no problem as long as I didn't select that rarely-used siding) i eventually decided to lift the point and repair whatever had gone with it. My expectation was that the micro-switch might have shifted, or wasn't switching properly. 

 

To get at it, I had to rip away a few square inches of scenery to one side of the point, as well as lifting ballast, cutting track and unsoldering rail joints - never fun.

 

I then spent a nearly fruitless weekend being unable to trace the fault. The point worked fine in isolation, and the micro-switch was proven to be still functioning as it should. But every time I put it back into position, and closed up the rail joiners, the fault returned.

 

The point was tested and proven to be 100% reliable when originally put in, so what could be going on? I must admit it had me stumped and exasperated. Then I had that nasty feeling that not only had I been barking up completely the wrong tree, but I needn't have pulled the point up at all.

 

I remembered - belatedly - that early in lockdown I'd done work to the *next* point along the branch, a good four feet from this one. What it seems I did is to add a separate track feed to that point, forgetting that it was in fact fed by the one seemingly causing the trouble. In other words, I'd set myself up for a classic electrofrog short circuit, but one that only showed up when the first point was switched to the branch! What a plonker. I'd have probably twigged it sooner, but as mentioned, I rarely need to use that short siding so  when the fault showed up, I didn't connect it to the work done earlier.

 

The solution was to add one insulated rail joiner to the heel of the troublesome point, but it could just have easily have been achieved by adding a rail break with no need to lift the point at all.

 

Trying to make a positive out of a negative, I've made some nice rock castings to replace the scenery I tore up, so hopefully it should look a bit better than it did...

 

Al

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Barry Ten]

59 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I don't think so, Graham. My prediction is that two-rail pickup, whether DC or DCC, will sooner or later be superseded by so-called "dead rail" systems, using on-board power (batteries) and some form of wireless control.

 

In the meantime, both DC and DCC will continue side-by-side (it's that song again). After all, we don't see many, if any, items being marketed as "DCC only" (go on, you lot, prove me wrong on that!).

 

I must admit that, after spending a few months playing with radio control aircraft, I'm absolutely convinced that on-board power is the way of the future.

[LNER4479]

Hello Tony,

 

Knowing how much you like to know how locos supplied by 'Honest Tone' are getting on, here's Central station's pilot loco getting stuck into a first serious spot of shunting:

 

All I've done is to replace the pony truck wheels with Gibsons of the correct type and fit a coupling bar on the back. As well as improve the visual appearance, the new wheels have cured a momentary shorting problem that was occurring on the tighter radii in the station area (the new wheels are slighter shorter diameter and shallower flanges). Runs lovely now.

 

Before you say it - yes, I need to find a white and red lamp for the front end to display the correct pilot headcode

 

[jollysmart]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

I don't think so, Graham. My prediction is that two-rail pickup, whether DC or DCC, will sooner or later be superseded by so-called "dead rail" systems, using on-board power (batteries) and some form of wireless control.

 

 

 

You mean like clockwork?

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Do you need a DCC controller to do that? I have just such a loco with me here at the moment, which I was hoping to test out but it's just 'dead' when placed on my DC (Duette Control) tracks (other such locos have worked satisfactorily in similar circumstances). I've taken the top off the thing to reveal the innards and chips and masses of very thin wires ... but no obvious switch that says 'DC operation' (that's obviously way too simple). I don't want to fiddle with it any more as it's 'as new' in its box.

I think others will have answered your question far better than I can fumble through, Graham.

 

Jeremy at Digitrains and Kevin at Coastal have done it for me at shows (what are those? The shows I mean, not the two friends). They just put the loco on a piece of track, configure something on a laptop as I look on in awe!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Chuffer Davies]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

You don't.

Perhaps:

If it has a DCC socket unplug the chip and plug in a blanking plug?  You may be able to find one in a DCC ready loco that doesn’t have a chip fitted.

Frank

[Clive Mortimore]

As a die hard DC modeller who enjoys wiring layouts I like these DC vs DCC discussions. before I get to why I am a Dc modeller not a DCC one here is something to think about.

 

On the real railway the signalman/woman checks the line is clear, sets the route and then shows the driver it is OK to proceed by changing the signal to go. The driver then releases brakes and pulls on some sort of handle and off the train goes. 

 

On a DC powered trainset the operator (or in some cases the signalman/woman) checks the line is clear, sets the route and might have to switch the power sections on, if the layout has working signals sets them to go. Then normally the same person (sometimes a driver) twist a knob or slides a slidey thing and off goes the train.

 

On a DCC powered model railway the operator (or in some cases the signalman/woman) checks the line is clear, sets the route, if the layout has working signals sets them to go. Normally the same person (sometimes a driver) presses some buttons, depending on the set up all sorts of noises, flashing lights and some cases the brakes come off, then the operator twist a knob or slides a slidey thing and off goes the train.

 

Neither are that much different to how a real railway operates. So why am I so deeply routed in DC. It is cheaper to achieve the same thing as I want to do. My opinion. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[grahame]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

My prediction is that two-rail pickup, whether DC or DCC, will sooner or later be superseded by so-called "dead rail" systems, using on-board power (batteries) and some form of wireless control.

 

 

Models carrying around batteries is a bit like going back in time with old fashioned locos lugging their fuel about in the form of coal and constantly needing to re-fuel. Hopefully the future will be 'broadcast power'.

;-)

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Good morning Tony, what was the thinking behind using just-ex-works for this purpose? Was it to allow them some gentler running-in time, before they went back to their usual - possibly very heavy - duties?

It was Chas,

 

From what I can tell, Donny Plant used to release locos after shopping to Carr Loco (36A). Now, despite it's 'A' status, Doncaster shed had little top link work compared with , say, Top Shed, Grantham or Copley Hill. It did have several Pacifics on its books, but often one would act as pilot/standby at Doncaster Station in case of failure. 

 

What it would do is run-in freshly-shopped locos, either light engine as far as the Barkston triangle (just north of Grantham) where they could be turned and returned. Or, the gleaming locos would be allocated menial tasks such as pick-ups or local duties. It was only after they'd been run-in without problems that they'd be returned to their home sheds, often a great distance away. The final job was often a secondary express or fast freight job, giving southerners the great sight of a rare loco (say from Carlisle Canal or Haymarket) running along their patch. 

 

 

Though I've probably shown this picture before (but scores of pages back!), it features no less than MALLARD about to be turned on the Barkston triangle after being shopped. Carr Loco must have been among the first depots to use a high-vis lamp. 

 

 

TRIMBUSH from far-away Edinburgh (Haymarket) heads a northbound (very much) secondary 'express' at Grantham in 1960. It's in reverse, so might just be coupling up to the rake. I imagine the service is a Grantham-Doncaster all stations stopper. 

 

 

I even indulge in running-in 'unlikely' locos on Little Bytham. Ex-works TUDOR MINSTREL (DJH/Wright/Rathbone) from as far away as Dundee leaves Little Bytham on a Peterborough-Grantham 'parly'. 

 

Brand new locos would also have been run-in on menial duties. I have a picture of a brand new Doncaster-built 76XXX 2-6-0 shunting at Corby Glen.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

That sounds like a very interesting recommendation, I shall have to check that out. Meanwhile, my Duettes and Clippers will have to suffice ...

 

Despite all the advances made in controllers over the last 60-odd years, I'll bet H&Ms still power more layouts than any others. 

 

Bytham's GN fiddle yard uses a 'Duette' and the whole of the MR/M&GNR system uses a 'Clipper'. 

 

Both my test facilities use another 'Duette' and another 'Clipper', and I've still got a spare more of each! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Hello Tony,

 

Knowing how much you like to know how locos supplied by 'Honest Tone' are getting on, here's Central station's pilot loco getting stuck into a first serious spot of shunting:

 

All I've done is to replace the pony truck wheels with Gibsons of the correct type and fit a coupling bar on the back. As well as improve the visual appearance, the new wheels have cured a momentary shorting problem that was occurring on the tighter radii in the station area (the new wheels are slighter shorter diameter and shallower flanges). Runs lovely now.

 

Before you say it - yes, I need to find a white and red lamp for the front end to display the correct pilot headcode

 

Thanks Graham,

 

I'm delighted, though its good running is as much due to the late Mr. Swain's original workmanship as my putting in a DJH motor/gerbox combo, replacing the smoke- and noise-generating K's Mk.1. It still has its K's drivers! 

 

I had contemplated replacing the ghastly recessed-spoked pony wheels, but it didn't short out on Little Bytham. 

 

Anyway, it's made a modest donation to CRUK.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[Adam88]

12 hours ago, D-A-T said:

I hope no one minds if I post this on here. I admit to not having read this thread recently, so if it has already been posted I apologise. Also I have nothing to do with the fund apart from having made a modest contribution.

Seems a sad outcome for a significant figure of his day.

 

While we are talking about Joe Duddington, does anyone know whether he is related to G Duddington who is commemorated on the GNR war memorial at King's Cross?  The reason I ask is that although Duddington sounds like a typical English surname I think it is actually quite rare.  In all my life I have never knowingly known or met anyone with this name.   I would surmise that the name on the war memorial is that of a close relative of Joe Duddington.  It was common for brothers, cousins, etc to work for the same company, in this case the GNR.  Looking at the CWGC web site there are but three Duddington deaths from the Great War, one of whom is G Duddington and another G E Duddington.  No background information is recorded for these two - often there is age and home location information.   The two Duddingtons named from the second world war could be from the next generation being born in 1908 and 1910 although neither was the son of Joe or George one was from Doncaster.  From the above appeal I assume that Joe Duddington himself lived in Doncaster, at least at the time of his death.

 

Perhaps someone in the GNR society might have investigated?