Dapol ex-LMS non-corridor Lavatory coaches - a review of sorts.

[6959]

In a recent trawl of eHattons web site I came across some Dapol ex-LMS non-corridor coaches at 12 quid each which seemed a good deal. I do not run LMS stock but have some LMS and LMR loco's so they would suit a WR/ LMR joint line which is my theme. As they were cheap, I bought a lavatory brake 3rd and a lavatory composite in BR carmine (as it is described).

 

So, I now owned a complete RTR '4P-010-001 57ft Stanier coach non corridor brake OO BR carmine unlined' and a complete RTR '4P-010-002 57ft Stanier coach non corridor composite OO BR carmine unlined'. Total cost with P&P was 26 Pounds. Next day I found out I could have bought them for 11 quid each in Portishead but that often happens.

 

Reading some posts on this forum I discovered that there are a few 'anomalies' with these coaches especially that the brake coach has the wrong roof because the Airfix roof tooling is beyond economic repair so it uses a composite roof instead. Also that the ventilators on the composite roof are wrong as if the two halves of the mould tool were not correctly registered. The roof error of the composite cannot easily be rectified by changing it end for end because the roof fixing lugs are off centre.

 

Rather than modify new coaches I bought the kit version of the brake 3rd to experiment with. This roof has holes moulded in it for ventilators supplied separately. It being easier to plug and re-drill holes in a roof without ventilators already glued in place. I expected to find the same mouldings in the RTR coach and the kit C096C but they are not. The C096C kit body is the same as the original Airfix moulding with windows in the end of the brake compartment but in the RTR version these holes are omitted. The complete coach 4P-010-001 has the glazing inside but no window apertures. Maybe in real life these end windows were plated over in BR days. Both brake coaches carry the same running number M20562. The running number of the composite is M16658.

 

Searching ebay for some cheap Airfix coaches that might supply roofs I bought a knackered brake coach for 6.20 and a half tidy set of brake and compo for 12.50 gbp including P&P.

 

In other ways the Dapol re-issue differs from the Airfix original. Airfix coach's under frames have a regulator box in an otherwise open truss on the opposite side to the battery box but they must have had too many breakages of the truss rods because on the Dapol coach the regulator side is boxed in for added strength. I read somewhere that some of these full size coaches had battery boxes on both sides but I cannot confirm this. Various colours of plastic are used - the Airfix and C096C kit seats are moulded in dark red plastic but the RTR brake coach has grey seat moulding. I have seen comments on a web site about these coaches with the battery box on the wrong side. The fixing lugs protruding above the under frame top surface and the corresponding slots in the coach body floor are symmetrical so it is possible to incorrectly assemble these coaches. Conversely, the fault is easily corrected.

 

The plastic wheels as supplied with all these coaches are 12mm diameter and the flanges already rub on the underside of the chassis so some scalping is required before 14mm wheels can be substituted. Recent Hornby 14mm coach wheels will fit into the Airfix and Dapol bogies.

 

Parts from Airfix/ GMR and Dapol coaches are interchangeable, errors excepted, so by mixing and matching used Airfix and new Dapol parts I now have three coaches that are reasonably presentable as ready to run coaches go but they have cost me 17.60 each, still with junk plastic wheels and needing some minor repainting. Compare this to a more detailed Bachmann MK1 coach that can be bought brand new for about 18 - 22 quid and a superb Hornby recent production coach for 26 - 30 quid unopened.

 

In the end these Dapol coaches are not cheap by the time metal wheels and correct roofs have been sourced. If I was doing this again I would buy some reasonable Airfix stock in any livery, upgrade and repaint them, maybe with the bodies from kits to save painting, and put the leftovers on ebay as a job lot.

 

Advantages of Airfix/ GMR coaches in general, relative to Dapol product:

Open truss on regulator box side of under frame (often broken but easily glued)

Correct roof for brake 3rd (Dapol uses roof from a composite)

Correct roof for composite (ventilators on Dapol roof are the wrong way 'round)

End windows in brake compartment of brake 3rd (solid on Dapol RTR but open in Dapol kit)

[Barry O]

These coaches are from really old mouldings and they need a bit of work to get them up to date.

 

You need to remove all of the underframe details and replace them - this has been discussed on RM Web in the past. I used brass and/or plastruct angle and castings from Comet and 247 to get them up to date. The roof detail can be removed using a scalpel and replacement vents from 247 (or Comet or ABS)

 

The bogies are a bit of a problem - or rather the bogie pivots - as these are very loose - a change to a more modern bogie (Bachmann , Comet or 247 Developments) helps here.

 

The end windows should not be plated over - strange that this appears in the rtr version.

 

But these are a good way of getting into RTR conversions - at a £10 a pop for the kit they can be reworked to produce a nice coach for anyone who wants to have a go at imrpoving a coach.

[chrisf]

They are also good raw material for making more numerous types of LMS suburban coach by cutting and shutting. There were only 25 of each prototype but the more common non-lav versions must have run into hundreds. I agree wholeheartedly with the need for a better underframe: mine is awaiting a round tuit.

 

Chris

[6959]

A pdf concerning under-frame mods and other upgrades:

 

http://bmrcm.org/wp-...ban-Coaches.pdf

[Xerces Fobe2]

I have a couple of these kits which I am going to use as a basis for making 2 Liverpool Southport baggage cars as they are a cheap option with no big loss if the project goes wrong

 

XF

[Timara]

They are also good raw material for making more numerous types of LMS suburban coach by cutting and shutting.

 

They most certainly are! I hope 6959 doesn't mind my putting on here a couple of images of what such a conversion looks like, both largely complete and under construction. Three of the brake coaches together make a D1735 brake third and D1784 all third (the subject of the images below). As Chris says, they were highly numerous .

 

 

 

For those of us who have an aversion to soldering a multitude of handrails and hinges onto brass coach sides, they make for a reasonable end result.

[davefrk]

Hi all, one of the biggest problems with the newly released versions (which was alluded to in an earlier post) is the fact that the battery box front face is on one side of the underframe and the rear of the box is on the opposite side which to me suggests the mould insert for the middle of the underframe mould was placed the wrong way round. I've seen any number of these coaches now and they are all the same. Airfix got it right 30 years ago so come on Dapol - fix it.... Where is the quality control?

The roofs I'm not too bothered about as I'm moving the vents and fitting brass sides anyway but what about the person that just wants a coach to use and then discovers they are wrong.

Sorry but I'm a bit miffed after spending money on these when I could have got second hand Airfix ones which were right and I wouldn't have to fix the battery box.

 

Not a happy bunny,

Dave Franks.

[6959]

They most certainly are! I hope 6959 doesn't mind my putting on here a couple of images of what such a conversion looks like, both largely complete and under construction. Three of the brake coaches together make a D1735 brake third and D1784 all third (the subject of the images below). As Chris says, they were highly numerous .

 

 

 

For those of us who have an aversion to soldering a multitude of handrails and hinges onto brass coach sides, they make for a reasonable end result.

 

Please share with us some more of your pictures and some information on where to make the cut lines including which side of the saw. Roof changes in ventilator positions are shown on the Comet site.

[45568]

Please share with us some more of your pictures and some information on where to make the cut lines including which side of the saw. Roof changes in ventilator positions are shown on the Comet site.

Yes, please do, you Goddard of plastic!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers, Peter C.

[Guest Max Stafford]

For me it's the glazing that jars most. Find a good solution to that and I'll be knocking out three of my own for ScR purposes.

[brossard]

A pdf concerning under-frame mods and other upgrades:

 

http://bmrcm.org/wp-...ban-Coaches.pdf

 

Gratifying to see that you have quoted my article. As for glazing, SE Finecast do a flush glaze pack that improves the appearance.

 

Cheers

 

John

[6959]

Matters Arising - weights

 

The weights in Airfix/ GMR and Dapol versions of these LMS coaches differ and are not totally interchangeable.

 

Airfix weight: (mm x mm x mm x gram)

96 x 25 x 2 x 34 gram

galvanised steel

1 central hole dia 7,8 (tooling hole for punch press?)

2 holes dia 5,25 on 44 centres equal about central hole

{the two smaller holes locate on cruciform projections on top surface of Airfix under frame}

 

Dapol weight: (mm x mm x mm x gram)

Plain steel

96 x 22 x 1,6 x 24 gram

No holes in weight

{cruciform projections on top surface of under frame deleted}

 

The Airfix weight can be used in the Dapol coach without modification of either the coach or the weight provided that the almost one- third increase in weight is acceptable. In either coach the weight is a snug fit.

 

To use the Dapol weight in the Airfix under frame, either two holes must be drilled in it to clear the cruciform projections on the Airfix under frame, or else the projections must be removed. As supplied the Dapol weight is a rattling fit in the modified Dapol under frame.

[6959]

Matters Arising - ride height

 

The Airfix/ GMR and Dapol versions of these LMS coaches have different ride heights due to tooling modifications for the Dapol under frame moulding.

 

The RCH standard for the height above the top of the running rail to the centre line of the buffers is understood to have been set at 3 feet 1 inch minimum to 3 feet 6 inch maximum which gives a mean height of 3 feet 4-1/2 inch and when converted to 4 mm scale looks like this:

 

3ft-1in = 12,33 mm (more generally applicable to old wagons than coaches)

3ft-3in = 13,0 mm

3ft-4.5in = 13,5 mm

3ft-6in = 14,0 mm

 

All these models have bosses moulded on the underside of the under frame to support the bogies.

Buffer Heights are set by the thickness of the bogie pin bosses - Airfix and Dapol bogie frames being identical in their principal dimensions.

 

Airfix/ GMR under frame

Boss dia 7,25

Hole dia 3,55

Airfix boss thickness measured from top surface = 5,23 mm (.206 inch)

 

Dapol under frame

Boss dia 7,25

Hole dia 3,55

Dapol boss thickness measured from top surface = 5,92 mm (.233 inch)

Difference is therefore plus 0,69 mm (.027 inch) in the the Dapol moulding

 

Airfix - height of buffer centres above top of rail with 14 mm wheels = 13 mm [scale 3 feet - 3 inches}

Dapol - height of buffer centres above top of rail with 14 mm wheels = 13,69 mm [scale 3 feet - 5 inches} (Actual buffer heights can vary slightly in different models depending on the length of the wheel axle which could cause more or less of the conical end to be engaged in the bogie side frame bearing holes).

[Timara]

 

Please share with us some more of your pictures and some information on where to make the cut lines including which side of the saw. Roof changes in ventilator positions are shown on the Comet site.

 

 

Yes, please do, you Goddard of plastic!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers, Peter C.

 

 

Just realised I hadn't updated my goings on with these coaches! I shall probably post a few more details about the finished/more progressed ones over in my workbench thread later, but here are some work-in-progress images showing how I go about building such things.

 

This one below is the beginnings of a D1906 all second (or third in LMS days). I've mentioned the quantity of bodyshells required in an earlier post above. The cuts are made on the donor so as to allow the lav section to be removed entirely and a perfect join between the resultant sections. I use Evergreen 4x2.5mm strip to brace it at the bottom and then some 60x40 thou strip a the top once everything is in place so as to aid fitment of the roof.

 

 

 

The alarm gear and other items on one end need to be removed, making sure it's from the correct one! With the battery box facing you, the alarm gear is at the left hand end. The same parts from another bodyshell make up the remaining compartments, with the leftover single one used to make up the six in a brake second/third.

 

Composites are a slightly different ballgame and require a lot more work. Three still go into two, but more compartments are left over, which means there are spares if saw cuts go slightly awry!

 

 

 

Only one diagram (D1734) has closer-spaced compartments, with the preceding and succeeding diagrams having wider 1st class and narrower third/second class compartments. I'm tempted to try one of these another day as it uses the three compartments off the CL in one piece....

 

Happy to answer any further questions!

[Kempenfelt]

Interesting thread chaps, I wasn't aware of these coaches! Thanks for sharing!

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[coachmann]

What has always puzzled me is all the pricking about cutting up plastic coaches and gluing on bits of metal when it is easier to start from etched parts and build a proper scale model. 21st Century and still wedded to plastic and glue. 

[Kempenfelt]

Fair point Coach but it depends what material you're comfortable working with. Personally I'm with you and prefer an etched coach, however I'm still willing to see how other approach the same problem. I'm not saying either solution is right or wrong but I know what solution I'm happier with.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[coachmann]

If folk would just stretch their options that extra mile and buy a Weller 45watt soldering iron (for example), liquid flux and suitable solder, they would find a whole new world open to them. A 25watt soldering iron is also very useful for light soldering and whitemetal parts.

 

And to forestall those who would say it is easy for me to talk, I had to start somewhere just like we all do. My first loco was a total disaster in 1962 and I started to build railway models in the then new Plastikard instead. When I moved to Wales a few years later a chance visit to GEM Models put me on track for buying the correct tools for soldering whitemetal kits. Even so, it wasn't until the year 2000 that I built my first coach in brass. The only change was higher melting point solder and different liquid flux. And the great thing is, if you make a bollox the brass can be unsoldered again.

[Adrian Wintle]

If folk would just stretch their options that extra mile and buy a Weller 45watt soldering iron (for example), liquid flux and suitable solder, they would find a whole new world open to them. A 25watt soldering iron is also very useful for light soldering and whitemetal parts.

 

And to forestall those who would say it is easy for me to talk, I had to start somewhere just like we all do. My first loco was a total disaster in 1962 and I started to build railway models in the then new Plastikard instead. When I moved to Wales a few years later a chance visit to GEM Models put me on track for buying the correct tools for soldering whitemetal kits. Even so, it wasn't until the year 2000 that I built my first coach in brass. The only change was higher melting point solder and different liquid flux. And the great thing is, if you make a bollox the brass can be unsoldered again.

 

Unfortunately, a full express of brass coaches is probably too heavy for a loco to move, hence my liking of cut and shut and overlays. I like building brass coaches, but I'm realistic about the tractive effort of my locos.

 

Adrian

[Barry O]

Unfortunately, a full express of brass coaches is probably too heavy for a loco to move, hence my liking of cut and shut and overlays. I like building brass coaches, but I'm realistic about the tractive effort of my locos.

 

Adrian

Adrian

 

Brass coaches are not too heavy - they run as freely as plastic ones but can have better running capacity.  The problem is that some of the RTR locos are a bit weak - they seem to struggle with RTR stock - they are happier with the brass ones!

 

Of course you can easily "skin" the Dapol coaches with brass sides - some of which have gone for low prices on flebay recently - if you can cut and shut plastic bits you can easily add the brass sides

[coachmann]

Some of my earlier designed coaches were heavy but it didnt matter at the time as they were two-coach push & pull trains. Today my coaches are very light through eliminating whitemetal batteryboxes and whitemetal bogies. Weight has been reduced by etched top plates where whitemetal bogie sideframes have to be used. Hornby and Bachmann 14mm wheels are also considerbly heavier than Gibson plastic centre wheels.

 

While RTR plastic locos will not pull anywhere near the amount of rolling stock the old lead filled metal locos would do, we have to live with the present day situation where RTR all-but rules on many layouts.

[Adrian Wintle]

Adrian

 

Brass coaches are not too heavy - they run as freely as plastic ones but can have better running capacity.  The problem is that some of the RTR locos are a bit weak - they seem to struggle with RTR stock - they are happier with the brass ones!

 

Of course you can easily "skin" the Dapol coaches with brass sides - some of which have gone for low prices on flebay recently - if you can cut and shut plastic bits you can easily add the brass sides

 

I don't have a loco (RTR or kit-built) that is going to haul 10+ brass coaches through the 36" radius curves on the layout - we run expresses on the high lines. My friend's Hornby Live Steam locos might manage it.

 

Adrian

[Straits Settlements]

I've acquired a couple of secondhand Airfix/GMR examples, plus a Dapol kit yet to be built. I imagined it would be the easiest thing in the world to just pop in some Bachmann 14mm coach wheels to replace the plastic originals. Wrong! They go in, but pretty tight to turn with fingers; and my poor L&Y radial just picks up its feet and refuses to move the pair of them. I've tried a 6B pencil and a tiny drop of oil on the axle points, to no avail. Has anyone come across the same problem and worked out a simple solution? Thanks

 

John

[coachmann]

I've acquired a couple of secondhand Airfix/GMR examples, plus a Dapol kit yet to be built. I imagined it would be the easiest thing in the world to just pop in some Bachmann 14mm coach wheels to replace the plastic originals. Wrong! They go in, but pretty tight to turn with fingers; and my poor L&Y radial just picks up its feet and refuses to move the pair of them. I've tried a 6B pencil and a tiny drop of oil on the axle points, to no avail. Has anyone come across the same problem and worked out a simple solution? Thanks

 

John

The pin-point taper on Bachmann coach wheels is slightly different to other pinpoint axles, so try Hornby coach wheels. As an aside, Hornbys' run well in Markits pinpoint bearing while Bachmann's do not.

[Straits Settlements]

The pin-point taper on Bachmann coach wheels is slightly different to other pinpoint axles, so try Hornby coach wheels. As an aside, Hornbys' run well in Markits pinpoint bearing while Bachmann's do not.

Many thanks, Coachman. I'll try to get some Hornby wheels locally- back-ordered at Hattons, I see. I was pleasantly surprised when I received a couple of Dapol wagon kits recently to find they came supplied with metal wheels. Pity they haven't got round to doing the same for the coach kits.

 

John