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2 hours ago, john new said:

I like Tony’s list above. Potential worries for the future though also include (A) the current lack of a good grounding in basic craft skills at school and (B) the latest iteration of tension lock couplings.

 

I cite these from personal situations. Re (A) my daughter is struggling with basic electric wiring for my train mad grandson’s train set. Too far distant for me to go and do it for her even without COVID rules but the type of basic circuitry needed for DC was ingrained in my generation when we were still just young boys along with other craft skills. Maybe I was lucky that I had relatives into such things to.

 

Re (B) I have been using some r-t-r stock on a shunting plank lately and the new thin spike t/ls are beeping useless on 2nd radius. Many on here would not go near either that track or those couplings BUT my point is they are being sold to beginners, who do use them, but because they are so unreliable they will become disillusioned with the hobby and never progress to the delights of 3ft+ radius curves etc.. This is not something I have seen magazine reviewers criticise, namely that despite being sold as suitable for 2nd radius curves the items cannot couple  on such a tight radius and hook swing derails the vehicle even if they’ve been coupled on a straight.

 

Older models may have been built more crudely as regards standards but they worked at entry level, got a newbie interested, and encouraged progression to better standards in due course. Space, currently, precludes me using the larger radius curves I desire unless I drop to 2mm. I’ve compromised and dabble with what I’ve got.
 

I have posted this in the hope that as a BRM reviewer it is something Tony might mention in future reviews - what is the minimum radius curve an item of rolling stock can go round and stay coupled with the fittings as supplied.

 

Good point John,

 

Not having any curves under 3' radius (on the main line of LB), I go by what the manufacturers suggest as to a recommended minimum radius. Perhaps I should try any new stock on the MR/M&GNR, which has a minimum of 2' radius (though that's more-generous than some Settrack curves). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good point John,

 

Not having any curves under 3' radius (on the main line of LB), I go by what the manufacturers suggest as to a recommended minimum radius. Perhaps I should try any new stock on the MR/M&GNR, which has a minimum of 2' radius (though that's more-generous than some Settrack curves). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony.

 

From my personal testing 2ft seems to be roughly where the new spike style t/ls begin to work. The older, wider looped, type are fine the problem is that the loop part on the new style is too small/narrow to allow for the swing of the opposite vehicle’s hook! I also think they are more, not less, intrusive too but that is subjective.

 

What brought it to a head for me was the Bachman Whiskey set, the couplings as supplied with it on the grain wagons fail the radius test.

 

Edited by john new
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6 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Graeme

 

It is interesting who and why they model the period they do. I know many members of DEMU who model very modern railways and despite being older than me and trainspotting and/or traveling behind steam have no interest in steam. Conversely there are many modellers who are younger than me who model more historical railways. I fall into that group who model what they saw as a kid, stuff from before I was a trainspotter.

 

Who are we to say what someone should be modelling, and how they enjoy their model railways. The guy who buys a red engine this month because last month he bought a blue one is as much a railway modeller as the bloke who winds his own motors and turns his own wheels if both are enjoying what they do. It is a hobby for enjoyment after all.

Good afternoon Clive,

 

'Who are we to say what someone should be modelling, and how they enjoy their model railways.'

 

Despite what you appear to think, I don't think anyone on here has ever suggested that anyone is doing wrong (or right?) by following what they enjoy in railway modelling. 

 

I know I do what I like, and, if it appeals to/helps/encourages/(inspires?)/motivates/annoys/sickens/puts off others, then so be it.

 

I've had a group of four chaps visit today. Two are railway modellers and two are not; yet, I was astonished at how much interest the two non-railway modellers showed in Little Bytham and how it ran. At no point did I suggest to the railway modelling pair how they should conduct their hobby. I merely pointed out how I did. 

 

We chatted about our different interests - one of the modellers is interested in WR OO steam/diesel transition and the other in more up-to-date N Gauge. Both are recreating memories from their youth. My interests could be listed as............... irrespective of scale/period..................

 

1. A desire to always model a prototype.

 

2. To work in a like-minded team.

 

3. To always (and mean ALWAYS) ensure things run 'perfectly'. To that end, I must build the locos myself. 

 

4. To chat to and to learn from folk who've made things themselves. Though I do employ some items, I'm not a great user of RTR (no matter how good it currently is - I'm still debating with myself as to whether or not to keep EARL MARISCHAL). No matter how 'inferior' a hand-built equivalent might be, I'm much more interested in it than I am in an RTR example of the same type. That's why I don't particularly converse with those whose modelling has been done for them by others. All they can tell me is who built this or that. It's all rather second-hand. 

 

5. To help others where I can, whatever their standards (though I doubt if I'd bother much with the guy/girl who bought his/her locos on the grounds of the colour of their paint!). 

 

There are, obviously, other areas of personal interest, but at no time do I attempt to dictate to others what they should be interested in. That's up to them...............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

More show and tell, seeing as how you (Tony) like to see folks making things - even if, in this case, it's a commission. More pics on the layout thread concerned:

 

DSC01290.JPG

 

DSC01295.JPG

 

As somebody who enjoys a good signal, those are very good signals!

 

What have you used to make the brackets? They look considerably finer than most of the commercial etches I have seen.

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6 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

What have you used to make the brackets? They look considerably finer than most of the commercial etches I have seen.

Thanks Tony.

 

I had the bracket etches made specially (Nick Easton did them for me to my drawing) as, in this instance, there was no etch of the right shape / style in the otherwise excellent MSE (Wizard) range.

 

If I'm honest, they proved just a little TOO fine and they suffered a couple of minor distortions during manufacture (more or less straightened out). Nick did them as full etch for the outer spars but the intermediate bars are half etch only which is what's giving it its 'fine' look. I actually soldered on an additional piece of brass strip on to the bottom, curved spar to reinforce it all.

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4 hours ago, Clem said:

As promised, here is K3 61833 on her first public run on a down Burton goods whilst J39/1 crosses on an up Burton.

 

 

 

As always your loco’s run as smooth as silk.  Impressive..  

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2 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

As always your loco’s run as smooth as silk.  Impressive..  

Good evening Frank. Thanks for the kind comments. To be honest,  I feel like a bit of a fraud. I really can't take credit for Chris Gibbon's High Level gearboxes and the smooth running of Mr. Mashima's motors, not to mention Stewart Hine's Pentrollers. But I suppose you work with what you learn to trust and a few years ago I set my stall out on that combination.

 

Are the club rooms open at Shipey MRS yet? If so how are the Clayton and Leicester SG gangs?

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Despite what you appear to think, I don't think anyone on here has ever suggested that anyone is doing wrong (or right?) by following what they enjoy in railway modelling. 

 

I think the following quote from earlier on this thread absolutely does that:

"I'm afraid that I tend to regard "modelling" that relies largely on RTR blue boxes-on-wheels with noise-making devices, running on non-scale track, as being about as mature /sensible /serious for an older person as for instance the the purchase of a car with huge wheel arch extensions, go-faster stripes, whale-tail spoiler and annoyingly loud exhaust".

 

FWIW, I don't like DCC sound either, but I don't think its adherents have something wrong with them.

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28 minutes ago, Clem said:

Good evening Frank. Thanks for the kind comments. To be honest,  I feel like a bit of a fraud. I really can't take credit for Chris Gibbon's High Level gearboxes and the smooth running of Mr. Mashima's motors, not to mention Stewart Hine's Pentrollers. But I suppose you work with what you learn to trust and a few years ago I set my stall out on that combination.

 

Are the club rooms open at Shipey MRS yet? If so how are the Clayton and Leicester SG gangs?

Hi Clem,

I agree with regards your motor and gearbox combination but it’s setting up the hornguides to match the coupling rods accurately which ultimately determines whether the chassis limps or glides along the track.  You appear to be a passed master at setting them up.

 

I got back into the club rooms yesterday for the first time in 62 weeks, it all felt a bit of a time warp. Everything was just where it had been left last time we worked on the layout albeit now under an amount of dust.  So yesterday I spent most of the day having a clean around and reminding myself where I’d got up to with testing the wiring.

As to LSGC it shares  the same floor space in the club room as Clayton so is currently stored along with Hungerford in a side room.  
I hope the council won’t feel the need to shut the building again now that this blessed Indian variant is starting to take hold on Bradford.  

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22 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I think the following quote from earlier on this thread absolutely does that:

"I'm afraid that I tend to regard "modelling" that relies largely on RTR blue boxes-on-wheels with noise-making devices, running on non-scale track, as being about as mature /sensible /serious for an older person as for instance the the purchase of a car with huge wheel arch extensions, go-faster stripes, whale-tail spoiler and annoyingly loud exhaust".

 

FWIW, I don't like DCC sound either, but I don't think its adherents have something wrong with them.

But, is Graeme actually suggesting that folk don't do that? Perhaps? 

 

He's expressing his (usually-strident) opinions; the sort of stuff which makes this thread (also perhaps?) contentious at times, but also much-read and very-popular. 

 

I, too, don't have much time for RTR diesels (blue, or otherwise) - Clive Mortimer's are far more-interesting.

 

However, all OO trackwork is non-scale, so there's a bit of dual standards there. 

 

I must admit to once owning a car with an 'annoyingly loud exhaust' (my current one is pretty throaty!), but it didn't have any of the other appurtenances mentioned. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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4 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

More show and tell, seeing as how you (Tony) like to see folks making things - even if, in this case, it's a commission. More pics on the layout thread concerned:

 

DSC01290.JPG

 

DSC01295.JPG

Lovely work Graham,

 

I've also asked on the other thread, but how do you propose to mechanise them? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Posted (edited)

Era-wise, I consider that, whilst the BR steam-to-diesel transition period is likely to become less dominant, it will remain very popular whatever happens to the modelling demographic.

 

The clue is in the name; it's more interesting than late steam or early post-steam, simply because it includes both. Move on a few years into BR blue and you get much the same as early-post steam but, with increasing rationalisation of traction, rolling stock and infrastructure, it therefore becomes (at least potentially) less interesting once you strip out the nostalgia factor. Equally, if you want to model a purely steam era, that becomes considerably more varied if you move a bit earlier.

 

Taking my preferred BR(s) steam category, 1954 would be a very good pick, it was the last year the Devon Belle ran, and an awful lot of older steam loco classes were cleared out in 1955. Much of the more interesting surviving rolling stock from the pre-group era, (which would all disappear in the coming four or five years), was still in regular use, alongside BR standard locos etc. OK, it would rule out my favourites, the rebuilt Bulleids, and that's the main reason I haven't adopted it myself. However, I'm increasingly tempted to add earlier stuff to my current 1958-62 preferred timespan and just be careful what I mix....          

 

All periods are transitional to some degree, but the r-t-r makers/commissioners stand to make a better living from those where the degree and pace of transition is highest, and products can be sold to modellers of the before, during and after stages. Sales appeal of such models will often spread earlier and later still with detail and livery variations. It therefore constitutes a very strong commercial core. That has to be good for overall sales. 

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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10 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Who are we to say what someone should be modelling, and how they enjoy their model railways. The guy who buys a red engine this month because last month he bought a blue one is as much a railway modeller as the bloke who winds his own motors and turns his own wheels if both are enjoying what they do. It is a hobby for enjoyment after all.

 You're absolutely right Clive about people being free to model as they wish, and I would argue strongly that if they really want to model in a particular way and have a least a glimmer of potential then the support or facilities of a club are not absolutely essential, especially with so much access to information and to (now older) video taped, or disc recorded, or on-line demonstrations of techniques these days. For those reasons, and others, while I accept that clubs seemingly composed of "old mates only" with "steam only" modelling interests may have limited long term prospects, I think the members of those clubs have every right to carry on as they are, if that is their choice. If there was any intention in an earlier post (not one of mine) to imply that clubs have some sort of duty to cater for all, even if that means having to alter things that suit everybody else simply to accommodate a prospective new member, then I definitely disagree with "compulsory inclusiveness" in that form. Clubs are not permanent after all, they are not public statutory bodies, they are not monopolies, and if existing clubs don't appeal to some in the hobby then they can always form a new club - even a beginner could do so if he really wished. Alternatively, if no clubs appeal, then as I said at the start one can always model solo. I don't think newcomers with blue-diesel interests are by any means shut out of the hobby as a whole anyway, in fact I think there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, with dedicated organizations for "modern image" or diesel/electric interests ONLY, and various dedicated shows too.

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Lovely work Graham,

 

I've also asked on the other thread, but how do you propose to mechanise them? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I've replied on the other thread Tony but - simply put - all signals already have mechanisms installed (DCC-controlled Tortoises) so it's just a case of connecting up to those.

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Posted (edited)

I think it's always been the case that folks either model the contemporary scene or the one they remember when they were younger (ie something they can directly relate to)  OR they model something based on a (completely) different era that happens to appeal to them. If it were possible, it would be interesting to survey the relative percentage of each. Clearly, as time marches relentlessly on, eventually anyone modelling the steam era, whether that be BR1948-1968, Big Four 1923-1948 or pre-grouping 1922 and earlier, will by definition NOT be modelling what they remember.

 

I count myself as already being in the latter demographic. I was four when steam ended and have just the vaguest memories of going out with Dad to see the last leaky 8Fs in the northwest of England. The time that should have made the greatest impression on me therefore is the late 1970s / early 1980s - however, it has absolutely no appeal at all to me from a modelling point of view! It doesn't too much study of pre-1968 pictures of the same scene in the 1980s to see which was the more interesting so I shall always be a pre-1968 modeller, primarily LMR 1950s although I have equally enjoyed my prolonged dalliance with LNER 1930s.

 

Will I be in the minority in 20 years time (if I'm fortunate to still be active by that date!)? Dunno. Do I care? Not really - I'm quite happy doing my 'thing', just as much as others are doing theirs.

Edited by LNER4479
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1 hour ago, Chuffer Davies said:

I got back into the club rooms yesterday for the first time in 62 weeks, it all felt a bit of a time warp. Everything was just where it had been left last time we worked on the layout albeit now under an amount of dust.  So yesterday I spent most of the day having a clean around and reminding myself where I’d got up to with testing the wiring.

As to LSGC it shares  the same floor space in the club room as Clayton so is currently stored along with Hungerford in a side room.  
I hope the council won’t feel the need to shut the building again now that this blessed Indian variant is starting to take hold on Bradford.  

Ah, it's so good that you are back into the clubroom. Are you making progress on the J2 at the moment?  This Indian variant is a bit of cause for concern, isn't it. It's a conundrum as at some stage I fear we'll all just have to go with the idea that the virus is here for good and return to a half-way house to normality whilst being on the alert for new variants. I understand there's also another new one, the Egyptian variant. The only thing we can do is get on with it at the moment and hope for the best.

 

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56 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 You're absolutely right Clive about people being free to model as they wish, and I would argue strongly that if they really want to model in a particular way and have a least a glimmer of potential then the support or facilities of a club are not absolutely essential, especially with so much access to information and to (now older) video taped, or disc recorded, or on-line demonstrations of techniques these days. For those reasons, and others, while I accept that clubs seemingly composed of "old mates only" with "steam only" modelling interests may have limited long term prospects, I think the members of those clubs have every right to carry on as they are, if that is their choice. If there was any intention in an earlier post (not one of mine) to imply that clubs have some sort of duty to cater for all, even if that means having to alter things that suit everybody else simply to accommodate a prospective new member, then I definitely disagree with "compulsory inclusiveness" in that form. Clubs are not permanent after all, they are not public statutory bodies, they are not monopolies, and if existing clubs don't appeal to some in the hobby then they can always form a new club - even a beginner could do so if he really wished. Alternatively, if no clubs appeal, then as I said at the start one can always model solo. I don't think newcomers with blue-diesel interests are by any means shut out of the hobby as a whole anyway, in fact I think there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, with dedicated organizations for "modern image" or diesel/electric interests ONLY, and various dedicated shows too.

Hi Graeme

 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

I agree clubs are not always inclusive or need to be.  For many years the Witham club was not actively seeking new members, we were a small group who met on a Monday night, moaned about what was on the TV, politics, our other halves, talked trains, moaned about our other halves, and had a cup of tea. Most Mondays someone brought along their new toy (be it RTR, kit or scratch) and gave it a run. We were happy with that. An excellent group of friends. 

 

I have attended other clubs and did not feel I fitted in, thankfully I have landed on my feet with the Lincoln club. It is totally different to the Witham club but are a good bunch of geezers. 

 

You mention "modern image" clubs, it would be amiss of me as an active member of DEMU not to promote the society. https://www.demu.org.uk/

 

Blue diesel modellers are considered historic these days. :secret:

 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Clem said:

Ah, it's so good that you are back into the clubroom. Are you making progress on the J2 at the moment?  

 

The J2's CAD file is with PPD and I expect the version 1 metal back with me any day now. ;-)  Meanwhile that nice Mr Redrup has provided me with all the necessary castings and a tender to complete the build -  if I've got the design correct that is? 

 

I have also prepared artwork for a J52, one of those built by Neilson & Co with wooden buffer beam extensions front and back and leaf springs above the wheels rather than the usual underslung springs.  In researching I discovered that the J52's frames were identical to those designed by Stirling for the J7 which I've previously modelled.  I have been able to reuse a considerable amount of the J7's artwork saving me significant time and effort. It would appear that the GW were not unique in exploiting standardisation. 

 

The artwork for the J52 is three weeks behind that of the J2 and so it will be a while before I can expect the metal back from PPD.

 

I think I've got enough to keep me going for a while yet.

 

Frank

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks Tony.

 

I had the bracket etches made specially (Nick Easton did them for me to my drawing) as, in this instance, there was no etch of the right shape / style in the otherwise excellent MSE (Wizard) range.

 

If I'm honest, they proved just a little TOO fine and they suffered a couple of minor distortions during manufacture (more or less straightened out). Nick did them as full etch for the outer spars but the intermediate bars are half etch only which is what's giving it its 'fine' look. I actually soldered on an additional piece of brass strip on to the bottom, curved spar to reinforce it all.

 

It is one of those things that crops up from time to time in modelling where there is a balance to be struck between "dead to scale" and "practical".

 

I did once make a lattice bracket by cutting the "inner" shape out of two sheets of brass soldered together, soldering lots of fine brass strips, possibly half etched boiler band material to make up the lattice and then cutting the outer shape to create a bracket that was not available as an etch.

 

Getting the strips aligned accurately enough to make two identical wasn't easy and it wasn't something I would fancy doing too often.

 

Having a tame artwork creator for etching is very useful!

 

I just found a photo of it so will add it but it looks pretty chunky compared to yours!

 

608600398_MarksTeyBracketModel016.jpg.a4e82194fcb50679be973450996c3d27.jpg

Edited by t-b-g
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58 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I think it's always been the case that folks either model the contemporary scene or the one they remember when they were younger (ie something they can directly relate to)  OR they model something based on a (completely) different era that happens to appeal to them. If it were possible, it would be interesting to survey the relative percentage of each. Clearly, as time marches relentlessly on, eventually anyone modelling the steam era, whether that be BR1948-1968, Big Four 1923-1948 or pre-grouping 1922 and earlier, will by definition NOT be modelling what they remember.

 

I count myself as already being in the latter demographic. I was four when steam ended and have just the vaguest memories of going out with Dad to see the last leaky 8Fs in the northwest of England. The time that should have made the greatest impression on me therefore is the late 1970s / early 1980s - however, it has absolutely no appeal at all to me from a modelling point of view! It doesn't too much study of pre-1968 pictures of the same scene in the 1980s to see which was the more interesting so I shall always be a pre-1968 modeller, primarily LMR 1950s although I have equally enjoyed my prolonged dalliance with LNER 1930s.

 

Will I be in the minority in 20 years time (if I'm fortunate to still be active by that date!)? Dunno. Do I care? Not really - I'm quite happy doing my 'thing', just as much as others are doing theirs.

 

 

After the last survey in 2018, I was able to show that at best 50% of modellers model what they remember as 11-15 year old train spotters.   This mirrored an earlier survey, in I think 2013 with a similar result.  This seems to be a point blinded to those that do model what they remember in their youth and post as if this is the norm.  Undoubtedly they are the biggest group but probably are outnumbered by those who do not model what they remember as an 11-15 year old.   

 

It is probably too soon to ask AndyY to run a new survey but it might nevertheless be interesting if he did.  I sense a slow but continuous movement towards periods before we were born with pre-grouping becoming slowly more and more interesting to a small but growing group of modellers.  

 

Has Rocket/will Lion push that boundary back further? perhaps we should wait a couple of years and see.

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7 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Blue diesel modellers are considered historic these days. :secret:

All of the eras post-nationalisation have been fairly short lived so lots of crossover. Blood and Custard was applied for about seven years and a few Big Four things never got it. Maroon was applied from 1956 to 1966. Painting diesels green finished at the same time. Blue diesels lasted quite a long time in BR terms from 1966 to sectorisation.

My modelling these days is based on the West Midlands in my trainspotting days of mid-1950s onwards. Even then there is too much variety to cover the lot so I cut off at 1960. Even up to then I saw at least 60 steam classes, a dozen types of DMU and railcar and about a dozen diesel loco classes. 

My earliest memories of coach liveries included travelling from Birmingham to Stafford in maroon stock in 1952 and on the Swanage branch in Southern green stock in 1953. There was also stock appearing in LNER livery at New Street around that time. 

 

Eric

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8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks Tony.

 

I had the bracket etches made specially (Nick Easton did them for me to my drawing) as, in this instance, there was no etch of the right shape / style in the otherwise excellent MSE (Wizard) range.

 

If I'm honest, they proved just a little TOO fine and they suffered a couple of minor distortions during manufacture (more or less straightened out). Nick did them as full etch for the outer spars but the intermediate bars are half etch only which is what's giving it its 'fine' look. I actually soldered on an additional piece of brass strip on to the bottom, curved spar to reinforce it all.

Top man, the Vitnery.

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