Indian Red revisited

[Ravenser]

It's a pleasant colour and suits the stock, but I'm not sure it helps in this instance as NSWGR Deep Indian Red could be a completely different shade to that used by the GWR.

 

buckjumper

Very interesting and useful photos of the NSWGR carriages! Do you have any idea as to what the varnish was they used? Copal was the best quality and used extensively on carriages in that period, but unfortunately darkens considerably with age whether stored inside or out.

 

asmay

Many railways in the colonies painted carriages and wagons in "Indian red" with NSWGR being one example. (The shades almost certainy differed. The NSWGR shade is almost maroon whilst the shade used in Western Australia was much more red/brown - I have a chip)

 

 

I'm not a GWR expert , but I know a bit about the NSWGR and I would be very cautious about easily equating NSWGR Indian red or "Tuscan"

with GWR Indian Red, especially given the date of the photos linked to.

 

From direct personal observation , "red" on the NSWGR could vary substantially :

 

Exhibit 1: taken at Hornsby , late 1979. Film: Orwochrome transparency:

 

 

Here I have to add a quick bit of NSWGR livery/corporate history . In 1972, the Railways Dept (NSWGR) and the Dept of Govt Transport (the Government buses) were merged, along with the recently nationalised Sydney Ferries Ltd , to form the NSW Passenger Transport Commission. That promptly adopted a pale blue/white livery for all modes of transport, replacing the various traditional liveries of various forms of transport: note the carriage nearest the camera. From late 1976, the railways reverted to red, and from I think 1980 the Railways were again separate as the State Rail Authority of NSW.

 

The later red , from 1977 onward - certainly as newly applied in the early 1980s - I remember as very much a dark maroon , perhaps quite close to LMS red

 

On the same day I clearly remember a long rate of similar suburban electric coaches further north alongside the car sheds - they were rather faded , carried the old 1960s livery state crest of arms on the side (faded largely to white) and I remember them being faded to an orangy shade , a bit like that of the self coloured plastic Triang used for their "Sydney Suburban" models in the early 60s (See Pat Hammond's Triang Railways p182 for reference - even that was issued in two shades of plastic, which may be close to new/faded pre 1972 red)

 

Even in the rake shown, there are two shades of red visible (and it will be very obvious that the NSWGR didn't believe in the concept of a multiple unit: trains were made up with a suitable number of compatible coaches, with an appropriate number of driving trailers, motors and intermediate trailers...)

 

Exhibit 2: taken on the ZigZag railway, 1980, again colour transparency, showing Zig Zag box and the Main Western line of the NSWGR below.

 

 

The coach below belongs to the Zig Zag preservationists , and was presumably painted before 1972, rather than after 1976

 

A book I have , "Under the Wires" , Train Hobby Publications Sudfield (Vic) 2004, shows clearly in many shots two shades of NSWGR red: an early lighter shade , and a later dark maroon. In some shots the early red seems almost as light as signal red but a lot duller

 

Given all this, I would be extremely cautious about hazarding any guess as to the shade of GW Indian Red in the Edwardian period based on presumed analogies with NSWGR Indian Red or Tuscan red. To my eye 1980s Tuscan on diesels could have a distinct brownish tinge , though that may have been desert muck....

Edited December 15, 2012 by Ravenser

[Craigw]

"I'm not a GWR expert , but I know a bit about the NSWGR and I would be very cautious about easily equating NSWGR Indian red or "Tuscan""

 

Ravenser,

 

Indian red and tuscan are two different colours. Tuscan, as in the Tuscan and Russet scheme was Venetian red, which is a far brighter and clearer red than Indian red. The final photos I linked to are of a carriage section that was built in 1905 for the 50 year celebrations. It was presented to the Commissioner and after the presentations it was passed to the Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences. On balance, it seems likely that NSWR stock was being painted Indian red around 1900 and was painted T&R from 1919. The only reason I mentioned Indian red in the first place is because the colour gives some "starting point" for deciding what Indian red actually is. On my understanding Indian red is a colour that does tend towards a purple hue and all the mixing info I have seen suggests that. Someone has said that GWR frames were painted Indian red pre 1906, but I would like to see a contemporary source that uses that name. The locomotive article on the GWR modelling site only says red brown while it says Chrome green for the green - so was it Indian red or red brown?

 

Craig W

[asmay2002]

The locomotive article on the GWR modelling site only says red brown while it says Chrome green for the green - so was it Indian red or red brown?

 

I think the problem here is that Indian red is a red brown so both descirptions could be correct rather than contradictory.

 

In my own search to match a very old chip of West Australian "Indian red" to a modern paint I found that the closest match was to a tube of Windsor and Newton Oil paint labelled "Indian red".

 

http://www.winsornewton.com/products/oil-colours/artists-oil-colour/colour-chart/indian-red/

 

Certainly my eyes couldn't distinguish the two.

[buffalo]

 

 

The other interesting thing with that drawing/ painting is that it shows the springs in black, where as the majority of models have them painted the frame colour. Any thoughts on that?

Well spotted. My initial thought is that this could be part of the 1903ish changes which saw the adoption of single panels on the tenders. It would fit with a couple of other photos of this livery, but will need further checking. Red springs are, I think, correct for earlier forms of the livery. It's probably worth pointing out that although the overall livery was reasonably constant from 1881-1906, there are perhaps five minor detail variants known during that time.

 

...Someone has said that GWR frames were painted Indian red pre 1906, but I would like to see a contemporary source that uses that name. The locomotive article on the GWR modelling site only says red brown while it says Chrome green for the green - so was it Indian red or red brown?

It's not a case of "someone has said", there's a quite substantial literature on the subject. In any case, you've already asked this and I thought I had answered it in my post #16. Did you read it? If not, I'll repeat that there are multiple contemporary, near-contemporary and later sources, including those from Swindon drawing office, stores lists etc, using the terms "indian red", "red-brown", "purple brown" and even "venetian red".

As others have already pointed out, they are all bauxite haematite based colours that may be produced by small variations in the mix and may vary significantly according to varnishing, age, weathering, ambient light, etc.

Whilst there is a broad and long-term agreement about what we mean by indian red, or indeed any of these other terms, I'm at a complete loss to see why this off topic discussion of shades used in Australia helps our understanding of what happened at Swindon and Wolverhampton between 1881 and 1906.

Nick

 

edit: did I really say bauxite

Edited September 18, 2013 by buffalo

[Craigw]

Nick,

 

Colour is not off topic, especially when trying to work out what a colour looks like. The NSWGR was a colonial railway and was built and staffed by people who had backgrounds in the LNWR and GWR in particular. Before I changed over to modelling the GWR I did a great deal of research on the NSWGR in the 19th Century going through tender documents, registers and also looking at the importation of materials including dry materials for paint - all of which were usually purchased from the UK. Considering the backgrounds of the staff and the influence that they carried over it would certainly be worth looking at contemporary sources - even from other countries. Indian Red, Purple Brown and Venetian Red are all different colours so if someone says "red brown" then it is a very real possibility they mean a different colour. Find a book on 19th century painting and look at the mixing colours. While I model the mid 1920s GWR, I have an interest in the earlier period (I also have a River class kit to do battle with at some point) and I am curious as to what colour was used as many of the models look far to brown (to me) if Indian red was the colour used.

 

Craig W

[brian777999]

I have mixed my own colours in cellulose for years and David Jenkinson once gave me the compliment of saying I was able to look at a colour and know its composition. I should add I could not mix crimson lake.

 

Well, nice to know somebody else had trouble ! I spent weeks trying to mix my own before giving up and buying Phoenix Precision crimson lake from the UK.

[coachmann]

I cannot help feeling people get bogged down with names of colours. Do not attach to much importance on names, as these varied over the years as witness what happened in more recent times when the left-wing British Railways Executive attached labels of its own in an attempt to avoid 'Big Four' company loyalties, but created confusion!

 

It is easier to understand colours if we understand what the old railway companies were doing. They were applying paint to prevent metal rusting and wood rotting. Without going into detail, there were paints available that did this job very well. When it came to brownish-red paintwork below the running plate, what the companies did was apply the basic protective paint then add an outer decorative colour that was basically the same paint but with another colour added to make it look more attractive. Some companies applied it as a base for dark red (ie: crimson lake or other variants). Wood required its own protective paint, which happened to be grey because of its content, and so it had to be covered with an appropriate undercoat to suit the final finishing colour. All this is off the top of my head, but fuller information is available in railway books.

[The Stationmaster]

The NSWGR was a colonial railway and was built and staffed by people who had backgrounds in the LNWR and GWR in particular.

Craig W

 

Just to add a touch of OT levity I actually sort of maintained that 'tradition' - having knocked up just over a quarter of a century of my 'big railway' career on the Western I spent some of my post big railway occasional employment working on contract for the passenger operating successor of NSWGR. (And found that colour can render in a slightly different way when photographed in Australian light conditions.)

 

And I can't even remember the names of the modern colours we picked out for some of the re-liveried Mk1 coaches for GW150 but it was quite interesting to be offered a choice of 7 different 'chocolates' & 'creams' and to be told I had picked the ones that had been selected as the closest match. Colour is a matter of perception and colour memory works in different ways for different people - especially if you've never seen the original colours.

[asmay2002]

.

I'm at a complete loss to see why this off topic discussion of shades used in Australia helps our understanding of what happened at Swindon and Wolverhampton between 1881 and 1906.

 

Because before WW1 it was all one empire staffed by people who moved around with a common understanding of what they were talking about. Before Modern synthetic pigments there was much much less variety of paint to choose from anyway and as we have already identified the source of the actual pigment useda cross the empire was in India not Swindon. Many old British practices persisted in the colonies long after they had been abandoned in the UK and there are lessons to be learned by taking the wider view. .

Edited December 16, 2012 by asmay2002

[buffalo]

Andy, I don't disagree with much of that, except that the same pigments could be mixed in variety of ways to produce a wide range of red-browns and the mixes of interest here were those made at Swindon and Wolverhampton. Unless someone can come up with more specific evidence of, for example, a Swindon paint mixer moving to an Australian company, all this general talk of 'the empire' and 'old British practices' advances us no further than saying there was a broad and widespread agreement on the meaning of a particular colour name. That, I would have thought, was obvious. After all, there is no certainty that the mixes used at GWR works were always the same or remained consistent throughout the period.

 

Getting back to Mike's painting, there is another feature, apart from the springs, that distinguishes the livery from earlier examples. The sides of the splashers are green, not red. This is usually said to have been introduced with the 1906 livery, but had also be seen previously, albeit with a different green and brown frames, on the pre-1894 Wolverhampton liveries. This "1903 variant" is beginning to look quite distinct.

 

Nick

[Miss Prism]

A recent and well know user of Indian Red is the Isle of Man Railway on its 2-4-0 Tanks (but not the coaches).

 

This flickr pic is quite useful I think, if only to provide a comparison with the brighter red of the coaches:

 

No.13 'Kissack' at Douglas, Isle of Man. by Marra Man, on Flickr

[Miss Prism]

It's very interesting to compare the colour of the frames in the photo of Chris Wesson's 3245 in Miss P's link in the OP with a photo of the same model after it has passed through the hands of Martyn Welch (MRJ 165 p.80). Printer's interpretations et al notwithstanding, the final colour is closer to the colour of the frames of No.40 in the painting Mike posted (when seen on my slightly warm coloured monitor).

 

Thanks very much for this, BJ. I think it sums up the dilemma gwr.org.uk has in trying to portray colours without resorting to words or terms, which are sometimes less than useful. Whilst nerds like us enjoy the academic historical speculation, all the average website punter wants is to see a on-screen colour or a range of colours to try and match to.

 

Ideally of course, I should be insisting whenever the next 7mm masterpiece appears from the 7mm mafia on two picture versions - the 'before Welching' and the 'after Welching'...

[knobhead]

In the November 1964 issue of Model Railway News there's an article, by Theo Horn, called "The Vintage Years" This era started, according to Mr. Horn, in 1901 with Basset-Lowke's Black Prince. Eventhough these early models were pretty crude, the colours used were exactly right (Theo Horn was around in 1901) As I understand it, the use of correct colours included their GWR models. Any, still existing, Bassett-Lowke models in mint condition of this period might shed some further light on the subject of Indian Red.

 

Regards,

 

Stefan

[Miss Prism]

The frame colour on Bachmann's fictional City of London (sorry, can't hotlink) seems far too bright, and redolent of the 'incorrect' bright mid-bauxite 1960 repaint of City of Truro, but Bachmann's photography always seem a bit lurid. RMweb pictures of Bachmann's City of Truro frame colour vary, but here's one of the better ones:

 

 

A couple of prototype City of Truro frame colour pics:

 

(licenced under Freefoto Creative Commons)

 

(licenced under Freefoto Creative Commons)

[coachmann]

Miss Prisms images are interesting and highlight a particular point. We know black is black but if it isnt on a photo then the whole image is over exposed. We know GWR and BR loco green is darkish so when it looks brigher, as on Miss P's pictures, then so is the red on the frames. Taking the shot of the return crank, the camera will have exposed this as a mid-grey tone, but seeing as the red is darker than mid grey, it comes out lighter than it actually is. The answer is to consider the green and the red as darker than in the images and you won't be far off realizing the real colour.

Edited December 16, 2012 by coachmann

[buffalo]

Another interesting point highlighted by Miss P's CoT prototype photos is both the different appearance and differential 'weathering' depending on the nature and finish of the underlying metal and the subsequent cleaning regime. The relatively thin and very smooth sheet material of the splashers have a bright, glossy and well-polished finish, as does the machined finish of the crank. The frame plate, on the other hand, is much darker presumably from the originally coarser surface of the plate and the accumulated dirt and frequent application of an oily rag in cleaning. Perhaps the frames have not been repainted as recently as the other parts?

 

Comparison with the model photo also illustrates the difficulting in reproducing ¹/₈" lining in a convincing way on an rtr model. The orange lining of the frames looks quite wrong to me. Mind you, the black edging on the prototype looks rather less than the ⁷/_⁸" width specified in GWW, or the ³/₄" shown on the information produced by Swindon Paint Shop for the guidance for modellers in 1954, and reproduced at the back of Russell vol 2.

 

Nick

Edited December 16, 2012 by buffalo

[Miss Prism]

Presumably, however, No 100 William Dean and some at least of the early Atlantics, Albion, Magnet, etc. may have carried a red framed livery?

That would seem to be the case. Here's what the Railway Magazine published in its January 1905 issue:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8382253907/in/set-72157629736491456/

 

Whilst it is red-framed, and thus aligns with Mike's early 1906 picture of No 40 (except that No 40 shows a transitional appearance of black springs), it does not carry the '1903' change to green splashers or single tender panel.

 

 

[buffalo]

Very interesting, Miss P. RCTS part 8 has pictures of both No 100 Dean, built Feb 1902 but photographed once named, so June-November 1902, and No 98 Ernest Cunard, built March 1903. No 100 has a monogrammed tender which also appears to have polished whatsits¹. No 98 has has GREAT crest WESTERN on the tender, again with polished whatsits. In both cases, the splasher sides appear to painted in the same colour as the boiler and cab, both being much lighter than the tone of the frames.

 

Strange, then, that the Railway Magazine painting of Albion, built later than these two in December 1903, should have red splasher sides and monogrammed tender with red whatsits and black springs. Can we trust it? Perhaps the artist made sketches of the real loco but relied on other sources when painting the colours? Whilst the attention to detail in the painting of No 40 gives me some confidence in the accuracy of the colour rendition, I'm not so convinced by this painting of Albion. For example, note the lack of colour on the frames in front of the cylinders or on the bogie side frames.

 

The RCTS photos, and other examples such as the as built photo of CoT in Russell vol 2, might suggest that the '1903' livery is really the final result of a 1902-4 transitional phase in which newly built locos might be coupled with recently painted but as yet unused tenders in the earlier style.

 

Nick

 

Note 1: For those not following the related discussion in Wenlock's blog, these are the large round pieces through which the outer spring hangers pass and provide part of the fixed mounting on the frames. The correct term escapes me...

[Miss Prism]

Can we trust it? Perhaps the artist made sketches of the real loco but relied on other sources when painting the colours?

 

That is possible, Nick, but one could say that about other contemporary colour renditions, such as Mike's pic of No 40. I think we can't trust much at all for a variety of reasons (especially red whatsits!). What we seem to be looking at is a bunch of transitional/experimental livery changes on both locos and tenders taking place from 1902 to early 1906, which were probably not all applied consistently to locos being painted, and which were not applied to all locos being painted or repainted in that era.

 

I'm prepared to believe Churchward didn't give two hoots about loco colour schemes, and left such trifling cosmetic matters entirely to the creative and perhaps equally revolutionary whims of whoever was running the paint shop at the time.

[buffalo]

...What we seem to be looking at is a bunch of transitional/experimental livery changes on both locos and tenders taking place from 1902 to early 1906, which were probably not all applied consistently to locos being painted, and which were not applied to all locos being painted or repainted in that era...

I agree, and you're probably right to extend the period to 1906. Just another example, No 179 Magnet, built April 1905 had a monogrammed tender whilst No 182 (later to be Lalla Rookh) was built two months later and equipped with a GREAT crest WESTERN tender (photos of both in as built condition in Russell vol 2).

 

I'm prepared to believe Churchward didn't give two hoots about loco colour schemes, and left such trifling cosmetic matters entirely to the creative and perhaps equally revolutionary whims of whoever was running the paint shop at the time.

Yes, Holcroft's comment, though concerning line rather than colour, may support this:

 

Critics of Churchward had for long railed against the angular lines of his standard engines, whilst his friends tried to persuade him to pay some attention to aesthetics, but he held out against them and seemed to take a pride in a functional outlook while the liking for American practices lasted.

He goes on to recount, with some pride, how he was responsible for drawing up the original designs for the curved drops in the running plate. Unfortunately, he says little about colour, only mentioning the change from red-brown to black frames on County tanks in 1906.

 

Nick

Edited August 6, 2013 by buffalo

[The Stationmaster]

That is possible, Nick, but one could say that about other contemporary colour renditions, such as Mike's pic of No 40. I think we can't trust much at all for a variety of reasons (especially red whatsits!). What we seem to be looking at is a bunch of transitional/experimental livery changes on both locos and tenders taking place from 1902 to early 1906, which were probably not all applied consistently to locos being painted, and which were not applied to all locos being painted or repainted in that era.

 

I'm prepared to believe Churchward didn't give two hoots about loco colour schemes, and left such trifling cosmetic matters entirely to the creative and perhaps equally revolutionary whims of whoever was running the paint shop at the time.

Actually Churchward closed the loco paintshop at Swindon - the painting was then done in the main factory in order to save time (and, no doubt, money)

 

Incidentally as far as colour is concerned contemporaneous postcards can be quite interesting sources.  In some cases the colouring is obviously either a flight of fancy or a result of the process used but sometimes things can be quite consistent over a variety of media and publishers/printers.

 

Edit to correct typo

Edited August 7, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[MarkAustin]

That would seem to be the case. Here's what the Railway Magazine published in its January 1905 issue:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8382253907/in/set-72157629736491456/

 

Whilst it is red-framed, and thus aligns with Mike's early 1906 picture of No 40 (except that No 40 shows a transitional appearance of black springs), it does not carry the '1903' change to green splashers or single tender panel.

Be careful of this type of early colour pictures. Many of them are colourised B&W photographs, done by an artist with no necessary knowledge of railways, working from verbal instructions, e.g. green body, red underframe etc etc.

Edited August 7, 2013 by MarkAustin

[buffalo]

Be careful of this type of early colour pictures. Many of them are colourised B&W photographs, done by an artist with no necessary knowledge of railways, working from verbal instructions, e.g. green body, red underframe etc etc.

I find it difficult to believe that you looked at the painting in Miss P's link or, indeed, that of No 40 on the previous page. These are certainly not colourised photos done by an ignorant artist. They are detailed technical drawings done by someone with a clear understanding of what they were drawing, and coloured to a good representation of the liveries of the time, not simply "green" or "red". I'm fairly certain that they are based on official photographs as these two examples show the two poses most commonly used at Swindon at this time, both for 'works grey' and normal livery record photos. The picture of Albion looks to be based on the photo of this loco in works grey reproduced as fig 97 in Russell vol 2. Whilst I haven't seen an original for the painting of No 40, it is very close in all respects to the photo of the similar loco No 190 in fig 101 of the same volume.

 

Given the very clear correspondence between the colours used in these pictures and our, albeit variable, knowledge of contemporary liveries, it is also clear that the colouring was done to very detailed specifications. However, if I am right that these are based largely on works grey photos, there is always the possibility that we are seeing a 'standard specification' and not necessarily the specific livery that the individual loco was painted in.

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

I find it difficult to believe that you looked at the painting in Miss P's link or, indeed, that of No 40 on the previous page. These are certainly not colourised photos done by an ignorant artist. They are detailed technical drawings done by someone with a clear understanding of what they were drawing, and coloured to a good representation of the liveries of the time, not simply "green" or "red". I'm fairly certain that they are based on official photographs as these two examples show the two poses most commonly used at Swindon at this time, both for 'works grey' and normal livery record photos. The picture of Albion looks to be based on the photo of this loco in works grey reproduced as fig 97 in Russell vol 2. Whilst I haven't seen an original for the painting of No 40, it is very close in all respects to the photo of the similar loco No 190 in fig 101 of the same volume.

 

Given the very clear correspondence between the colours used in these pictures and our, albeit variable, knowledge of contemporary liveries, it is also clear that the colouring was done to very detailed specifications. However, if I am right that these are based largely on works grey photos, there is always the possibility that we are seeing a 'standard specification' and not necessarily the specific livery that the individual loco was painted in.

 

Nick

I am reasonably sure that the painting of Albion isn't of 'Albion' but was based on an original photo of another loco which had been 'renumbered & renamed' in the photographic studio for use as a postcard or whatever.  

 

The view below is taken from a postcard of unknown origin and in slightly poor shape but it was posted, at Paddington (!), but then the rest of the postmark gets really interesting as it is clearly timed & dated '5PM FE 9 05'.  NOTE CORRECTED TEXT HERE - Having had further delve through the cards I realise I missed the bl**din' obvious and can now confirm that the picture is in fact a view of No.98 - the original obviously being taken before it received a name.  Apologies for previous thoughts on the origin of the picture.  As for 171- it ran as a 4-4-2 until 1907!  It is incidentally the same picture as the one that appears in Russell's book and the 'doctored' name and numberplates are quite visible in that view too.

 

 

Just for amusement I have included a picture of No.100 in its early days - apart from the scene being Westbourne Park I've no other information about it, I found the photo in a secondhand book I bought years ago.  The tender lining shows reasonably well on the original but note the wheelbosses/axle ends - polished not painted.

 

 

Incidentally I'll have another check through my 'Star' ppostcards to see if I can find one resembling the painting of No.40 but I don't recall one.  And as for  colour how about a pic of 'The Great Bear' (well that's what it says - there's a vague resemblance!) running along a well know coastal stretch of railway with stock in GWR claret livery)?

Edited August 7, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Miss Prism]

You're in gloriously mischievous mood, this morning, MIke!