Developments on the Snowdon Mountain Railway

[Edwin_m]

We visited SMR in July 2011, had a wait of 90min or so for our booked service and were lucky enough to be assigned seats in the compartment next to the loco on a journey that turned out to be steam hauled (pushed?).  There's probably little to match it if you want to be close to a steam engine working really hard, though I was a little troubled by the fact that the joints in the wooden carriage distorted visibly as each cylinder applied its force to the coupling. 

 

The weather was poor both above and below but the cafe was packed, and I think this may be another reason for limiting people's length of stay there as it could become too full with the risk of those not dressed for the mountain having to wait outside. 

 

I did think at the time that they were missing a trick not advertising steam workings at a premium fare, as some would be prepared to pay more for the steam experience and others wouldn't be bothered either way (though I note the diesel fare hasn't gone down!).  I'm not quite sure why the premium fare should allow more time on the mountain as well as steam haulage, as people who want one don't necessarily want both, but this may be a question of the time that elapses before the next steam working arrives to take them back. 

 

As others have said, this is clearly a very commercial railway trying to make all the money it can in a season that is probably quite short. 

[Gwiwer]

 

this is clearly a very commercial railway trying to make all the money it can in a season that is probably quite short. 

 

 

And to be fair with extremely high costs.

[TomJ]

The Cairngorm situation is quite different. Firstly it's a fairly high capacity vehicle running at frequent intervals. Secondly in winter most people slide down the hill under their own steam. In summer there is a closed system whereby you cannot leave the top station at all. So whilst people might hang around for a bit they are unlikely to stay to the bitter end. Also they stop up passengers 45min or do before the last train down.

 

As regards injured walkers I think a line has to be drawn. Obviously I'd hope they'd assist mountain rescue with seriously injured people (although as stated the best might be to keep them warm in the cafe and await rescue). But if they took down every walker who was a bit cold and tired they'd be in danger of filling their trains so they can't take down their passengers and staff to whom they do have a duty of care. It's not uncommon for mountain rescue to get called for people who want a drink or are late for dinner or just fed up of walking.

And of course none of this is possible on any other mountain in Wales. What if people get into difficulty on Cadair Idris or Glyder Fach. There aren't railways or cafes there, yet people seem to manage safely.

 

Mind you fans of the Rev Awdry will remember that No 6 redeemed himself by struggling over the Devils Back on Culdee Fell to rescue fallen climbers in a storm

[Cornish Triang Paul]

At the price of an SMR " heritage " return, I can do over 40 miles on the WHR/FR. No comparison !

[edcayton]

No comparison indeed. The SMR is a totally unique experience in the UK and it costs what it costs. As people have said there are long queues and the need to book in advance, which suggests that many people don't begrudge the charges. The appeal goes far beyond us train fans and the views (when available!) are beyond comparison.

 

Ed

[Bomag]

No comparison indeed. The SMR is a totally unique experience in the UK and it costs what it costs. As people have said there are long queues and the need to book in advance, which suggests that many people don't begrudge the charges. The appeal goes far beyond us train fans and the views (when available!) are beyond comparison.

 

Ed

 

I disagree and not just because you cannot qualify an absolute.

 

I think that the trip up Cairngorm is not only a similar experience but more enjoyable. The rail side may be not as long or exiting but the views from the top are better (in good weather!) and the facilities at the top are better and with a more pleasant service.

 

 

Even so a trip on either the FR or WHR is more enjoyable.

[Oldddudders]

The SMR is popular not least because it is relatively accessible to a large % of the English. No-one's heard of Scafell Pike, and Ben Nevis is too far away, while Snowdon is on everyone's radar. Thus other worthy mountains lack the same appeal, and the railway means even the lame and the lazy can enjoy the experience.

[The Stationmaster]

No comparison indeed. The SMR is a totally unique experience in the UK and it costs what it costs. As people have said there are long queues and the need to book in advance, which suggests that many people don't begrudge the charges. The appeal goes far beyond us train fans and the views (when available!) are beyond comparison.

 

Ed

I quite agree Ed - it is in operational and technical terms on a par with Swiss mountain railways (and somewhat cheaper to travel on than those of them I have come across) while as Ian has said it is in a very accessible tourist are with a large market not too far away.  A trip to the summit on a clear day is both interesting and affords some excellent views and vistas although the past cafe at the top was an utter slum and very definitely not in the least comparable with what one finds on the European mainland.  

 

But then some of us don't just ride on railways for the cafes at the termini.

[Edge]

I think that perhaps I should clarify my earlier post. Strikes me as being just a little bit too b*tchy.

 

I fully understand and respect that the SMR is not a heritage railway: it is a business being run as an ongoing concern and they do not have the obligations of a heritage or preserved railway to maintain steam traction at all. And as it has never fallen into disuse, one can conclude that it has been an awful lot more successful than a great many of the lines surrounding it (Welsh Highland, Penrhyn, Ffestiniog, Talyllyn, the various Dinorwic railways etc.) by following this path. As far as I am aware, the SMR has never closed (with the exception of wartime) and has been in use constantly since its construction.

 

However, speaking for myself only, I simply refuse to shell out additional funds and tie myself to being at a certain place at a certain time, while on holiday, simply because I wish to ride behind (er, in front of) a steam engine. And it is for this reason that the SMR will not be getting my custom this summer. 

 

I hope that this has come across as being slightly more eloquent and reasonable than my earlier post,

[jamie92208]

The SMR is popular not least because it is relatively accessible to a large % of the English. No-one's heard of Scafell Pike, and Ben Nevis is too far away, while Snowdon is on everyone's radar. Thus other worthy mountains lack the same appeal, and the railway means even the lame and the lazy can enjoy the experience.

I always thought that Scafell Pike was a Peak parked at Toton on a Sunday.

 

I'll get my coat.

 

Jamie

[edcayton]

I think that perhaps I should clarify my earlier post. Strikes me as being just a little bit too b*tchy.

 

I fully understand and respect that the SMR is not a heritage railway: it is a business being run as an ongoing concern and they do not have the obligations of a heritage or preserved railway to maintain steam traction at all. And as it has never fallen into disuse, one can conclude that it has been an awful lot more successful than a great many of the lines surrounding it (Welsh Highland, Penrhyn, Ffestiniog, Talyllyn, the various Dinorwic railways etc.) by following this path. As far as I am aware, the SMR has never closed (with the exception of wartime) and has been in use constantly since its construction.

 

However, speaking for myself only, I simply refuse to shell out additional funds and tie myself to being at a certain place at a certain time, while on holiday, simply because I wish to ride behind (er, in front of) a steam engine. And it is for this reason that the SMR will not be getting my custom this summer. 

 

I hope that this has come across as being slightly more eloquent and reasonable than my earlier post,

 

Am I correct in thinking that the Talyllyn never closed?

 

Ed

[Edge]

Am I correct in thinking that the Talyllyn never closed?

 

Ed

 

 

It did close, but was resurrected in short order by enthusiasts. The FR also technically never closed, but was dilapidated. I forgot about the VoR though. Sshh! I don't think anybody noticed

[Waverley West]

We holidayed in North Wales a few years ago. The SMR was just about the only railway in the area we didn't do. The summit was very rarely clear in the 2 weeks we were there, so there seemed little point. That combined with the high price, the various restrictions and (I now understand) the fact that they don't take dogs means it will be many years before I take a trip on the line. I'd rather walk up, something I've done many times before and been lucky enough to have wonderful views from the summit. 

 

I walked up the Cairngorm (mountain) last week and visited the cafe at the top of the railway. The staff there were very welcoming but the restrictions at the top were very unmountain-like and OTT in my opinion. Mrs WW took the train up and couldn't leave the top station. Meanwhile, I had to walk along a path which had been roped off to prevent people straying (ignored by a number of obviously seasoned walkers). I was also berated rather unpleasantly by a guide for not keeping my dog on a lead (even though she was close by and under control and I hadn't seen any sign stating that I should keep her on a lead). I am very sympathetic generally towards environmental needs, but threatening people with prison (i jest not) for not having their dog on a lead in such a situation is only likely to put people's backs up, not get their support to help protect plant and bird life. Anyway, that's a bit off thread I guess.

 

I think I'm going to keep my dual interests of hillwalking and railways very separate from now on. They don't seem to mix very well.

 

Dave

[jamie92208]

It did close, but was resurrected in short order by enthusiasts. The FR also technically never closed, but was dilapidated. I forgot about the VoR though. Sshh! I don't think anybody noticed

I'm not sure about the legal position of the Welsh Highland.  It was crtainly abandoned and dismantled but I seem to remember that because it was nevr legally abandoned by Act of Parliament it was technically still a railway which saved the trackbed from being sold and allowed the FR to rebuild it as they were actually the owners.  I know that it was more compicated than that with various creditors involved but did it ever technically close.

 

Jamie

[Edge]

The company itself ceased trading, but the assets carried on as an on-going concern in various people's hands until the Ffestiniog purchased them in the 1990s. A railway could have been opened at any point if track were to be laid.

 

And I think that that could be considered a good point: if there is literally no track left on the line (as was the case over most of the WHR, I think that the line can be safely categorised as 'closed', whatever its legal situation. However, I do rather enjoy straddling fences (not literally, thank god), hence my quote 'never fallen into disuse' in my original post, instead of 'closed'

[Horsetan]

I wonder if the SMR will consider a tie-up with Ryanair.....

[jamie92208]

I wonder if the SMR will consider a tie-up with Ryanair.....

Perhaps not as there are no toilets on the train to fit a coin slot to.  Perhaps though they could charge more for the return journey than the upward one,

 

Jamie

[Andy Kirkham]

It did close, but was resurrected in short order by enthusiasts. The FR also technically never closed, but was dilapidated. I forgot about the VoR though. Sshh! I don't think anybody noticed

The Ffestiniog ceased operating in 1946 and most of it lay derelict for nine years until the revival began in 1955. However, throughout that period, one of the quarries leased a section of the line in Blaenau to transport their slate to the LNWR exchange sidings, so the FfR was never wholly disused.

[298]

I wonder if the SMR will consider a tie-up with Ryanair.....

 

There is a simple answer- just go on the scurge of the independant tourist, a coach trip....!! We had the misfortune of sharing a coach with them on a trip on the SMR in 2005, and I never thought it possible to form such a group of people who could be so devoid of any ability to exist in the outside world. The Alpha male saw fit to procrast the most ridiculous comparison statements for the whole coach to hear (their coach has better seats than ours, why does the driver keep banging the coach, this is worse than British Rail, those climbers look cold and wet), and it's obviously the railway's fault that you can't fit a dozen people into one compartment.

 

But at least the railway would honour their booking if it was guaranteed steam, and you wouldn't have to queue up for tickets at Llamberis booking office.  

[The Stationmaster]

There is a simple answer- just go on the scurge of the independant tourist, a coach trip....!! We had the misfortune of sharing a coach with them on a trip on the SMR in 2005, and I never thought it possible to form such a group of people who could be so devoid of any ability to exist in the outside world. The Alpha male saw fit to procrast the most ridiculous comparison statements for the whole coach to hear (their coach has better seats than ours, why does the driver keep banging the coach, this is worse than British Rail, those climbers look cold and wet), and it's obviously the railway's fault that you can't fit a dozen people into one compartment.

 

But at least the railway would honour their booking if it was guaranteed steam, and you wouldn't have to queue up for tickets at Llamberis booking office.  

But it still wouldn't be worth the hassle!  But contrary to popular thoughts some coach parties can be fun - on the Achenseebahn 10 years ago I finished up in the same (train) coach as a Belgian (road) coach party who were clearly not at all in the railway enthusiast mould and they were great travelling companions even keeping out of my way for various pics and loudly telling other passengers to do the same.

 

Mind you a ride on the Zillertalbahn was not quite so amusing and the coach party tourists were not at all the sort of folk one could enjoy sharing a train with.

[John_Hughes]

The Ffestiniog ceased operating in 1946 and most of it lay derelict for nine years until the revival began in 1955. However, throughout that period, one of the quarries leased a section of the line in Blaenau to transport their slate to the LNWR exchange sidings, so the FfR was never wholly disused.

 

According to Boyd, the FfR's sole remaining employee played the 'closed' situation both ways, on the one hand insisting that the railway was closed and so couldn't pay its bills, and on the other insisting it was still open as the inhabitants of Tunnel Cottage were using a 'borrowed' slate wagon to carry their shopping; and this almost in the same week as he warned those good folk off the line for trespass!

 

Neither the VoR nor the Talyllyn ever closed; indeed, Edward Thomas told Tom Rolt  that even without the then-new Society's help he would have run trains anyway if asked to do so by Lady Haydn Jones.

[Edge]

The Tal-y-llyn may not have closed legally, but trains stopped running on Oct 6th 1950 and the society did not take over the line until Feb 1951 and trains did not start again until May bank holiday 1951.

 

My point was, that despite the travails of the various lines in the area, the SMR has continued to operate year in and year out since its construction, and has never stopped. So they must be doing something right.

[Chameleon]

There was a good comment in the recent narrow gauge magazine. Why not lend/donate a SMR loco to the NRM at York? It would fill an empty space about mountain railways and look pretty impressive mounted on an inclined bit of rack railway as a display stand.

[Bomag]

The Tal-y-llyn may not have closed legally, but trains stopped running on Oct 6th 1950 and the society did not take over the line until Feb 1951 and trains did not start again until May bank holiday 1951.

 

My point was, that despite the travails of the various lines in the area, the SMR has continued to operate year in and year out since its construction, and has never stopped. So they must be doing something right.

 

I thought they stopped running trains in the winter, just a the Tal-y-llyn did in 50/51.

[John_Hughes]

I thought they stopped running trains in the winter, just a the Tal-y-llyn did in 50/51.

 

And, of course, there was a lengthy period of closure after the fatal accident on the SMR's opening day!