Sandy's Workbench 7mm Scale

[Sandy Harper]

More like plain badly designed, although that's not untypical of some of the early kit designers. There are others who did a good job of design, and still do.

 

Jim

Jim

Certainly the bearing hole size in the frames is probably the result of 'blowing up' from 4mm but there is no excuse for getting the spacing out on the axle centres. As this kit is described as an 'A1 Oakville' I suspect that it was marketed by Jim Harris but not necessarily designed by him.

 

Sandy

[jim.snowdon]

Jim H was by no means the only offender in this respect, and sadly their efforts are still being inflicted on newcomers to the hobby, often under different labels to the original product. On the other hand, I have every respect for people like Jim McGeown who continue to ably demonstrate that you can design economic kits that do go together. If only modellers would complain more when it comes to the "duds".

 

Jim

[Ressaldar]

Hi Sandy,

 

all looking good. Perhaps I was lucky when I put mine together - quite a few years ago now.

 

cheers

 

Mike

 

 

[Sandy Harper]

Very nice Mike

Sandy

[Sandy Harper]

Hi Sandy,

 

all looking good. Perhaps I was lucky when I put mine together - quite a few years ago now.

 

cheers

 

Mike

The small cutdown cupboard doors are going to be a challenge!

Edited May 20, 2016 by Sandy Harper

[Sandy Harper]

The main upper works are now assembled with some  detailing left to do.

 

The motor /gearbox fits nicely between the frames which leaves plenty of room for weight, chips etc in the main body of the machine.

 

Sandy

 

 

 

[Sandy Harper]

THe D2/12 is ready for the paint shop so I have taken a look at the next project. This is a 'please can you finish it for me' request by a loca club member. An Ex LTSR 51 class 4-4-2 tank (Tilbury Tank) in late LMS condition.

 

The kit is originally from the Ace kits stable and on first look the body and chassis seem to have been put together squarely. However, on a second look  all is not as it seems! The body work has been spot soldered only, and not that well. I suspect a very low powered iron was used. There are also traces of superglue around the smokebox area and buffer housings and the buffer beams are hanging off. The boiler barrel has also been 'gouged out' to accommodate the front of the tanks (see photo). AS is usual with etches blown up from smaller scales the holes are way over size so a bit of filling needed in places

 

The chassis, being N/S has been put together reasonably well but it is very narrow at 25.5mm across the outside of the top hat bearings. I will give that a bit of thought as it is too narrow for plunger pickups. It might even be too narrow to get a gearbox in! Note to self, Check!

 

By the time I fix all the issues it won't be a 'finish it of project' it will be a 'complete re-build!' Hey- Ho.

 

 

 

 

Sandy

 

 

[Sandy Harper]

So, first job, sort out the coupling rods. Yep, they need sorting!

 

 

 

Loads of solder, loads of flux and a nice hot iron.

 

Looks bad, but once I attack it with the rubber wheel........

 

 

All sorted!

 

I also did the connecting rods, at the same time and put together the motion which is a beautiful set of Laurie Griffin N/S castings. A huge improvement on the original w/m offering.

 

 

I then set the chassis jig for the wheel spacing,  as already built and offered up the refurbished coupling rods. Not really surprised! In fact I would have been more surprised if they had fitted!!

 

 

I decided not to get clever and just go for elongating the bearing holes. Gently filling the hole with an elliptical file until the whole lot fitted on the jig and then resoldering the bearings in. With a front bogie and a rear trailing truck I figured there was enough bits moving around without adding more!

 

 

Job done.

 

 

At our club day last week, one of our members brought along a very nice LNWR 2-4-2 tank. Unfortunately it kept derailing on the bends.

 

Now I know this wheel arrangement is prone to this but I could not see any problems with the outer wheels. I then tried pushing it slowly around a bend to see if I could replicate the fault, and I did but, at the same time I noticed that the front drivers were very tight to gauge.

 

You expect a bit of gauge narrowing on the bends with PECO flexible track but usually the B2B/track gauge relationship, being very generous in '0' gauge, would normally cope with this. It did with the rear drivers, but not the front set!

 

Closer investigation showed that although both sets of drivers were from the old Gibson range they had not been turned to the same profile as the front drivers has slightly thicker flanges. The answer to the derailments was now obvious, but the resolution is going to be more tricky!

 

Sandy

 

 

[sej]

Hi Sandy, I'm looking forward to seeing how your rebuild goes. I've been tempted in the past by the Ace kit for this loco and will watch with interest!

Cheers

Simon

[Sandy Harper]

Hi Sandy, I'm looking forward to seeing how your rebuild goes. I've been tempted in the past by the Ace kit for this loco and will watch with interest!

Cheers

Simon

Hi Somon

 

It would be useful to know the origin of these kits as some are obviously worse than others. This one I think has suffered from the 'blow up' process to 7mm but I suspect the chassis may be a new design. Should have got the centres correct though.

Regards

Sandy

[Sandy Harper]

And it's got worse!

I thought I was going to get away with the narrow frames. Nope, the bogie wheels fouled the rear of the cross heads. No other option but to take them apart and install new spacers 2mm wider.

 

I also took the boiler /smokebox assembly off to fill the nasty gouges in the side. The smoke box fell off as the super glue gave way!

 

 

There should now be sufficient clearance for the bogie wheels but I fear that I will still need to restrict the swing of the bogie somewhat.

 

The sharp eyed among you will notice that the outline of the cylinders is not quite the same, that's because in a moment of inattention a stray iron tip damaged the end cover of the RH cylinder. I had nothing suitable in the spares box  to use as a replacement so I turned  up a much thinner replacement in brass. As it turned out it was a blessing as the throw of the piston rod and connecting rod was too long anyway but with some judicious filing I got a nice fit. The LH side though, because of the thicker w/m end plate, took a lot more filing before a satisfactory fit was obtained!

 

 

The smoke box has been re-attached properly using solder and  the nasty gouges filled in using wire and filing the edges of the slot to a V shape before flooding with  Carrs185 deg gap filling solder and filing flat.  I have also fitted some wash out plugs to the firebox.

 

The etched holes for the handrail knobs were way too big so I soldered in a short length of brass tube to reduce the size of the original hole.

 

 

Sandy

Edited June 15, 2016 by Sandy Harper

[Barnaby]

Excellent work as normal Sandy. 

 

If I only had 1/10 of your work drive I would be well satisfied let alone your build abilities.

I'm a parallel builder who has many items on the go at one time, eventually they will all cross the line together.  I think I need to become more of a series builder so as to complete individual items and make some progress.

 

Going to be strict with myself and do a few hours each day on one project only.

[Sandy Harper]

Boiler/smokebox refitted The frame extensions, which were a very thin half etch, were backed with some scrap etch a refitted and the correct profile buffer planks were scratch built and attached.

 

Next job is to fit the deeper footplate valances that adorned this class but they will have to wait until I return from my caravan trip.

 

Up until now it has been one step forward and three  back but I think we have turned a corner and it's onward and upward from here on in. 

 

 

Barnaby, I have been there, and I have to be very strict with myself not to have more than one project going at any one time.The D2/12 in the background is just awaiting a slot in the paint shop but the wet weather has not been conducive to painting at the moment, but perfect for bashing metal on the workbench!

 

Sandy

Edited June 16, 2016 by Sandy Harper

[Sandy Harper]

Back to the workbench after a fortnight away in the caravan and two music festivals. No, not Glastonbury!

 

I am now starting to move forward with the build rather than sorting out what was done previously. Window surrounds back and front, beading around the tanks, cab and bunker, door handrails, steam pipes, buffer castings and sand boxes. Starting to see progress.

 

The banana shaped boiler is camera distortion!!!

 

 

Regards

Sandy

[N15class]

Back to the workbench after a fortnight away in the caravan and two music festivals. No, not Glastonbury!

 

I am now starting to move forward with the build rather than sorting out what was done previously. Window surrounds back and front, beading around the tanks, cab and bunker, door handrails, steam pipes, buffer castings and sand boxes. Starting to see progress.

 

The banana shaped boiler is camera distortion!!!

 

P1090282.JPG

 

Regards

Sandy

Coming on nicely. It is quite frustrating all this lovely work going on and my bench time non existant.

[Sandy Harper]

Coming on nicely. It is quite frustrating all this lovely work going on and my bench time non existant.

Thanks Peter, but you have much more important things to be dealing with. Enjoyed the pics on FB.

Regards

Sandy

Edited July 4, 2016 by Sandy Harper

[Sandy Harper]

Body detailing finished (I think!) Just the chassis to sort out now.

 

 

 

 

 

Sandy

[N15class]

now that looks better.

[Sandy Harper]

Thanks Guys, and Girls, you don't know who a lot of members are without proper names!

 

This is my first dip into the world of Ace Kits. They are not 'unbuildable', as I have heard some people say, but they are certainly a strange breed. They don't follow the usual conventions of other kit designers, in a number of respects, and very often just leave the builder to resolve problems that, with a little forethought, could have been made easier for the builder.

 

I also get the impression that they were designed without any real detailed research into the prototype or possibly a dodgy drawing had been used that was incorrect in some  of the details.

 

Notwithstanding the above, a reasonable representation of the prototype can be assembled from the parts, as long as you are not a stickler for accuracy or a rivet counter. Of course like a lot of kits they will benefit from the addition of aftermarket parts and fittings. I don't mind spending on theses as the basic cost of the kit is usually a lot less than  the better quality offerings that are available.

 

Yes, a fair amount of scratch building may be required to replace parts that may not be the correct shape but I don't consider that as a bad thing as it all helps to improve your skills as a modeller. My advice to anyone contemplating building one is to take nothing at face value and check the dimensions and fit of everything. Do not assume that anything is what you think it should be.

 

On this particular model I found that the cab roof was totally incorrect, holes in the boiler and smoke box were in the wrong place, no provision was made for cab handrail fitting, the chassis spacers were too narrow, the rod and wheel spacings were different, front and rear buffer beams were the wrong shape. These were the main items that needed correcting plus some other smaller bits that are not worth mentioning but all were recoverable with a bit of extra work.

 

Regards

 

Sandy

 

I have an ACE KITS A3 in the 'to do' pile and I have seen what can be build from the Kit by an 'average ' modeller, with the help of some aftermarket bits. I was quite impressed.

[jim.snowdon]

Sandy,

 

An erudite explanation of the pitfalls of an Ace kit - and why I think they are not kits for the beginner. But, the fact that the fundamental faults can be corrected can never be considered an excuse for the poor design in the first place.

 

Jim

[Sandy Harper]

Thank you Jim, and I agree that a beginner should not fall into the trap of 'cheap kit =I can build it!'

Getting the message across is the difficult bit. Most of the offerings from ACE, I would think, could be built by a reasonably experienced builder and with a certain satisfaction that you have overcome the deficiencies of the original kit. It is however the original kit that is the problem. Where did it originate from? Was is originally designed as a 4mm version? Was it designed by someone who just wanted the main parts etched as an aid to a scratch build project?

There has been more than one so called 'kit range' on the market in past times (and the not so recent past)  that were like that and where the designer was subsequently persuaded, or decided, to issue them as complete 'kits', which they certainly weren't.

 

A properly designed KIT will be fairly obvious to anyone by the price charged. If they weren't then they would be unlikely to sell many!

 

Regards

Sandy

[Guest Isambarduk]

I know that this topic has been discussed, debated and even argued over many times before but, if I may add a contribution ...

 

... I think this question of 'What do you expect for the price?' is about managing expectations. 

 

I have been told many times 'It is OK for you because you are an engineer' but even the very best of kits, I treat as an aid to scratch-building.  I acknowledge that some kits are going to be better aids than others and that some kits are not an aid at all, rather a demoralising hindrance, so I steer clear of them or, in a couple of cases, I resell them (there never seems to be a problem with selling kits).  So, 'That's alright for you then, David!' but I am often asked, through email enquiries, about how I did something or how I would tackle a problem that the enquirer has encountered and the answer is not always easy without sounding as if I am saying 'Well, this is how I would do it but you won't be able to!' 

 

Time for a picture interlude (not relevant but too much plain text is boring):

 

LNWR Cauliflower, making use of some of the parts of the erstwhile London Road Models kit, plus some replacement castings, plus a good number of parts that were fabricated in the DLOS/Isambarduk workshop.

 

No, much of the time, I am able to offer advice and encouragement (which is what is needed mostly) and from time to time I will offer to make pieces to help folk out - and let's not have a great rush of orders now, chaps! - but sometimes I encounter perfectionists who just expect too much even of an excellent kit (but the frames are slightly less than the scale thickness, for example) and I say something along the lines of 'Despite what you might think, my models are far, far from perfect so I suggest that you lower your expectations a bit and press on, it makes for a happier life.'  Of, course, I say it a bit more diplomatically - perhaps a bit too diplomatically sometimes because a long game of email ping-pong has followed on several occasions; that's fine, it's all part of this rich hobby of ours.

 

Picture interlude:

 

Not all that you see here was included in the excellent kit by Malcolm Mitchell for a GWR Castle; much of it was heavily modified or fabricated in my workshop.

 

In a nutshell, what you buy as a kit is what you get and, although you may expect it to 'go together' perfectly to become a very faithful scale reproduction of a chosen prototype, the reality is that you are probably going to have to accept some compromises and/or do a fair amount of work yourself.  If you just 'put it together' then you may well be more than pleased with the result, which is truly a success, but if not, you should not be surprised or disappointed but should be prepared to put in the extra graft (I would suggest).

 

I do take the point that modellers should reasonably expect 'this' and that they should reasonably expect 'that' when they purchase a kit for a good number of £s but I still say: look, inspect and manage your expectations.

 

I hope you will not mind my hijacking your thread, Sandy, but I hope this provides some food for thought.

 

David

[Sandy Harper]

I hope you will not mind my hijacking your thread, Sandy, but I hope this provides some food for thought.

 

David

 

Not at all David.

 

Sandy

[jim.snowdon]

David,

 

To quote - "I do take the point that modellers should reasonably expect 'this' and that they should reasonably expect 'that' when they purchase a kit for a good number of £s but I still say: look, inspect and manage your expectations."

 

I quite agree, but it is far from easy to look at a set of etchings and tell if the assemblage is a kit that will go together or one that will not without a fair bit of scratchbuilding. About the only method with any certainty is reputation, most of which is passed on by word of mouth rather than by good open and honest reviews in the pages of the model press and publications like the Gauge O Guild's Gazette. It is then up to the prospective builder to decide what sort of risk he is about to take on relative to his skill. There are kit manufacturers, not all of them still extant, that I would not recommend to a novice, but which become practical propositions, even interesting challenges, once greater skill has been acquired.

 

Jim

[Guest Isambarduk]

I concur 100%, Jim.   David