Are there any trespass laws on the SNCF.....?

[the goathland]

I have been watching some u tube video of various SNCF trains and one thing that strikes me is some photographers seem to get very close to the track and not on stations either, so I was wondering what laws there were about trespass, I note that some drivers sound very friendly to photographers with the tunes they play on the two tone horn !!    ..........................any answers would be appreciated.

[Ashcombe]

Suggest you contact Olddudders - he lives there!

[Oldddudders]

Don't implicate me! I know nothing, but would expect to live by the same code I used as a trainspotter in Blighty in the early '60s - if there's a fence, stay on the right side of it.

[trisonic]

No fences over here but there are Trespass laws.....Lord knows how they figure it out. Can you imagine trying to fence in the railroads in this country?

 

Best, Pete.

[roundhouse]

In the USA, everything railroad is 'posted' if I am correct in my understanding.. i.e. no fence but post markers which draw a virtualk line that you shouldn't cross.

 

I remember parking on the public road opposite the loco depot at Centennial yard in Fort Worth a few years ago and was told by UP security that I was trespassing - I can only presume they drew a straight line between posts with 'no trespassing' on them despite the road curvered between the posts!

 

Luckily they didnt do any more about it.

[AngryMeerkat]

As I remember from working there a lot - everything is illegal unless a law is passed to say you CAN do it. I do however remember that roads and pavements are VERY close to the railway lines with few 'solid' fences, instead most fences seem to be low level and the mesh variety. Certainly on the south coast that is true.

 

Mark

[SNCF stephen]

I have seen a fair few videos that are close to the line in remote places. I would suggest that because these locations are remote that they are less likely to get caught. I have found several locations where you can get close to the line but I never actually went that close because there were other alternatives that were safer and without doubt legal. 

 

One thing I have noticed is that photographers seem to walk on the lesser used tracks at preserved railways quite often. Further to that I noticed a group of kids go and ask the station master at the local station if they could cross over the goods shed sidings to, presumably, take a short.

[jamie92208]

In the USA, everything railroad is 'posted' if I am correct in my understanding.. i.e. no fence but post markers which draw a virtualk line that you shouldn't cross.

 

I remember parking on the public road opposite the loco depot at Centennial yard in Fort Worth a few years ago and was told by UP security that I was trespassing - I can only presume they drew a straight line between posts with 'no trespassing' on them despite the road curvered between the posts!

 

Luckily they didnt do any more about it.

On a recent visit to North Platte we were told by the young lady at the vviewing tower that all the land on the yard side of teh access road belonged to UP so we were trespassing if we parked on the verge but that the road was publuc and we could park on the opposite verge.

 

 

There were no signs but I believe that the UP Police patrol the area.

 

Jamie

[JeffP]

Not sure about France this century, but in the late 20th century, only TGV lines were fenced.

I was only ever refused a visit to a shed at two places: Paris la Chapelle, unsurprisingly, and Lyon Venissieux. No reason given at Venissieaux, but having walked THROUGH the shed to find the offices to ask, I simply took a detour out.

At La Chapelle the uniformed guard on the gate explained I needed a permit. However, at Villeneuve, a rough suburb south of Paris and probably France's largest depot, I turned up on a sunday and was simply told, "If the railway police see you, I haven't, OK?"

 

At most places I got guided tours, some even moving locos for me to photograph, or raising pantographs, putting lights on etc.

My quickest visit was Chambery: I had 50 minutes between trains if I was to make Modane that day, so walked off the end of the platform, through the carriage sidings, and did a quick tour round the depot. I was asked once what I was doing, but when the guy saw I was English and taking photos, he lost interest.

 

Finally, crossing lines. I had walked off Strasbourg station and round to the depot. I got the usual guided tour, but it ened far out from the depot at a boarded crossing to the station, over about 20 overhead electrified lines. My guide indicated my way back, and I asked about crossing the lines, was it ok?

his response was, "But you have eyes, you can see, no?"

 

Photography right next to a main line seems to be the norm, the drivers sound their horn if you are TOO close.

 

Worst visit was to Orleans les Aubrais. Another half run, half walk from the station, to find the huge depot closed and silent, with only one shunter to show for my exercise. Similar at Trabes, but that shed was only just next to the station.

[Fat Controller]

If planning to photograph things on a station, then seek out a member of staff and advise them; even friends who work on SNCF do this. SUGE, the people who act as a sort of BTP, are armed and agressive, and are not adverse to using force- they've even been known to beat up non-uniformed SNCF personnel who upset them. Strangely, they never seem to be evident when SNCF staff have been violently attacked in the course of their duties.

'Trespass' doesn't seem to exist in France, unless there is signage indicating restricted access; we quite often have ramblers/ VTT riders and others passing through the vines, and have often wandered through other peoples' fields.

The signs to watch out for, restricting access, are:-

'Access Interdit'

'Access Formalment Interdit'- this is the one where they might prosecute/beat you up.

I agree about the absence of fences; this doesn't just apply to railways, but all sorts of other locations, such as the edges of roads, where you might find them in the UK. The main fenced-in areas are the LGVs and Autoroutes, along with private gardens and business premises. SNCF has now started to fence other areas where there have been frequent accidents with people crossing the line; the line from Marseilles to Vingtmille is a particularily problematic one, especially around St Raphael.

[Pacific231G]

I don't think there's a general law of trespass in France but there are specific regulations for areas such as ports and railways both of which may be unfenced. The fact there may be no fences beyond station limits doesn't make railway land open but there does seem to be a degree of common sense about it. The last time I was passing Romorantin on the Blanc Argent I asked in the station if it was OK to take a look at the lines main depot opposite and they were quite happy to say yes just warning me to be careful. 

 

I was once faced with the local gendarmes after walking for about a kilometre along a long disused, partly dismantled, but not yet legally declassée  (abandoned) line  near Saumur. They were happy enough when I explained that I was interested in the history of this former Ouest main line and no I wasn't going to continue onto the still (barely) open goods line a couple of hundred yards further on. I suspect that my presence had been reported by somebody living in one of the former crossing keeper's cottages near where I'd parked my car.  Some French people, especially in the countryside, can be real curtain twitching busybodies and I suspect the two gendarmes thought their time had been wasted though not by me.   

 

The thing you do have to be aware of is Vigipirate. I've not personally encountered SUGE, except for seeing them at main terminals, but at times of heightened security things do get a lot touchier and even photographing on stations which is supposed to be legal in public areas (but not on the Paris Metro apparently) may be forbidden. Usually, being polite and respectful, telling people what you're doing and leaving if asked is fine.

 

Things can get a lot more complicated if you're doing anything that looks professional such as filming using a tripod or with any sort of crew. I've still got the five page permis from the Ville de Paris I needed to do some filming in the streets of Paris a few years ago for a BBC programme . It listed the arondissements I had permission to film in and though I'd assumed it a formality was asked several times each day to produce it for some jobsworth who'd then waste five minutes of valuable daylight reading it very slowly- usually when we'd just set up a sequence. I only had a documentary crew of three plus a reporter with almost no lighting so it wasn't exactly Hollywood. The strange thing was that I had a separate permit to  film on the Metro and though,  given Paris traffic, we left the van at the hotel and used the Metro to move ourselves and our gear around the city, in three days nobody from RATP ever asked to see it. The only time I needed the RATP permit was to reassure a ticket agent that it was OK for him to be filmed selling our (deaf) reporter a ticket.

[HeavyDuty]

In the USA, everything railroad is 'posted' if I am correct in my understanding.. i.e. no fence but post markers which draw a virtualk line that you shouldn't cross.

 

I remember parking on the public road opposite the loco depot at Centennial yard in Fort Worth a few years ago and was told by UP security that I was trespassing - I can only presume they drew a straight line between posts with 'no trespassing' on them despite the road curvered between the posts!

 

Luckily they didnt do any more about it.

 

Typical bluff by UP police.  They have a terrible reputation for trying to strongarm people where they have no jurisdiction.  I had a similar run-in with one of their officers trying to run me off public property, you should have seen his goldfish imitation when I badged him back and asked if he minded if I called for backup.

 

As we say here, you can't spell "stupid" without UP.

[kintbury jon]

I can echo Jeff's comments.  Depot staff were friendly, it was more relaxed in the provinces but even then, depots like Villeneuve were as relaxed as anywhere.  I visited over 20 depots in the 1990's aged around (15-18) and I was either given a guided tour or told to 'watch the tracks'.

 

Staff were fascinated why I was interested in seeing their trains.  During a quick visit to Villeneuve to see my last CC1100 class (1101), I asked one of the staff whether 1101 was there (whilst standing by another of the class), they couldn't understand why I wanted to see 1101 when it looked the same as the one we were next to!

 

I'd love to go back to a depot at some point........happy memories.

[jamie92208]

I can echo that about SNCF staff.  I was allowed to go round many depots except Paris La Chappelle. Including Orleans, Beziers, Archeres, Villeneuve and Parris Sud Ouest.  My sons were allowed and envcouraged to drive eelctric locos, including a brand new Sybic, at Thionville.   At Orleans when I went round I wasn't allowed to leave until I'd seen their steam engine which turned out to be 231K8 in the wagon repair shop.  The shed doors were opened and 2 diesel shunters moved so that I could get a photo.  Nothing but politeness and hospitality.

 

Jamie

[kintbury jon]

Hospitality really sums it up.  At Villeneuve, a driver asked me whether I wanted a lift back to Paris on BB7392 light engine.  One never turns down an offer like that, I was more shocked (and delighted) when he offered me the controls for about half a mile towards Gare de Lyon.

[bluedepot]

interesting!

 

so it's worth asking depot staff if you can look round then????

 

if at a station, would you always ask if you can take photos, or just do it and see what happens????

 

 

tim

[Madcaravanner]

interesting!

 

so it's worth asking depot staff if you can look round then????

 

if at a station, would you always ask if you can take photos, or just do it and see what happens????

 

 

tim

I KNOW this sounds really daft but the more you try (and fail ) to speak French the more you will get admiration and help 

 

My French is passable but at time I really dip into Franglaise on purpose you'd be surprised at what this does ( had loads of Freebies in cafés and shops that way)

[JeffP]

My advice nowadays would be:

ALWAYS ask permission to photograph trains at stations. Expect it granted, but with rules like, stay at the ends of platforms so as not to be in the way, (larger stations), and don't cross the lines except by the passage.(Which just might be a boarded crossing anyway).

 

At depots, again ask. Seek out the Chef du depot, and ask him, tell him it's to take photos for a private collection. Access can range from a guided tour, though "I haven't seen you", to: only take photos from here without entering the depot, or just flat refusal.

 

I've spent quite a few hours at Miramas between Marseille and Nimes/Avignon, a busy junction which used often to have three trains arriving at once, and never a time with more than five minutes without a train, plus a nice depot and preserved museum locos. The staff there were quite amused at my folding chair down the platform, and my backpack with my food and drinks.

 

For a unique view of that area, and one of the best muusic videos I've ever seen, (from a clever point of view), see here:

 

Michel Gondry

[the goathland]

Thanks for all your reply's, I am going to France later this year, Paris for a couple of days and then stay near Cannes at Theoule sur Mer, where the viaduct straddles the marina, but hope to go down the Cornice de l' Esterel for the few by now presumably, loco hauled / push pulls TER's, I saw a car train hauled by a DBS class 66 last year but was unable to photograph it, not sure if they were new cars or a motorail service.              Whilst in Paris I would like to have photo session at St Lazare, does any one know how they are on photography there, again to get the loco hauled / push pulls ?............John

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks for all your reply's, I am going to France later this year, Paris for a couple of days and then stay near Cannes at Theoule sur Mer, where the viaduct straddles the marina, but hope to go down the Cornice de l' Esterel for the few by now presumably, loco hauled / push pulls TER's, I saw a car train hauled by a DBS class 66 last year but was unable to photograph it, not sure if they were new cars or a motorail service.              Whilst in Paris I would like to have photo session at St Lazare, does any one know how they are on photography there, again to get the loco hauled / push pulls ?............John

 

Advice from Jeff is sound. At the larger stations, you really do need to ask permission. Vigipirate is in operation at the moment (probably due to Mali situation) so the security guys are a bit touchy. In some cases, they have chucked people off even though they had a permit!

If loco-hauled push pulls is your thing, I would suggest going out from the main terminals to the inner suburbs. Pont-Cardinet (1st station out of St Lazare) is good, although watch for time of day and therefore direction of sun. Not sure which stations to suggest on the other lines.

[EddieB]

Thanks for all your reply's, I am going to France later this year, Paris for a couple of days and then stay near Cannes at Theoule sur Mer, where the viaduct straddles the marina, but hope to go down the Cornice de l' Esterel for the few by now presumably, loco hauled / push pulls TER's, I saw a car train hauled by a DBS class 66 last year but was unable to photograph it, not sure if they were new cars or a motorail service.              Whilst in Paris I would like to have photo session at St Lazare, does any one know how they are on photography there, again to get the loco hauled / push pulls ?............John

From what I remember (a few years ago, so hopefully someone can update), the locomotive is on the Paris end of the push-pulls at St. Lazare.  That means that aside from shots of trains arriving or departing, any detail shots of locomotives would need to be taken from the concourse area, where you're more likely to get stopped or moved on.  If heading out, as recommended by Joseph, Nanterre-Université used to have a stabling point for RATP locomotives visible from its station platforms, and probably still does.

[Happy Hippo]

Although not French, it was almost................

 

Many years ago I was in the Belgian Ardennes, and we were taken, by the local regimental training officer ( a Belgian Regiment) to a number of military abseil training sites.

 

The 'baby slope' was the vertical rock wall on the northbound side of a cutting on the main line to Luxembourg!

 

I did question this choice and also asked about trespass.

 

The reply was along the lines of we have been doing it for years, the drivers know us and nobody has ever been killed or injured by a train (although a few recruits had fallen off from time to time!)

 

So we abseiled and stopped when the trains went past. The drivers invariably gave us a toot on the horn and a friendly wave.

 

Can you imagine doing that at Dawlish?

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Steve R]

From what I remember (a few years ago, so hopefully someone can update), the locomotive is on the Paris end of the push-pulls at St. Lazare.  That means that aside from shots of trains arriving or departing, any detail shots of locomotives would need to be taken from the concourse area, where you're more likely to get stopped or moved on.  If heading out, as recommended by Joseph, Nanterre-Université used to have a stabling point for RATP locomotives visible from its station platforms, and probably still does.

I can confirm from my visit at the beginning of March that the locomotive is on the Paris end of the push-pulls at St. Lazare.

 

  Whilst in Paris I would like to have photo session at St Lazare, does any one know how they are on photography there, again to get the loco hauled / push pulls ?............John

I asked if it was okay to take pictures at St Lazare (in the SNCF information centre), on a Sunday when it was quiet. I'm afraid the answer was no, but it might just depend on who you ask.

 

HTH

 

Steve R.

[samkiller42]

I was happily taking photo's when i visited France last October, without any bother from anyone. Was taking photo's at Gare du Nord, Gare De Lyon, Marseille, Latour-de-Carol, and a few other smaller stations. Going again in June, so hopefully that will be trouble free.

 

Sam

[mikeharvey22]

I can confirm from my visit at the beginning of March that the locomotive is on the Paris end of the push-pulls at St.Lazare.

 

Steve R.

Did that include the Intercite trains formed of Corail stock? Since they converted to the B6t2uxh/B6Dux driving trailers with MUX2 and BB15000s the driving trailers have been at the bufferstops. See my avatar for an example taken from the concourse at St. Lazare with permission. I usually contact the station chef before going to get permission to take photos, and keep the email to show if challenged though I never have been. The Corail driving trailers (B5uxh) are at the concourse end at Paris Gare de Lyon and Paris Bercy.

 

Mike

 

 

Edited on 8 April 2013. The multiplexing should read MUX NG not MUX2, just in case anyone notices!