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hespertalbahn

Standard Gauge Tin Turtle ?

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Hello there !

 

With the 0-scale Hudswell Clarke by Ixion at hand and looking forward to the Fowler by the same manufacturer I would like to start to build the kit (already at hand) by ABS (Wrightlines) of an open Motor Rail Simplex 40hp ('Tin Turtle') to build as a standard gauge loco.

Mainly this kit differs from the 0-16.5/0-14 - narrow gauge version with its drive (Tenshodo Spud with extended axles) and a standard gauge buffer beam.

I do remember to have seen a picture from the prototype of such a modified loco.

Sadly I can't remember where and on Google I haven't been successful.

I already have this book 'The early years of the Motor Rail & Tram Car Company 1911-1931' by W.J.K.Davies published by Plateway Press and also the yellow booklet 'A guide to Simplex narrow gauge locomotives' by D.R.Hall & J.A.S.Rowland, published by Moseley Railway Trust.

In the first book there are pictures and also drawings of a standard gauge version offered by MR themselfs with new frames, wheels of a larger diameter and the frame raised to the height of the buffers.

 

Is the more 'basic' conversion to standard gauge with further use of the original body and frame of that kit made to a prototype ?

 

For a pictures of a quite well built kit please look here: http://www.martynwelch.com/gallery/ left on the eighth row

I was told that an article about that kit was in the MRJ (issue No.77, which is already on my wishlist). 

 

So, my questions:

Does anybody have pictures, links or any other information about that simple modified 'thing' ?

Or is there even a preserved one somewhere ?

 

Thank you very much for your efforts in advance.

 

Best wishes

Dirk


 

Edited by hespertalbahn

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Hello Dirk,

 

The subject of the conversion of narrow gauge Simplexes to standard gauge is a complex one and there have been several articles published in the Industrial Railway Record under the title "The Origin of Species", or something similar, over the years.

In the first book there are pictures and also drawings of a standard gauge version offered by MR themselfs with new frames, wheels of a larger diameter and the frame raised to the height of the buffers.

If you mean the photo top left on page 95 then I think that's one of those discussed in the IRR articles. The caption in the book says it is from a Kent Construction catalogue so it wasn't offered by Motor Rail themselves. It's all very complicated, involving rebuilds by Motor Rail, rebuilds by Kent Construction and F.C. Hibberd, new builds by all of those companies etc.

 

If you mean one of the others then Motor Rail did produce new build standard gauge locos powered by the same Dorman 4JO engine as the 40HP narrow gauge locos. But the frames and running gear were all new and the bodywork was also new, using cast iron ends in place of the armour plated ends on the WDLR narrow gauge locos.

post-494-0-41946500-1366748177.jpg

 

Just going back to the Martyn Welch Simplex - he may be the master of weathering but it amuses me how he used the armour plate on the Simplex to demonstrate how to make it appear completely rusted through. At that point the metal is about half an inch thick and, with it being an outside curve where there is nowhere for water to gather, it's the last place that's going to rust through.

Edited by Ruston
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I had a look for preserved ones. The usually reliable http://www.uklocos.com/ does not show any preserved standard gauge Motor Rails.

 

The Chasewater Light Railway have long had  two examples I thought were by Motor Rail which turn out to be built (or more likely rebuilt) by Kent Construction Co:

 

http://www.chasewaterrailway.co.uk/stock.php

 

When I visited one was on display in the shed outside the museum area, the other may be on loan to the brewing museum in Burton

 

so at least these exist!

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The East Anglian Railway Museum used to have one like this:

 

post-494-0-41946500-1366748177.jpg

 

All I remember was that it had a 4 cylinder side valve petrol engine, and was consequently not run much due to the amount of fuel it consumed!

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I had a look for preserved ones. The usually reliable http://www.uklocos.com/ does not show any preserved standard gauge Motor Rails.

 

The Chasewater Light Railway have long had  two examples I thought were by Motor Rail which turn out to be built (or more likely rebuilt) by Kent Construction Co:

 

http://www.chasewaterrailway.co.uk/stock.php

 

When I visited one was on display in the shed outside the museum area, the other may be on loan to the brewing museum in Burton

 

so at least these exist!

I think the one at Burton is a Hibberd and if you look at it in detail it is very different from a Simplex but is obviously based on one. I'm sure there are another two standard gauge Simplexes at the Midland Railway Centre, Butterley.

 

Didn't Chasewater have L&Y No.1 and it was stripped down when the frames were stolen by scrap metal thieves?

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The Chasewater Railway did have a 40hp Motor Rail, presumably of narrow gauge origin, but converted by F.C.Hibberd - their No.2914 of 1944, as shown below.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/public/style_images/master/attachicon.gifFH 2914B.jpg

 

It was quite clearly a different type of conversion with the frame raised well above the wheels but the origins of the frame can clearly be seen.  It was sold by Chasewater and I think it has since been scrapped.

I remember seeing that one in a Sleeper resale/recycling yard in Nottinghamshire. I can't remember the name of the place but they had a particularly vicous looking gauard dog chained to a Bagnall and the Hibberd was just inside the gates and sat up to its wheels in mud. This would be after Chasewater sold it.

 

I have a part-built model based on it in the loft. I used the frames from the Wrightlines kit and started to make the bodywork from plasticard. I'll see if I can find it...

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Beamish Museum had a proper tin turtle converted to standard gauge. I last saw it in 1986 at Duxford. I cannot now find it on uklocos.com so presume it's been converted back to narrow gauge.

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Here is a photo of the one at Bass Brewery in Burton-on-Trent - taken in June 1989!  Can't believe it was that long ago.  I also took a couple of shots of the cab interior and of the chain drives underneath if anyone is interested.  I named the photo file as 'Simplex' but above it states that it is a Hibberd.  If this is definitely so I'll correct it.  The date on the sign says 1926 (as does the cast plate) - and says it is a 'Diesel'.

post-807-0-17238800-1366906190_thumb.jpg

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.......I also took a couple of shots of the cab interior and of the chain drives underneath if anyone is interested.  ......

 

Yes please - it would be much appreciated.

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Yes please - it would be much appreciated.

Here you go then - seeing as how you asked nicely :sungum:

post-807-0-77638000-1367158330_thumb.jpg

post-807-0-19901600-1367158348_thumb.jpg

post-807-0-75346400-1367158359_thumb.jpg

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Hello,

 

thank you all for the informations and the pictures.

Very helpful for me to get a better impression of the Tin Turtle and its standard gauge versions.

In the meantime the MRJ No.77 with the article about the kit by ABS/Wrightlines has arrived (from the Titfield Thunderbold bookshop).

 

Best wishes

Dirk

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A good photograph of an Italian 1435mm-gauge conversion of a 1918-vintage WDLR 40hp protected Motor Rail was published on page 339 of Industrial Railway Record No.90. Unfortunately, this was published in September 1981 so one suspects it may possibly be ever so slightly out of print.

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I knew I had this somewhere but I've only just now had the chance to go hunting for it.  

 

The Beamish standard gauge Tin Turtle in August 1979

 

Martin

 

 

post-171-0-85952900-1368280477_thumb.jpg

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Stumbled across this thread, in much the same way I stumbled across this old girl...

 

06.jpg

 

05.jpg

 

08.jpg

 

09.jpg

 

10.jpg

 

11.jpg

 

16.jpg

 

15.jpg

 

Hope these are of use.

 

Paul

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Intrigued as to where (& when?) this was?

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Looks like Ian Jolly's private site. If you search the UKlocos website for "jolly" in the 'location' field it will list the locos present here (all NG except for MR 1944 which is the loco shown in the photos).

 

Andy

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Stumbled across this thread, in much the same way I stumbled across this old girl...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope these are of use.

 

Paul

Knowing you're a bit of an urbexer, Paul, did you have a mooch round the nearby redundant military site?

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Photo of the loco when it was in use in 1981 at the Mold Synthite Works.

post-6748-0-04217800-1378926725.jpg

 

Plus a couple of the BR line (going OT).

 

post-6748-0-30326500-1378926810.jpg

Looking towards Rhydymwyn.

 

post-6748-0-30402700-1378926827.jpg

Looking towards Mold.

 

 

 

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Knowing you're a bit of an urbexer, Paul, did you have a mooch round the nearby redundant military site?

I know about Valley works, but not had the chance to look about but my gf has, she takes part in amphibian surveys and the site is a reserve.

 

Great pictures flyingsignalman, thanks for sharing.

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Motor Rail 2029 at Chappell and Wakes Colne in the late 60s. If I remember correctly, it did actually move on the day I was there?

 

post-2049-0-27586300-1378979584_thumb.jpg

 

and a more up to date picture of the same loco

 

http://www.uklocos.com/preservedrailwaystocklist/final-results.asp?action=display&Id=2038&Location=East-Anglian-Railway-Museum

 

 

Stewart

Edited by stewartingram
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Just going back to the Martyn Welch Simplex - he may be the master of weathering but it amuses me how he used the armour plate on the Simplex to demonstrate how to make it appear completely rusted through. At that point the metal is about half an inch thick and, with it being an outside curve where there is nowhere for water to gather, it's the last place that's going to rust through.

 

I hold up my hands in contrition - it was only after I'd decided to model the effect that Adrian Swain told me how thick the metal really was. If I recall, I tried to justify this by imagining the Simplex was used in an industrial location where a large metal girder had fallen from some height and struck the vehicle at this point and broken through. I worked on the theory (digging myself deeper in the mire) that the metal may not have been all that healthy anyway fifty years after the war, but I was getting desperate by now to justify it . . .

Best reason I could come up with at the time  :scratchhead: but you're right to point out that such rusting out would be most unlikely at that spot. 

Martyn 

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Nonetheless, Martyn - it is a beautiful model to say the least - and I find all your work jaw-droppingly stunning.

 

If ever there was a chance for you to re-do your book in colour, I think it would fly off the shelves (I know it would be on MY Christmas list...)

 

Giles

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That's very generous of you Giles and indeed it was originally planned that I would write a second volume but this time in step-by-step form all in colour. In fact I'd already made a start on some of the photos and written just a little text when I soon realised that having simple captions beneath some colour photos wouldn't be sufficient to properly explain all the procedures involved. I didn't think it fair to say: "If you want to understand this properly with more detail, you should buy my first book" - that seemed wrong on so many levels, so I started to write more detailed text but quickly realised I was essentially just repeating what had already been said in my first book, because aside from a few changes in products plus some newer powders that had come onto the market in the intervening years, my methods hadn't radically altered so I had nothing very new to say.
​I know there's been huge leap in the availability of acrylics and water pigments but I rarely use any of them because they don't suit my techniques for reasons such as their too fast drying times, the inability to reactivate the colours once they are dry etc - I use enamel paints for all my weathering and am comfortable with the results attained. Not really 'old dog, new tricks' but I'm familiar with my routines and pretty much know by now how each of the paints, thinners etc will react, how long I should leave stages before the next etc. I'm not adverse to learning new techniques if necessary so I hope I'm not coming across as smug or self satisfied - as I say on my website, I've been doing this for over fifty years so I suppose I should be starting to get it reasonably right by now!

So I was now beginning to feel that a second book would essentially just end up a repeat of the first but perhaps with prettier colour pictures - and it would cost almost twice as much to buy because of the full colour treatment. Also I think life has moved on since writing my book back in 1990 because fewer modellers were taking the subject very seriously in those days and certainly none of the mainstream manufacturers would have dreamt of producing new RTR models pre-weathered, that would have been quite unthinkable. Now look at what we have: there are DVDs, numerous articles in the mainstream railway mags, other books being published or proposed, websites dedicated to weathering, RTR models being offered in various states of grime from some of the big name manufacturers - it's all happening and whilst I'd like to think I may have helped trigger some of this in my own small way, so many modellers/authors have developed their own techniques and found new ways to produce some stunning effects, I think I'm content to read their articles and enjoy the show but I'm really not convinced a second book from me would add much to the mix nowadays.

I suppose there's always a chance I could be persuaded to change my mind and never close doors without checking first, but at my age (65) I'm content to get on with weathering models for customers as long as my arthritic hands allow and eyesight permits. I'm about to start modifying a Scaleseven layout that I've acquired and hopefully will find time to weather this and some of my own stock in my spare time, perhaps with a suitable article or two appearing in the MRJ. We'll see.

Thanks again for your kind comments and I apologise for wittering on at such length.
Martyn

Edited by Weatherman
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