Indian Red revisited

[Miss Prism]

I know this topic has been discussed a number of times, but I've put up a couple of new pics on the gwr.org.uk site, including one of Stephan's delightful Dean 2-2-2, to show how interpretations of 'indian red' vary, and to compare with the very light tone used by Chris Wesson in his 3245 2-4-0 pic used to head that page. 'Indian red', in modern parlance, is probably no more than a fancy name for bauxite (itself a multitude of shades), but it's interesting to note modellers seem to have been moving toward a darker tone more in alignment with GW Way's rather vague 'purple-brown' citation.

 

Btw, here are some colour swatches (based on Leyland L78) I posted a while ago in another thread for comparison, the last being an attempt to scale the distance a bit. Please note that the colour you are looking at will differ considerably according to whether you are looking at a CRT or an LCD screen. (The latter will appear far lighter.)

 

 

 

 

All we need now is a pic of Buffalo Nick's Buffalo frame colour and the journey to the 'dark side' will be complete.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Miss Prism

[BG John]

I'm pretty sure this was painted with an "Indian Red" model paint, or at least what was recommended at the time, thirty or more years ago. It may have been Precision Paints. I've probably still got the tin! Of course that doesn't mean it was accurate!

[The Stationmaster]

When I gave 'knobhead' some info for his wheel and frame colour I compared things with a contemporaneous print which had come from, I think, 'The Railway Magazine' or suchlike and which is in very good condition with no fading as it has clearly been stored away from light sources. Interestingly it compares fairly well withnother contemporaneous illustrations (mainly from non-railway hobby sources) and I suspect it is a fairly accurate rendition (who fancies a 'Star' with 'indian red' cylinders let alone frames and wheels etc in that colour?).

[Kenton]

Btw, here are some colour swatches (based on Leyland L78) I posted a while ago in another thread for comparison, the last being an attempt to scale the distance a bit. Please note that the colour you are looking at will differ considerably according to whether you are looking at a CRT or an LCD screen. (The latter will appear far lighter.)

 

Sorry, but I have a real problem with any interpretation of colours. This is made worse by rendering on PCs and the rendering of reds (among other colours) on various materials. Colour, I find, is very subjective and this is even worse when only interpreted (or worse imagined) from what it might have been. We have no examples of how it was as many of the pigments used then have deteriorated or simply faded beyond what they actually were. Add to that the high percentage of us (particularly males) who are unable to register fine differences in red and "indian red" can be anything between signal red and purple. In other words - does it matter? It is probably going to get weathered by those that favour such things anyway.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Kenton

[aberdare]

I find it very difficult to see any difference between the first two swatches being colour blind, as for colour I have to rely on what is available and I use the Precision colour as it looks OK in my eyes. Like Kenton says it's subjective and all the different interpretations of what is right just confuses me all the more, so rightly or wrongly I think I'll stick to what I know, at least I will have some form of consistency across my locos.

[buffalo]

Ah, one of my favourite cans of worms, or should that be red herrings? Your new gwr.org page is very interesting and perhaps does show changes in the modelling concensus. One little point, red lamps would only be seen at the very end of the red frame period or on late survivors. Black lamps with spigots were the norm until 1903/4.

Apart from being a splendid model, I've always found that photo of Chris Wesson's 3232 fascinating. Maybe it's just the photo, or my screen, but it looks to me to be quite brown compared with most interpretations of indian red. I've often wondered whether there might be a continuum of shades from the earlier windsor brown frames. Mind you, I've seen interpretations of windsor brown ranging from a pale milk through to a dark plain (at least 70%) chocolate. My inclination here is for the lighter end but that's probably just modern rather than late Victorian or Edwardian aesthetics.

My Buffalo is still unfortunately in pieces in the works awaiting regauging so I can't supply any more photos than those on my blog. That colour is actually Precision P6 and, although it looks a little lighter than the photos suggest, it is a very dark brown with some added purple. Interestingly, GWW describes P6 as "...more like the early Windsor brown with a slight purple tinge." Perhaps a better representation of the colour I was aiming for is illustrated by David Bigcheeseplant's 850. I first tried the Railmatch version of indian red which can be seen on the wheels on this blog entry. This is a redder colour, more of a typical bauxite, but still with a significant amount of purple, more like the Adrian Prescott River on the gwr.org page.

One thing I'm fairly convinced of is that the lighter, almost orangey shades are wrong. Remember that the lining at the edge of the frames was black and orange, so the red frame colour would need to be significantly different from the orange lining to provide adequate contrast. It's perhaps worth remarking that with black and white photos it is the presence of this thin orange line that often provides the confirmation of the red frames.
 

...who fancies a 'Star' with 'indian red' cylinders let alone frames and wheels etc in that colour?

What a wonderful idea, even better an Atlantic? Unfortunately, even No 40, later North Star, later still No 4000, was first turned out in the 1906 livery (see photos in Russell and the RCTS Modern Passenger Classes. Presumably, however, No 100 William Dean and some at least of the early Atlantics, Albion, Magnet, etc. may have carried a red framed livery? If so, we can at least have a Saint prototype.

Nick

 

Edit: North Star livery, see below...

Edited August 8, 2013 by buffalo

[buffalo]

...at least I will have some form of consistency across my locos.

I hope you are not suggesting that the GWR did?

 

Nick

[Buckjumper]

May I quote an interesting passage from Sidney Stone's contemporaneous work Railway Carriages & Wagons, which is a collection of articles first published in The Railway Engineer between 1892 - 1897? Stone was trained in the DO at Stratford and went on to be the Asst. Works Manager of the GCR. Although his writings only cover issues pertinent to carriages and wagons, he has some interesting comments on paint, and refers readers to 'Terry's Paints, Pigments and Painting.'

 

Indian Red: This pigment is a ground hæmetite ore obtained in Bengal. The colour varies, but that with a rosy tint is considered the best. Calcined sulphate of iron is sometimes used to make an artificial substitute for it.

 

Now that doesn't tell us too much, but can we infer from this passage that if the purple/brown shade(s) folk now think may be correct was being used, then Swindon was painting locos an inferior tint?

 

A shocking thought!

Edited December 14, 2012 by Buckjumper

[The Stationmaster]

 

What a wonderful idea, even better an Atlantic? Unfortunately, even No 40, later North Star, later still No 4000, was first turned out in the 1906 livery (see photos in Russell and the RCTS Modern Passenger Classes. Presumably, however, No 100 William Dean and some at least of the early Atlantics, Albion, Magnet, etc. may have carried a red framed livery? If so, we can at least have a Saint prototype.

Nick

Prepare for surprise - or maybe even a shock

[Craigw]

The NSWGR (New South Government railways) and successors painted coaching stock in "Indian Red" from 1954 onwards. I found some pics on flickr which give some idea of "Indian red". Here are some links:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/intervene/4887313067/in/set-72157624110383458

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctorjbeam/7182520107/

 

Browsing around through Flickr will show plenty of others, but personally I think Indian Red has for more red in it than brown.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Buckjumper]

The NSWGR (New South Government railways) and successors painted coaching stock in "Indian Red" from 1954 onwards. I found some pics on flickr which give some idea of "Indian red". Here are some links:

 

It's a pleasant colour and suits the stock, but I'm not sure it helps in this instance as NSWGR Deep Indian Red could be a completely different shade to that used by the GWR.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Buckjumper

[Miss Prism]

Black lamps with spigots were the norm until 1903/4.

 

Thanks, Nick. Page duly amended. Would appreciate the old RMweb url to the lamp body insignia.

[Craigw]

It's a pleasant colour and suits the stock, but I'm not sure it helps in this instance as NSWGR Deep Indian Red could be a completely different shade to that used by the GWR.

 

The NSWR used "deep indian red" on some stock from 1974, but from 1954 they used "Indian red". The indian red was a British standard paint and the NSWR used standard paints from inception. I have a painting book somewhere from about 1890 that lists paint recipes, I will see if I can locate it. There is a section of an LFX (2nd class Express Lavatory car) that was built in 1905 and painted in then contemporary colours which research suggests is Indian red. This has been in store and preserved since 1905. i will see if I can find a colour picture of it. The point is that Indian red is just that - a red. Anything that tends towards brown is not Indian red.

 

Miss Prism,

 

Are there any contemporary sources that refer to Indian red? I noticed that the extract from "The Locomotive" on the GWR modelling site describes the green as chrome green, but refers to the frames being painted red-brown and does not specifically say "Indian Red"

 

 

Found some photos of the carriage sections. These date from 1905 and still have the original paint - also always kept indoors:

 

http://web.aanet.com.au/bayling/NSWRsect.html

 

Craig W

Edited December 15, 2012 by Craigw

[Krusty]

Quote

 

The indian red was a British standard paint and the NSWR used standard paints from inception.

 

FWIW the attached image shows the brown and pink colours page from the 1948 issue of BSS 381C. It was shot raw using a Canon 40D and colour-balanced using a WhiBal card, but was rendered using the Adobe Standard camera profile in ACR, so can't be guaranteed to be completely accurate (and will be even further off if you aren't viewing it in a colour-managed browser).

 

Edited December 15, 2012 by Krusty

[Buckjumper]

I'm afraid that references to British Standard paints are a red herring. The first standard BS381c was introduced in 1930, twenty four years after the GW stopped painting frames Indian red, and who's to say that the BS Indian Red was anything close the the GW shade?

 

Another red herring is the reference to post-WW2 paint. Paint technology in the Late Victorian/Edwardian period was much better than that of the mid-Victorian period, but still fairly basic compared to development in the middle of the 20thC. Paint used by the pre-Grouping companies was little more than a tint suspended in oil requiring many coats to build up the full lustre. Reds are notoriously translucent, the colour of the undercoat had a major role to play in the final shade - as did the varnish. Did the GW use Copal on locos? If so that would have altered the final colour too.

 

The point is that although Indian Red is more red than brown (suppliers of paint pigments refer to the original Bengal pigment as more purple than modern equivalents), the final appearance on the loco could easily appear to be purple brown if used in conjunction with a dark red undercoat. The Midland goods loco brown is as good a case for this as you'll find, being crimson over iron oxide. It would be interesting to know what procedures were used to effect a rose tint as described by Stone.

 

Very interesting and useful photos of the NSWGR carriages! Do you have any idea as to what the varnish was they used? Copal was the best quality and used extensively on carriages in that period, but unfortunately darkens considerably with age whether stored inside or out.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Buckjumper

[buffalo]

I was going to ask that we get away from British Standards as they are something of a distraction. British Standards originated in the Engineering Standards Cttee of the Institution of Civil Engineers in 1901 and what was to become the 'Kitemark' was registered in 1903. This was towards the end of the period of interest here and, at that time, they were only concerned with engineering standards and did not produce any colour standards until many years later, by which time paint technologies had changed significantly. However, Krusty's post is interesting in two respects. Firstly, it is a reminder of the longevity of colour names and, secondly, the chart includes both 'deep indian red' and 'light purple brown'. They are both quite similar colours and it is interesting to note that contemporary sources for the Swindon and Wolverhampton frame colours variously use the terms 'indian red', 'purple brown' and 'red-brown' to describe the frame and wheel colours used between 1886 and 1906. These sources include drawing office documents and official minutes as well as descriptions in books and journals by those who either worked for the GWR or were keen outside observers. There are also contemporary models that can provide some guide to the appearance of the colours. An 1892 description by Rev Malan of late broad gauge engines, which most other sources agree had the same colours, refers to "warm Venetian red wheels and framing". Whilst some authors have thought this confusing, misleading or just mistaken, Krusty's colour chart would suggest that venetian red is again quite close to indian red. Incidentally, 'imperial brown', or perhaps 'beech brown', on the chart looks to me to be a good match for the earlier 'Windsor brown' frame colour as seen on the Iron Duke replica and various contemporary models. Certainly it looks better (again to me) than chocolate which is how Windsor brown is often described. Though perhaps here we need to remember that colours may look lighter on large areas than on small ones, hence models often looking too dark.

 

Whilst waiting for Mike's surprise/shock, it's also perhaps worth adding to my tentative comments about the early Atlantics and 4-6-0s. We know there were some experimental liveries at this time, including red-lined black, but on current evidence we should expect most other engines built in the early years of the 20th century to have been turned out with red frames. That was the standard livery of the time. Our contemporary sources for the date of the change to black frames are at least twofold. GWW says Churchward's instructions on the livery change were recorded in minutes dated 30/4/1907 [RAIL 250/589] (is that significantly post hoc, or a misprint?). Harold Holcroft, who worked at both Wolverhampton and Swindon at this time wrote that "in 1906 a change occured in painting locomotives, beginning with the "County" tanks, The red-brown, picked out with black and orange-yellow lining, applied to the framing and wheels, gave place to black with orange-yellow lining." I assume from this that the first example, 2221 built in September 1905, was not included, but the remainder, built from August 1906 onwards, were turned out with black frames. On this basis, the earliest other engines with black frames could not have been produced before late 1906. In addition to William Dean, Albion, Magnet etc¹. this would then include the Ladies (May 1906). Again, if it was not a rapid changeover but a progressive introduction we might even be able to include the Stars built in early 1907. Is this Mike's promised surprise?

 

Nick

 

¹ Incidentaally, although those photos I've seen of these engines in service are insufficiently clear to detect red frames, as might be expected their works grey photos show the grey version of the pre-1906 livery with features such as thick black edging on the splashers

 

ps. took me so long to write that Adrian's comments on BS and paints arrived before I was half-way through...

Edited December 15, 2012 by buffalo

[buffalo]

...Did the GW use Copal on locos? If so that would have altered the final colour too...

I've no information for the period in question, but John Lewis in GWW quotes from a "List of stores kept in stock at Swindon General Stores". This is dated July 1922 but has an ink stamp dated April 1932 as well as undated alterations, some of which he suggests be may during or after WW2. He says:

 

"In the varnishes section 'Coach body, best finishing' and 'Engine, Body' were both deleted but there was:

Copal for outdoor work

Copal for Maritime Department

 

..."

This would suggest to me that they did indeed use copal for engines and coaches, until at least 1922, and probably for some time later.

 

Incidentally, the list of "dry colours" included "Purple brown (deleted)", "Red, Indian, Light", "Red, Venetian".

 

Nick

Edited December 15, 2012 by buffalo

[The Stationmaster]

And now the surprise. Regrettably it is undated but it is marked at the top 'Presented with The Railway Magazine' and as it includes technical detail it strikes me that it must have closely post-dated the release of the loco from works and the availability of information about it. However what is clear is the livery - unless there was a very inventive artist who thought the old order of livery still applied?

 

[buffalo]

Lovely picture, Mike. As No 40 was turned out in April 1906 it predates the first black frames on County tanks in September and ran without a name for several months, this is surely what it should have looked like even though the available monochrome images are not good enough to confirm. What I find particularly interesting is the single lined panel on the tender with GREAT <crest> WESTERN. This is often said to be part of the 1906 (i.e. black framed) livery with earlier engines carrying the three panels with monogram. I think it would make more sense if the single panel had been introduced a year or two earlier.

 

Nick

 

ps. both of the early (i.e. unnamed) photos in Russell show this style of tender and, with the eye of faith, I can perhaps detect a hint of black edging around the cab step cutouts.

 

pps. just found a comment on page 26 of the current GWW under the heading 'Crests' that says this style of tender lining was introduced in 1903-4. Strange, then, that the drawings on this and other pages and text elsewhere date the change as 1906

Edited December 15, 2012 by buffalo

[asmay2002]

Paint used by the pre-Grouping companies was little more than a tint suspended in oil requiring many coats to build up the full lustre. Reds are notoriously translucent, the colour of the undercoat had a major role to play in the final shade - as did the varnish.

 

You are confusing two different sorts of Red paint here. Indian red, Venetian red, and other red oxides are all pigments made from the brown/red ore haematite (Fe2O3 also known as Rust). They are not translucent. The translucent reds tended to be made from natural organic pigments and are quite unrelated. In many cases a red oxide of some sort such as Indian red was used as an undercoat for one of the translucent colours specifically because it was not translucent.

 

The earlier reference to haematite coming in various shades is absolutely correct with the Bengal shade being the genuine Indian red. What we are talking about here essentially is selecting the correct shade of rust colour that the GWR used.

 

Many railways in the colonies painted carriages and wagons in "Indian red" with NSWGR being one example. (The shades almost certainy differed. The NSWGR shade is almost maroon whilst the shade used in Western Australia was much more red/brown - I have a chip)

 

A recent and well know user of Indian Red is the Isle of Man Railway on its 2-4-0 Tanks (but not the coaches).

Edited December 15, 2012 by asmay2002

[coachmann]

Aim for the shade in Stationmasters illustration and you wont be far wrong. The loco we all copied at one time was City of Truro but then I remember Alan Brackenborough writing to tell me it had been discovered that the frames red was too light. Oops, think of all the wrong models! City of Truro got repainted and we went for the darker shade. Railways were more simplistic than one might think despite all the names given to greens and reds. Red Lead and oxide were a good protective for metal so what better than to tip some black into it and give it a name....hey presto GWR Indian Red or whatever.

 

I have mixed my own colours in cellulose for years and David Jenkinson once gave me the compliment of saying I was able to look at a colour and know its composition. I should add I could not mix crimson lake. Colour-coordination is also nothing new, which is why railway liveries looked classic and subdued, unlike fairground engines. Take NBR loco 'green'. It can be mixed from tinter yellow, black and red. The colours used to decorate this main colour were yellow, black and red! Take GWR green. When mine settles it has orange at the bottom, so thats a mix of yellow, blue and red and a touch of black to kill the brightness and give it better covering power. GWR lining colour is orange. GWR brown is black and red plus a touch of GW loco green at its most simplistic.....colour coordination at work again.

 

As a rider, we assume the GWR was all things bright & beautiful before the war, but Railway Magazine carried a story in the 1930s about complaints of Khaki locos. The depression caused the company to put more thinners in the green paint to make it go further, but after some weeks in traffic it turned khaki.

Edited December 15, 2012 by coachmann

[buffalo]

... Would appreciate the old RMweb url to the lamp body insignia.

Nothing red about it^*, but the pre-1903 headcodes are towards the bottom of this page. That came from the first edition GWW and it also appears in the new edition in Appendix 9, where it says the source is "Instructions as to distinctive headlights and targets" dated 13/5/1885.

 

Nick

 

* apart from the letter 'S' on a white background

Edited December 15, 2012 by buffalo

[Buckjumper]

You are confusing two different sorts of Red paint here. Indian red, Venetian red, and other red oxides are all pigments made from the brown/red ore haematite (Fe2O3 also known as Rust). They are not translucent. The translucent reds tended to be made from natural organic pigments and are quite unrelated. In many cases a red oxide of some sort such as Indian red was used as an undercoat for one of the translucent colours specifically because it was not translucent.

 

Yes I don't disagree; Indian red is indeed an opaque colour "if left unadulterated" (Stone, pt.II) with excellent covering power (ref my earlier comment about the Midland 'brown ' livery); the pigments are excellent at scattering light giving a flat, even coverage.

 

However, Indian Red is made transparent with the addition of linseed oil as a vehicle, and guess which vehicle the railway companies used for their top coats in the pre-Grouping period because it had the best finishing properties?

 

For railway use raw linseed was only imported from the Baltic and Black seas - Indian oil was then considered inferior due to the presence of too much stearine. For the decorated parts of locos and carriages cold-drawn oil (crushed, ground and extracted without heat) was used and only considered pure if pale, perfectly transparent, sweet but tasteless (!) viscous and free from smell. Boiled oil was only used as a vehicle for roofs and other non-pretty areas of paintwork.

 

There's loads of this stuff by Stone such as the preparation and properties of the various paint pigments used by the companies, the vehicles (fixed and volatile oils), chemical tests, durability, driers, adulterants, varnishes, etc.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Buckjumper

[Buckjumper]

It's very interesting to compare the colour of the frames in the photo of Chris Wesson's 3245 in Miss P's link in the OP with a photo of the same model after it has passed through the hands of Martyn Welch (MRJ 165 p.80). Printer's interpretations et al notwithstanding, the final colour is closer to the colour of the frames of No.40 in the painting Mike posted (when seen on my slightly warm coloured monitor).

[Craigw]

The other interesting thing with that drawing/ painting is that it shows the springs in black, where as the majority of models have them painted the frame colour. Any thoughts on that?

 

Craig w