Royal Train 1970-1985

[GordonC]

Have Class 50s ever been used to haul the Royal Train? pre-Class 67's it looked to have always been Class 47s for a number of years

[Calnefoxile]

On 20/05/2013 at 12:01, uax6 said:

Also the Ex LNWR vehicles have got diagrams in Jenkinsons LNWR coaches book... What fine looking vehicles they were too. One day i will make the early LMS set, but I have too many normal coaches to make first!

 

Andy G

 

I'm trying to make an N Gauge Silver Jubilee Royal Train, I have the MK1, MK2 & MK3 coaches ready for their conversion, but one of the coaches stands out like a sore thumb and that is M45000, unfortunately there is nothing in the N Gauge world that can be used as basis for a conversion, so I have to either scratchbuild, kit bash or get some etches made. I've got someone who is prepared to do some etches for me, but I need a clear diagram of the coach, I've tried the LNWR Society but they don't seem to have anything in their vast library of drawings and I've had no reply from The Princess Royal Locomotive Group, who are the current custodians of this Coach at Butterly.

 

So does anyone have a copy of Jenkinsons book and would be prepared to send me a copy of the diagrams for this coach, it might be under it's original number of 5000??

 

Many Thanks

 

Neal.

[ColinK]

I saw it being hauled by a pair of 25s in the early 1970s, it was an ecs  move though.

[TRAILRAGE]

 

On 20/05/2013 at 19:57, keefer said:

the mention of 325 in the list above seems to be confused with 2906

 

as  mike said, 325 was a BR mk1 RF (dia. 17) - there's mention of it in parkin's mk1 book in that it ran in lined maroon but was never painted/renumbered into the full train

1979 P5 book states that it (along with the mk1 special build 2900/2901/2902) was converted in 1977 from vac brake/steam heat to air brake/ETH and B5 bogies

 

W14112 ex-2b BFK became 2906 staff sleeper

MK 1 RF 325 did indeed cary Lined Royal Plum Livery and carried both numbers during its time in the Royal Trail. Elusive coach to find photos of it would appear as I have only found these two.

 

 

 

Cheers Trailrage

[TravisM]

I remember a conversation with a duty manager who had worked on the train as a driver and though it was capable of 100mph, under no exception was he to exceed 75mph.  Her majesty doesn’t like the higher speed as she feels bounced around especially if she’s having a bath 

[keefer]

@TRAILRAGE funnily enough, while looking for something else, I came across this in the May 1982 RO.

Must re-check Parkin as he gives the impression that 325 stayed in maroon until relatively recently, your first linked pic there proves otherwise

Edited September 6, 2020 by keefer

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, TRAILRAGE said:

 

MK 1 RF 325 did indeed cary Lined Royal Plum Livery and carried both numbers during its time in the Royal Trail. Elusive coach to find photos of it would appear as I have only found these two.

 

 

 

Cheers Trailrage

Nice to see it, irrespective of running number, as I had a very nice lunch in it one day in 1985 when the train was on its way from a Royal engagement in Cardiff to one in Bristol (both in connection with GW 150).  45000 was part of the Royal Train fleet and along with 2905 was probably one of the most heavily used vehicles in the fleet as it was the Train Officer's saloon so like 2905 was used on all categories of train and not just on full Royals.

[Michael Hodgson]

11 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I remember a conversation with a duty manager who had worked on the train as a driver and though it was capable of 100mph, under no exception was he to exceed 75mph.  Her majesty doesn’t like the higher speed as she feels bounced around especially if she’s having a bath 

 

It was Good Queen Bess who supposedly had a bath every month, whether she needed it or not. 

I wonder they kept a specially fitted out coach for her in the royal mews. 

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I remember a conversation with a duty manager who had worked on the train as a driver and though it was capable of 100mph, under no exception was he to exceed 75mph.  Her majesty doesn’t like the higher speed as she feels bounced around especially if she’s having a bath 

I've been on a Royal Train travelling at 90 mph and the Mk 3 saloons are perfectly good to ride in at that speed.  The normal reason for timing the train slower is basically to spin out journey times because many were overnight so had to fit a particular pattern. Baths incidentally were normally taken when the train was stationary,   Things would definitely be a very long way off programme if the Principal Party was taking their morning bath when the train was underway.

[Wheatley]

There are diagrams of the 12 wheeled saloons and one of the semi-royal saloons in Jenkinson, but not M45000. There is an undimensioned sketch of the interior layout and a couple of photos but that's all. I have the 1995 Pendragon reprint though, the OPC original may be different. Unhelpfully he describes the panelling as 'non standard', nearer toplight than anything else but not toplight. More helpfully it was on a short BR Mk1 chassis by 1977.

[Gwiwer]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Things would definitely be a very long way off programme if the Principal Party was taking their morning bath when the train was underway.

From which we learn, inter alia, that the Principal Party prefers to bathe rather than shower    

 

As I understand it HM Saloon and HRH DoE Saloon are equipped with baths and showers.  HRH PoW / DoC Saloon is equipped with showers.  Staff sleeping vehicles are also equipped with showers.  

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

From which we learn, inter alia, that the Principal Party prefers to bathe rather than shower    

 

As I understand it HM Saloon and HRH DoE Saloon are equipped with baths and showers.  HRH PoW / DoC Saloon is equipped with showers.  Staff sleeping vehicles are also equipped with showers.  

HRH PoW preferred to have a bath - which led to something of a problem one morning at a stabling site when the train was for some reason (Note *) not in the correct position and the bath water was - how shall I put it - not in its normal and expected relationship with the sides and ends of the bath.

 

Note * 'the 'some reason' was probably down to 'somebody' in the Civil engineer's organisation marking the wrong spot for the white light board (stop marker).  The problem with the bathwater was only the start of a less than good morning for HRH who missed his breakfast as well - I ended up having to go up to London from Swindon to collect the box containing that off the Up 'Limited' and deliver it thence to Kensington Palace as it had to be returned to his household and could not be left on the train.

[TRAILRAGE]

 

ALways had a facination with the Royal Train since I saw an article in making models of the 1977 Train in a Railway Modeller back in the 80's. There really has been some lovely looking coaches in the Royal Train over the years. It's strange how it seems almost stale in being only MK2B and MK3 nowadays. Although that doesn't stop me from getting excited like a child when I see it!

 

WCJS 76

 

798

 

799

 

2900

 

2901

2902

 

2903

 

2904

 

 

2905

 

 

2906

 

 

2907

 

2908 & 2909

 

2910

 

 

45000/2911

 

 

2912

 

2914

 

 

2915

 

 

2916

 

 

2917

 

 

2918

 

 

2920

 

 

2921

 

 

2922

 

 

2923

 

 

Was there ever a 2913 and 2919?  Cannot find any pics of them 

[DavidB-AU]

2919 (ex-40518) is a Royal Household coach currently stored at Wolverton. More or less the same as 2918 (ex-40515).

 

Cheers
David

[TravisM]

On 29/01/2016 at 16:03, slilley said:

When the Queen went to Weston SM in 1977 she used a shortened HST as I recall.

I remember seeing that as I used to live just outside W-s-M in the 70’s.  Does anyone have the formation and coach numbers of the set used?

[Calnefoxile]

23 hours ago, Wheatley said:

There are diagrams of the 12 wheeled saloons and one of the semi-royal saloons in Jenkinson, but not M45000. There is an undimensioned sketch of the interior layout and a couple of photos but that's all. I have the 1995 Pendragon reprint though, the OPC original may be different. Unhelpfully he describes the panelling as 'non standard', nearer toplight than anything else but not toplight. More helpfully it was on a short BR Mk1 chassis by 1977.

 

I've been trying to track down some scale drawings of this vehicle as well, I'm trying to build one in N Gauge and have the Vinyl overlays from Adam Warr for all the other coaches, but there is nothing in N that I can use a starter or donor for a bit of kitbashing for this coach, so I feel a scratchbuild coming on, but I need dimensions.

 

Only place I haven't tried is the NRM, I've tried the LSWR Society, The PRCLT (Who currently own the coach) at Butterly all to no avail.

 

If anyone knows of the whereabouts of any drawings for this coach, could they let me know please??

 

Regards

 

NEal.

[Wheatley]

I'd be tempted to go with 57' x 9' and make the rest fit. At which point someone will turn up a drawing ...

[The Stationmaster]

Somewhere I might just have some length details of various vehicles as I have a few unofficially retained documents (most of which I wrote anyway) which might have some dimensions in.  We always had an overall length measurement and distance from leading cab to principal door (usually in each direction for planning purposes and those used to go into the notices.  However individual vehicle lengths were normally kept by Wolverton and only used at Crewe (in order to total up the relevant information for other planners) and if they did happen to get onto a Regional file that was always kept locked away and should still be locked away.  The latter usually only happened when we found a problem with the quoted total length etc measurements or distance to the principal door.    

 

It was different when the older company vehicles were still used because each Region kept its own details for their vehicles.  Very occasionally scale drawings of the formation were used for planning purposes but normally only for full Royal Train jobs and not for the far more common Special Trains.

[Wheatley]

This is the full text from Jenkinson:

 

"Pride of place amongst the saloons was held by the Chairman's Saloon (D12), a distinctive 57' elliptical roof coach with non-standard panelling - neither traditional Wolverton nor '12 wheel'. It approximated to the toplight style but did not quite match even this period of coach decoration. Designated by the LMS as the President's Saloon the vehicle is still in existance as no. 45000 (now mounted on BR 100mph bogies) and is not infrequently to be seen marshalled the Royal Train."

 

The summary table states:

 

57'0", 33t. 9' wide body, dual fitted. Fitted with LMS bogies 1933, now fitted with BR bogies and cleared for 100mph service. 

 

I have enough bits set aside to build a 1960s 5 vehicle set in 4mm - the two ex LNWR power brakes, one of the wartime 12 wheeled saloons and two of the Mk1s styled to match the wartime 12 wheelers. Quite what the DoE was doing in Galloway in the 1960s seems to have escaped the official record...

Edited September 8, 2020 by Wheatley

[slilley]

13 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I remember seeing that as I used to live just outside W-s-M in the 70’s.  Does anyone have the formation and coach numbers of the set used?

 

I have a feeling there was a report in Railway Magazine at the time. My 1977 ones are in the loft, next time I shin up there, I will try to remember to have a look for them.

 

Simon 

[TRAILRAGE]

I started but never finished a model of 45000 using a Bachman P1 coach mounted on a Replica BG Chassis and B4 Bogies.

It was trying to figure out the best way of doing the windows where I got stuck.

 

Cheers Trailrage

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by TRAILRAGE

[DavidB-AU]

19 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I remember seeing that as I used to live just outside W-s-M in the 70’s.  Does anyone have the formation and coach numbers of the set used?

 

Found a picture but can't see coach numbers.

 

 

 

[Sithlord75]

4 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

Found a picture but can't see coach numbers.

 

 

 

That'd be a quick trip if they turned the wick up! 

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Sithlord75 said:

That'd be a quick trip if they turned the wick up! 

Not really because there only 4 passenger vehicles so speed would have to be restricted due to lack of braking power.   Back in those days you needed 5 passenger vehicles in an HST formation in order to obtain sufficient brake force  to be able to run at line speed.

 

But it would indeed go like a rocket if turned up to full power although it would be a very dicey job indeed trying to stop in the right place.

[dvdlcs]

18 hours ago, Wheatley said:

The summary table states:

 

57'0", 33t. 9' wide body, dual fitted. Fitted with LMS bogies 1933, now fitted with BR bogies and cleared for 1000mph service.

 

If only they had a loco capable ...

 

Yes, I know there is an additional zero there - thought I would capture the moment in case it was edited out :-)