MK2 Air conditioned coaches - Detail differences

[YK 50A]

Very interesting thread, particularly with the recent Bachmann announcement.

 

Quite!  I should have seen it coming, as last year I replaced all my old Airfix Mk2D's with the far from inexpensive Hornby's, purely because of the improved finish.  The tooling doesn't appear to have changed at all.  I wonder if Bachmann will give different Temperature Ltd (one large fan) and Stone-Platt (two smaller fans) underframe fittings dependent on the running number, and provide B4 bogies with hydraulic dampers.

 

I know a combination of Mk2D's and Mk2F's would be most appropriate for "somewhere near York in 1978", but I imagine the two tooling's will look like chalk and cheese on the same layout, let alone in the same rake.  I had both Hornby and Bachmann Mk1's for a short while.  It didn't look right to me at all.

 

The yahoo BR coaching stock forum which is run by Robert Carroll has a considerable amount of information. http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRCoachingStock/

 

I can thoroughly recommend the BR Loco Hauled Coaching Stock Yahoo group, a goldmine of information and helpful contributors.

 

Alun

[zigzag]

Thanks for the ECML info, looks like 2Ds were more prominent than 2Fs - which is how I remember it.

 

As said above I too worry that a Hornby/Bachmann combo may highlight strengths & weaknesses in the models.

[brushman47544]

The problem with coaching stock allocations is that they changed virtually every year as stock was cascaded due to HST deliveries.

 

In Jan 1980 the Western had the following:

 

Mk1 RBR 1644-59, 74, 1741, 5-8, 50, 2, 5, 1923-4, 44-8, 53, 4, 6

Mk2e FO 3242 - 3263

Mk2f FO 3278, 80-1, 4, 87, 3387-88, 3395-3417

Mk2d TSO 5619, 27, 41, 44, 56, 61, 77, 89, 95, 5702-4, 7-8, 17, 20-1, 25, 33-7

Mk2e TSO 5819-79

Mk2f TSO 6068-6107, 6115-33

Mk2d FK 13562, 4-6, 79

Mk2d BFK 14140, 7, 52, 59

 

Only the Cornish Riviera and Golden Hind were HST services in the West Country at this time. It must be remembered that different cross country trains came from different Regions. Manchester and Liverpool to Plymouth and Penzance trains were Midland, the Edinburgh to Plymouth was Western, Newcastle to Bristol and Cardiff trains were Eastern as were the Newcastle to Poole trains.

 

Very interesting thanks Flood. I had forgotten how relatively few Mk2ds the WR had, and whilst the Mk2e was in the majority at least I can make up a rake with the new Bachmann Mk2fs and RBR. Only four Mk2d BFKs is not a surprise though - ISTR most West of England rakes had a PV Mk2a/b/c BFK and I will use a Bachmann Mk2a BFK.

[Flood]

Andrew

 

Do yourself a favour and buy a rake of Bachmann Mk2f stock when they come out. However on a few coaches change the unit with the fans on (and the box to the fans left) and add the pressure ventilation box on the other side using old Airfix modellings and have a mixed rake of Mk2e and Mk2f stock. Then the bodies will not be out of place and the chassis parts can be weathered in to look like the rest of the chassis.

 

Most of the Mk2f stock had Inter City 70 seats, with permanent middle arm rests which meant you couldn't lie across them overnight, whereas the Mk2e stock had original Mk2 style seats. Whether these should be changed if anyone wishes to make a Mk2e is up to the individual.

 

Note: 6100 was never allocated to the Western Region it was always on the London Midland, I have changed my original listing to reflect this. This coach is one of the 8 which were out of sync with the rest of the allocations. The Western received 5981-88 from a group of coaches that otherwise went to the London Midland and 6100, 6108-14 were allocated to the London Midland and Eastern when all the stock around them went initially to the Western.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Flood

[YK 50A]

Do yourself a favour and buy a rake of Bachmann Mk2f stock when they come out. However on a few coaches change the unit with the fans on (and the box to the fans left) and add the pressure ventilation box on the other side using old Airfix modellings and have a mixed rake of Mk2e and Mk2f stock. Then the bodies will not be out of place and the chassis parts can be weathered in to look like the rest of the chassis.

 

Just glad I hadn't got round to "installing" Keen Systems on my Hornby's.  They'll be joining a no doubt saturated second hand market "as new" in due course.  I remember Mk2D's much more than Mk2F's on the East Coast, but I'll tell myself that it's my mind playing tricks on me.

[Flood]

Depending when you are modelling Alun the Eastern did originally have a lot of Mk2F coaches. In 1976 there were 19 Mk2D FO, 29 Mk2F FO; 128 Mk2D TSO, 79 Mk2F TSO; 16 Mk2D BSO, 4 Mk2F BSO. Obviously the FK and BFK stock were Mk2D but a Mk2D FK should be pretty easy to make from a Bachmann Mk2F FO (as long as you don't want those DCC lights, I'm guessing they would be a pain to work around). Even a Mk2D BSO should be pretty simple from a Mk2F BSO.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Flood

[YK 50A]

Depending when you are modelling Alun the Eastern did originally have a lot of Mk2F coaches. In 1976 there were 19 Mk2D FO, 29 Mk2F FO; 128 Mk2D TSO, 79 Mk2F TSO; 16 Mk2D BSO, 4 Mk2F BSO. Obviously the FK and BFK stock were Mk2D but a Mk2D FK should be pretty easy to make from a Bachmann Mk2F FO (as long as you don't want those DCC lights, I'm guessing they would be a pain to work around). Even a Mk2D BSO should be pretty simple from a Mk2F BSO.

 

Thanks for that.  I preordered a rake from Hatton's a few days ago and even unmodified, I know they'll be closer to the real thing than the Hornby/Airfix Mk2D's.  I've got a 1978 RCTS, 1979 Platform 5 and Michael Harris's book, and all have had a hammering since I got back from me hols - which is where I was when the announcement was made - a man on the moon moment.    To a point, it must be "my mind playing tricks on me"!

 

I'm not bothered for the DCC lights, but I am bothered about my ineptitude with a craft knife, spray gun and plastic cement!  I'm hoping there will be more useful "chatter" about creating the odd "Bachmann Mk2D" in due course.

[Flood]

I'm hoping there will be more useful "chatter" about creating the odd "Bachmann Mk2D" in due course.

I'm off to Glenn's tomorrow to work on Kirkhill and so long as I take my camera I can show you all the differences I have made to Airfix stock to make Mk2E and Mk2F coaches (we keep all the stock with the layout to ensure we never leave anything behind from an exhibition).

[YK 50A]

I'm off to Glenn's tomorrow to work on Kirkhill and so long as I take my camera I can show you all the differences I have made to Airfix stock to make Mk2E and Mk2F coaches (we keep all the stock with the layout to ensure we never leave anything behind from an exhibition).

 

That would be great, thanks!  In addition to replacing my existing air con rake, I'm tempted to do a Deltic + 8 with a Mk2A BFK.  A couple of Mk2D's in each rake would make all the difference, even if I am the only person that would notice.  Shame you're not exhibiting at York.

[BernardTPM]

The East Coast was the first line to get the air-con Mk.2s so Mk.2D there were common until HSTs came in. The bodyshells are largely the same, but the Mk.2D TSOs have both toilet windows (and opposing blank panels) on the same side, while there's one of each on Mk.2E & Mk.2F.

[Flood]

Best laid plans....blah, blah

 

As usual we ran out of time before the camera was able to be used but I will take it to Ally Pally and try to get some comparison shots there. It's not like the Bachmann air-cons are going to be in the shops over the next week so I've a bit of time to redeem myself.

[YK 50A]

Best laid plans....blah, blah

 

As usual we ran out of time before the camera was able to be used but I will take it to Ally Pally and try to get some comparison shots there. It's not like the Bachmann air-cons are going to be in the shops over the next week so I've a bit of time to redeem myself.

 

Ice Cold in Alex?  As you suggested above, I'm wondering about the feasibility of butchering some Airfix Mk2 underframes for the Stone-Platt fans and pv cabinets.  It will most certainly wait, although there would be a certain irony if Bachmann managed to get their InterCity Mk2F's out before Hornby finally release a blue/grey (Airfix) Mk2D BSO, presumably with 2 fans.

[Flood]

...although there would be a certain irony if Bachmann managed to get their InterCity Mk2F's out before Hornby finally release a blue/grey (Airfix) Mk2D BSO, presumably with 2 fans.

Sorry Alun you just fell into that one...

 

From post#8

 

"Brake Second Open

 

All Mk2d and Mk2e BSO stock have a pressure ventilation cabinet just to the left of the fourth window from the right on the m/a side, MK2f BSO stock do not have this cabinet. All Mk2d BSO stock and all the Mk2e BSO stock have Stones air con equipment with 1 small fan on the non m/a side. All Mk2f BSO stock have Temperature Ltd air con equipment with one large fan on the non m/a side."

 

 

The brake coaches only ever had one fan. The Airfix/Mainline/Dapol/Hornby BSO coaches have always been incorrect.

[YK 50A]

Sorry Alun you just fell into that one...

 

The brake coaches only ever had one fan. The Airfix/Mainline/Dapol/Hornby BSO coaches have always been incorrect.

 

Lol...  Yes, that was part of the irony.  Hornby don't have a blue/grey Mk2D BSO in the shops yet.  It was due for release in 2012, but was then put back to later this year.  I had one on pre-order until recently.  So...  Maybe Bachmann will beat Hornby to releasing a blue/grey InterCity air con Mk2 BSO, the latter a 35 year old tooling, incorrectly with a TSO/FO underframe, and 2 fans!  Capisce? 

[Flood]

As I turned off the computer last night I realised that may well be what you had meant. Nice to know that we can both have a laugh about it.

[YK 50A]

As I turned off the computer last night I realised that may well be what you had meant. Nice to know that we can both have a laugh about it.

 

I'm relying on your guidance with regard to a couple of Mk2D FK's and a Stone-Platt Mk2F FO come the day.  Would I bite the hand? 

[YK 50A]

Flood, for when you get back from The Palace.  I've been nailing down the detail differences (Mk2F/Mk2D being the most relevant to me).  I was interested in what you have used and what you would propose for the interiors of FK's and BFK's (I remember the latter more than BSO's, although clearly both were used).  Also, do you know when in their lives Mk2D's and Mk2E's got hydraulic dampers?  Pictures are inconclusive, but I'm guessing it was post sectorisation.

 

Alun

[ThaneofFife]

Flood certainly seems to knows his S**t on Aircon Mk2s!  Ive had to print off his reply - a handy reference for the future 

[ThaneofFife]

I had one on pre-order until recently.  So...  Maybe Bachmann will beat Hornby to releasing a blue/grey InterCity air con Mk2 BSO, the latter a 35 year old tooling, incorrectly with a TSO/FO underframe, and 2 fans!  Capisce? 

Me too but that order was quickly cancelled w.e.f. Sunday 10th March

[YK 50A]

Flood certainly seems to knows his S**t on Aircon Mk2s!  Ive had to print off his reply - a handy reference for the future 

 

It's printed and filed in my Michael Harris BR Mk2 coaches!

 

Me too but that order was quickly cancelled w.e.f. Sunday 10th March

 

I wonder how many times that course of action has been replicated!  I would have had more respect for Hornby if they had charged a fiver less and put their Mk2D's in the RailRoad range.  But then again, I bought a load of them and doubt I'm alone.  I see that the Triang/Hornby origin Mk1's have finally been "downgraded".

 

Alun

[Flood]

For FK and BFK interiors I still use the Lima Mk2B ones. They may well be crude by todays standards but with the Airfix tinted windows, which in my opinion have the correct amount of tint, they seem to be perfectly acceptable (to me at least).

 

I've had a look at a few photos of Mk2D, E and F this morning and found two photos on the same page of the 1992 Platform 5 Combined with 1260 (photo dated 1991) and 3400 (photo dated 1990) both carrying bogies with friction dampers instead of hydraulic dampers. To be honest I'm not surprised at all that bogie swaps between the different builds took place during subsequent works visits.

 

Photos on flickr certainly show Mk2D and Mk2E stock after 2001 with bogies with hydraulic dampers and 17167 at York in 2010 is even on a set of B5 bogies not B4. In fact I cannot find a single photo with friction dampers on air-con stock after that approximate date. Harris' book on the Mk2s states that 381 coaches from Mk2D, E and F were refurbished from 1996 by Bombardier and it may well be this refurbishment programme that resulted in a wholesale bogie change.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Flood

[BernardTPM]

While the size is just fine, the corridor partition on the Lima Mk.2B just doesn't do it for me, failing to reflect the glass and aluminium originals - it would look better in a Mk.1 (or original 1964 Mk.2 FK). One of my favourite 'modern' coach interiors and seen to good effect here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoa3OTJfWIY

[Flood]

A very valid point Bernard (and a very good film).

 

An etched kit of the later compartment interior is probably the only accurate way to go.

[YK 50A]

For FK and BFK interiors I still use the Lima Mk2B ones. They may well be crude by todays standards but with the Airfix tinted windows, which in my opinion have the correct amount of tint, they seem to be perfectly acceptable (to me at least).

 

In fact I cannot find a single photo with friction dampers on air-con stock after that approximate date. Harris' book on the Mk2s states that 381 coaches from Mk2D, E and F were refurbished from 1996 by Bombardier and it may well be this refurbishment programme that resulted in a wholesale bogie change.

 

I was wondering about the Hornby BSO (BSK - yes, I know) as well as the Lima's and then there's the Bachmann Mk2 FK and BFK, although with regard to the latter, I wouldn't want to tear apart otherwise reasonable models.  Unfortunately, I have none of the above in my collection to compare, having got rid of the Hornby's and Lima's a good while ago and only having a small number of 2nd class Bachmann Mk2's left, which I now run in otherwise Mk1 rakes (CK's for 1st class).

 

As with anything, there is (for me) a tipping point with regard to accuracy as opposed to cost and complexity.  As such, the Lima Mk2B's represent "value for money" on a well known online auction site!  Suggestions and comments are ALWAYS appreciated though.

 

With regard to the damper's, I did consider the refurbishment programme.  Presumably there was an appreciable improvement in ride and/or bogie life to justify what I imagine would have been a modification to the existing frames.

 

While the size is just fine, the corridor partition on the Lima Mk.2B just doesn't do it for me, failing to reflect the glass and aluminium originals - it would look better in a Mk.1 (or original 1964 Mk.2 FK). One of my favourite 'modern' coach interiors and seen to good effect here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoa3OTJfWIY

 

Excellent piece of footage and remarkably, having noted the Deltic, South Yorkshire power station's, array of semaphore signals and Newcastle Station in the past, I hadn't considered the coach interiors.

[BernardTPM]

It's surprisingly useful for interior shots. The dining coach is a very late Mk.1 with the Mk.2 style luggage racks.