Indian Red revisited

[Michael Hodgson]

You aren't allowed to use the words lndian and red together any more. 

You have to say native Americans.

[billbedford]

Shouldn't that be 'American Natives'?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

Shouldn't that be 'American Natives'?

 

Lol. 

[Wenrash]

Copy of the back Dust Cover of Laurence Waters "Saint Class" Book.

I think #98 is the same as Miss P's link. Is #171 just fancy?

Waters has nothing to add to the livery scheme, other than lament no colour photo's.

He does say that the history cards show that 174 and 180 were initially fitted with Dean Churchward 4000 gal tenders no's 1458 and 1456 respectively. This info came directly from the record sheets held in TNA Kew. Also the record sheets are not complete for the early Saints

 

R Ashenden

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Wenrash said:

Copy of the back Dust Cover of Laurence Waters "Saint Class" Book.

I think #98 is the same as Miss P's link. Is #171 just fancy?

Waters has nothing to add to the livery scheme, other than lament no colour photo's.

He does say that the history cards show that 174 and 180 were initially fitted with Dean Churchward 4000 gal tenders no's 1458 and 1456 respectively. This info came directly from the record sheets held in TNA Kew. Also the record sheets are not complete for the early Saints

 

R Ashenden

 

Yes, if I half close my eyes, that lower picture becomes a Great Central Manchester express on the London Extension!

[Wenrash]

I have just realised that the white elliptical roofed coach could be, or purport to be, a dining car for the Riviera.

Richard A

[Miss Prism]

The coloured view of 98 lacks some credibility in my opinion - red splasher sides, red crossheads, red tender axleboxes, green splasher tops. The coloured view of 171 is better, but the splasher sides are red. (But where do those clerestory roofs come from!!!!??)  Both are quickie postcard views and are not as reliable as the pic in Stationmaster Mike's earlier post. That said, given that we now know 179 did have red frames, it seems logical the rest of the Scotts (February to December 1905) had the same or similar treatment. The key phrase in Holcroft's memoir of the change from red to black frame is "beginning with" [the County Tanks]. We do not know how reliable this recollection is, or whether Holcroft had in mind the start of a new class. If we accept the change was abrupt (in August 1906),  then it is not only the Scotts that are red-framed - the first Ladies (2901-10, all of May 1906), the Birdcage tanks, the first small and large Prairies, and the first 2-8-0s (2800-20, of 1905) are also drawn into the net. Most of these other candidates are not express passenger engines of course, and that was probably a factor in my view, post-1903, in determining whether indian red was still to be applied to the frames. If the change was not abrupt, then all bets are off. The paint shop bosses no longer ruled the roost, because the loco paint shop had been closed by then. And Churchward didn't really give two hoots about colour - paint for him was merely a means of preserving his precious metal. So what was really going on in the erecting shop at the time? We don't know.

 

 

[Compound2632]

55 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

the loco paint shop had been closed by then.

 

When did it close? I would suppose that would herald the onset of chaos.

 

Re. red splasher faces with green splasher tops - that's the Great Central style again!

[Miss Prism]

Not quite sure when the loco paint shop closed (even guru Stationmaster doesn't know), but it was early on in Churchward's regime, who wanted to free up more erecting space. I don't suppose it was an overnight change though. It's not mentioned in Alan Peck's Swindon Works book afaik, but I've just ordered a copy (for the princely sum of £1.94 !) to check.

 

[The Stationmaster]

I would always caution about believing what you are seeing in non-photgraphic railway postcards from, particularly, the pre WWI period .  The picture used on the dust cover of the Laurence Waters appeared as a Wrench series postcard with rather different colour rendering in which it was clearlty a colorisation of an original b&w photo and the running number had been altered.   Wrench was in business from 190 -06 and quite likely obtained the colorised image from elsewhere although the company might have colorised the image themselves.  

 

Maybe - or probably not - a slightly more convincing view of a Saint considerably bedecked with Indian Red frames, cylinders and splasher fronts appeared as ' The Cornishmann ear Box, Great Western Railway' in the No.5 series of GWR postcards.  The image is possibly based on a photo but is fairly obviously a painting/coloristaion in a number of places.  This particular card was posted (at Paddington) on 21 december 1906 so was no doubt on sale from the GWR at that time.

 

The third coloured view postcard I have is one published by the Locomotive Publishing Co.and is definitely a painting - showing 171 as an atlantic.  It bears the Amen Corner address of teh publisher which means it was published some time between 1903 and 1940.  However the postage stamp space indicates a 0.5d stamp should be used  and the postage rate for postcards increased to 1d in 1918 so the card can reliably be dated as being issued at some time between 1903 and 1918, and probably in the early part of that period.  The engine has indian red franes, hanging bar, cylinder covers and splashers fronts and all are lined.

 

The origin of the coloured views of a static Non. 98 is in itself interesting.  I have a 1904 posted works grey view of 4-6-0  No. 98 described on the card 'Latest Type Great Western Goods Engine' card issuer unknown.  I also have exactly the same view of the same engine but printed in slightly lighter tones with no name of issuer (but marked 'Series 2' which suggests that it might be a GWR official card)  posted February 1905 at Paddington.  The card is entitled 'Latest Type Passneger Engine (GWR) 'Albion' - and yes, at some time the negative used to make the print had the running number altered to 171 and a nameplate 'Albion' drawn in above the middle splasher.

 

 

So there are I think several conclusions to be drawn here.  Firstly even what might at first sight look like, or even be,  official photographs that definitely started in that state could have details altered by 'somebody' and can mislead regarding what they actually represent.   Secondly there was a considerable passion for colorising postcards in the Pre WWI period (and later - although not to such a great extent) and the person who did the colorising might not know over much about railways so must have copied something.   But with so  many cards so coloured and, especially, that Locomotive Publishing Co original artwork card there seems to be considerable evidence to support the conclusions regarding the use of indian red on frames etc. mentioned above by Miss P.

 

I have a number of contemporaneous b&w photos of early 'Saints' and while the evidence can only be from a variation in tone a number of them have cab & tender foot steps which are quite light in colour and much lighter than in later photos.  Less conclusive - because of the way light falls on them - is the 'lighter tone' appearance of cylinders although nothing can be reliably estimated in respect of the frames because of them being in shade.

 

And a litte footnote about my opening sentence and what you should or shouldn't believe.  i have two different original coloured artwork postcards showing 'The Great Bear' emerging from Parsons Tunnel heading west.

[bécasse]

The F.Moore colour pictures for the Locomotive Publishing Company were the work (at least until the early 1930s) of the reclusive Thomas Rudd. Rudd painted in oils over photographic prints of his subject and, although he often altered the background, the railway content is always accurate. He was a frequent visitor (early train spotter!) to Paddington station so he would have been familiar with the livery of the prototype locomotives; if he portrayed the outside of the frames as red then they were red.

 

Incidentally, the LPC offices moved to Amen Corner in 1903, so a card bearing that address cannot have been produced earlier than that year.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, bécasse said:

The F.Moore colour pictures for the Locomotive Publishing Company were the work (at least until the early 1930s) of the reclusive Thomas Rudd. Rudd painted in oils over photographic prints of his subject and, although he often altered the background, the railway content is always accurate. He was a frequent visitor (early train spotter!) to Paddington station so he would have been familiar with the livery of the prototype locomotives; if he portrayed the outside of the frames as red then they were red.

 

Incidentally, the LPC offices moved to Amen Corner in 1903, so a card bearing that address cannot have been produced earlier than that year.

Which is why I quoted between 1903 and 1940 and then narrowed it down from other evidence on the card to it being produced between 1903 and 1918.