Pre Grouping general discussion

[Regularity]

Isn’t this getting a bit too specific for a “general discussion”?

[Lacathedrale]

Sorry guys, I'll ease off (btw Guy you are right but listed by SECR society so I asked him - no reply yet).

[Regularity]

Easier if you create you own thread: you can add tags which indicate things like scale, and it’s easier to get the right help.

[Andy Hayter]

Do you mean Macadam roads? 

 

Actually, yes possibly.  My previous "no" post related to tarred Macadam surfaces, but if you were referring to the crushed stone surface then yes a Macadam type surface.

[relaxinghobby]

Would this tanker work for the pre-grouping ear? Perhaps in the USA as I read that the first bogie tanks their where built in 1869, leaky wooden ones, quickley replaces by superior rivitted iron plate tankers.

This is an H0 model so in 00 is a bit smaller, and hereseen along side a Mainline one.

I'm trying the Sharpie pen method for removing the printed SHELL lettering.

Repeatedly draw over the lettering, the solvent and roughness of the flet tip wears away at the paint?

Such a tanker back in the day might be used for shifting shale oil or molasas? Grot black colour scheme?

The tank is 135 mm long.

 

 

[Penlan]

..... I'm trying the Sharpie pen method for removing the printed SHELL lettering......

To remove decals off stock, I use auto brake fluid, but that may not be the first choice for many   

 

As to whether the bogie tank wagon is suitable for a UK pre-grouping based layout, personally I would doubt it, however it's your layout, so you can do what you like.

[Edwardian]

I suspect it is simply way too big, even in a shortened form, for a pre-Grouping wagon, but, then, you've succeeded with all sorts of left-field ideas.

 

Alternatively, once the lettering is off, you could drill 4 port holes along the side and place a Beatle behind each one..

[Caley Jim]

As to whether the bogie tank wagon is suitable for a UK pre-grouping based layout, personally I would doubt it, however it's your layout, so you can do what you like.

The only pre-group bogie tank wagon I'm aware of is this one -

 

 

Built by Hurst Nelson.

 

Other oil companies are available.

 

As Penlan says, rule 1 applies!

 

Jim

[Jol Wilkinson]

I suspect it is simply way too big, even in a shortened form, for a pre-Grouping wagon

 

Definitely. I don't think oil tankers were that common in pre-group days anyway. As far as I know the LNWR didn't have any. Oil was mostly transported in barrels. Petrol didn't come into common use until after WW1, and then was often shipped in "cans".

 

A quote from the IGG website.

 

"Tank wagons for transporting liquids of various kinds were in use from the 1840's and limited quantities of oil products were moved in this way from about the 1860's. Most oil was actually shipped in wooden barrels and oil tank wagons did not become common until the later 1920's when people started building specialised rail-connected reception facilities". 

 

Early "tar" wagons had rectangular tanks, with riveted panels.

 

Milk tankers were a 1930's development.

[relaxinghobby]

Thanks for the comments so far, do we know when the big Hurst Nelson bogie tank was made.

I was thinking more along the line that as the USA developed this type of large bogie tanker much earlier than in the UK some may have been shipped over by

a budding entrepreneur and hawked around the British system. After all Pullman did it with his big bogie coaches.

Also I have just been reading a book on the Trans Caucasian Railway which was developed in the 1880s to exploit the Caspian Sea oil field and they had a lot of British influence at the beginning and used bogie tankers from an early time. Book by R.A.S Hennesse.

There is a picture dated 1905 showing a large Fairlie tank pulling a vast train of tankers, although it is not clear they could be bogies, and they have the large turret to

allow for expansion of the liquid.

The book also has some general arrangement side elevations drawings of the Fairlies 0-6-0 + 0-6-0, I wander what chassis could be used for one of those?

Edited October 28, 2018 by relaxinghobby

[IWCR]

There were pre-grouping tankers in common use.

Even my local railway which was in a minor isolated area had several in regular use..

These comprised 2 or 3 private owner tanks carrying Naptha  (basically paraffin) and a further 2 or 3 railway owned tanks carrying tar collected from local gas works.  All these tankers were 4 wheel and around the 10 ton capacity.

I suspect similar small numbers would have been widespread across the UK,

 

Pete

[Edwardian]

Definitely. I don't think oil tankers were that common in pre-group days anyway. As far as I know the LNWR didn't have any. Oil was mostly transported in barrels. Petrol didn't come into common use until after WW1, and then was often shipped in "cans".

 

A quote from the IGG website.

 

"Tank wagons for transporting liquids of various kinds were in use from the 1840's and limited quantities of oil products were moved in this way from about the 1860's. Most oil was actually shipped in wooden barrels and oil tank wagons did not become common until the later 1920's when people started building specialised rail-connected reception facilities". 

 

Early "tar" wagons had rectangular tanks, with riveted panels.

 

Milk tankers were a 1930's development.

 

Absolutely.  It's, thus, a very small field in which Relaxinghobby searches for a prototype. That bogie tanker pictured is a very specific and rare example.  My concern is, whether used as a bogie tank or shortened to a 4-wheeler, the sheer bulk and diameter of the barrel and the central 'conning tower' is against it.

 

When planning goods traffic for a mid-Thirties GW layout, I reckoned I needed no milk tankers as opposed to siphons, and that tank wagons would be rare and still be as likely to be the rectangular variety as cylindrical.

 

The modern steam age railway, as represented by RTR, is a thing of the late Thirties onwards.  Go earlier than that, and the world becomes progressively less familiar.

[Andy Hayter]

Would this tanker work for the pre-grouping ear? Perhaps in the USA as I read that the first bogie tanks their where built in 1869, leaky wooden ones, quickley replaces by superior rivitted iron plate tankers.

This is an H0 model so in 00 is a bit smaller, and hereseen along side a Mainline one.

I'm trying the Sharpie pen method for removing the printed SHELL lettering.

Repeatedly draw over the lettering, the solvent and roughness of the flet tip wears away at the paint?

Such a tanker back in the day might be used for shifting shale oil or molasas? Grot black colour scheme?

The tank is 135 mm long.

 

P1010083a.JPG

 

They arrived in Europe in 1917 courtesy of the American Army when they joined WW1.

After the war many (maybe all that remained) were left in France and the French government subsequently ordered more as part of their TP operations to restore a country and economy after the armistice.  [TP = Travail Publique - public works].   These are generally known therefore as TP citernes although many were not part of the TP program.  TPs also came as bogie vans, flats, open mineral wagons etc.

 

I cannot see from the picture what state the bogie is in.  Crude versions have a solid back to the bogie (Playcraft for example) which can be cut through to give the open appearance of the "diamond frame" or arched frame bogie.  Wheels were originally solid but were often replaced on an as needed basis for spoked wheels - which could lead to a mixture of wheels on a wagon.  I personally prefer to replace with all spoked wheels which enhances the open feel of the bogie and was commonly found by he mid/late 20s onwards.

 

AFAIK none ever ventured across the Channel due to their size - which would be outside UK loading gauge I think.

[t-b-g]

Definitely. I don't think oil tankers were that common in pre-group days anyway. As far as I know the LNWR didn't have any. Oil was mostly transported in barrels. Petrol didn't come into common use until after WW1, and then was often shipped in "cans".

 

A quote from the IGG website.

 

"Tank wagons for transporting liquids of various kinds were in use from the 1840's and limited quantities of oil products were moved in this way from about the 1860's. Most oil was actually shipped in wooden barrels and oil tank wagons did not become common until the later 1920's when people started building specialised rail-connected reception facilities". [/size]

 

Early "tar" wagons had rectangular tanks, with riveted panels.

 

Milk tankers were a 1930's development.

Many years ago I found an old tank wagon in a derelict industrial siding at Wath on Dearne. It had no trace of livery but did have a 1912 dated LNWR plate on the solebar. Probably a P/O registration plate rather than a company owner plate but it was 30 years ago and I can't recall. Somewhere, buried in the stuff in the loft, is a colour slide!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Many years ago I found an old tank wagon in a derelict industrial siding at Wath on Dearne. It had no trace of livery but did have a 1912 dated LNWR plate on the solebar. Probably a P/O registration plate rather than a company owner plate but it was 30 years ago and I can't recall. Somewhere, buried in the stuff in the loft, is a colour slide!

As the materials being conveyed were fairly specialised, perhaps the railway companies left it to private owners to supply their own wagons. I can find no record of any LNWR tank wagons in any of my books or on the LNWRS website.

[Caley Jim]

As the materials being conveyed were fairly specialised, perhaps the railway companies left it to private owners to supply their own wagons. I can find no record of any LNWR tank wagons in any of my books or on the LNWRS website.

Although the CR had a few vitriol tank wagons of their own from the 1860's onward, from the late 1890's they also provided underframes onto which private owners could mount tanks supplied by outside contractors.  There were a number of chemical works in the Glasgow area, notably Tennants, and also the shale oil industry in West Lothian.

 

Jim

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

I appreciate that many of you who contribute to this thread are respected, accomplished and professional modellers, builders and painters, so my posting is aimed mainly at those who are within the collecting and modelling of ready-to-run 00 models group.

 

You will notice in the RMweb ‘banner headline’ at the top of the page that The Wishlist Poll 2018 is currently running and will be up to midnight on Saturday 3 November, with publication of the results a few days later. I am the ‘lead role’ of The 00 Poll Team.

 

This year’s Poll has 92 new items listed – and over 50 of those are from the Pre-grouping era.

 

We have provided those in response to requests from voters and we hope you will take part.

 

We appreciate that whilst some are specific listings – such as the MR ‘Spinner’, LBSCR ‘Balloon’ stock and LNWR 6-wheel CCT (Diags.444 & 444A) – others have to take a more generic form of listing, one such example being: GSWR Wagons, Vans & Brake Vans.

 

The latter would require a dedicated Poll of its own, so we hope you will understand that we have to draw a line somewhere. We have a potential of 30,000+ items that could go in!

 

At least this year you have more selection than ever before (since 2012, when The Poll in its current format started). We have found that – with one or two understandable exceptions – the further back in time we go with listings, the fewer the votes an item will attract. If we make the listing too complex, we will lose voters. We do our best to appeal to the broadest range of modellers and collectors from beginner to expert, right around the world.

 

If you have any queries or suggestions for 2019, I am happy to take them here, or via PM, or via email to: thepollteam@gmail.com.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[pete_mcfarlane]

I have failed to find a decent source of drawings for SER and LCDR 6-wheel coaches.  If anyone knows of some, I'd be pathetically grateful. 

 

I've only just spotted this.

 

Mike King does some 4mm scale drawings. The SeMG website has a copy of his pricelist: http://www.semgonline.com/files/MikeKingDrawings.rtf

 

There are also some drawings in past issues of Invicta and Onward, the two SECR society magazines. 

[Nick Holliday]

The only pre-group bogie tank wagon I'm aware of is this one -

 

Oakbank bogie tank.jpg

 

Built by Hurst Nelson.

 

Other oil companies are available.

 

As Penlan says, rule 1 applies!

 

Jim

Tourret's book in Petroleum Tankers has a few more examples of pre-grouping bogie tankers, including the Oakbank one, which was one of two, the other being No. 42, but I can't find any build date inthe rather complex text of my edition.  There is a photo of another Hurst Nelson tank, somewhat shorter and stubbier than the Oakbank one, built in 1900 as a demonstrator, and carrying their own livery. Tourret suggests it was the first British bogie tanker.  Shields and Brown of Glasgow received a similar HN tank shortly afterwards.

Another picture shows a BP bogie tanker, which lasted until 1968, but built by Pickerings in 1908 (Plate 94 in my edition) which looks very similar to the model which started this discussion.  Apart from replacing the (oversize) central conning tower with two smaller hatches it looks as if it could make a suitable 4mm model.

As for the number of tankers running in pre-grouping days, it is difficult to be too specific, due to the proliferation of rectangular tanks, and the various terminology used, but Tourret notes that by 1918 there were 9,322 tank wagons running on British rails, of which 2,444 were for petroleum related traffic. The HMRS book on the subject, Oil on the Rails, has photos of large oil depots dating from 1902, with fairly modern circular tankers in view. There were sufficient tank wagons in service that the RCH felt prompted to issue specifcations for them in 1907 and 1911.

Several mainline companies had small fleets of tank wagons, although whether they qualify as oil tanks, being used for a variety of liquid substances, is a moot point.  The Caledonian had around 24 tank wagons, some being required to transport the gas oil required for carraige lighting.  A few line dabbled in oil firing for their locos in pre-grouping days, primarily the Great Eastern, and no doubt there was a need for tank wagons to move this fuel from its source to a suitable loco depot.

[Caley Jim]

If you have any queries or suggestions for 2019, I am happy to take them here, or via PM, or via email to: thepollteam@gmail.com.

Brian, is there a similar poll for 2mm scale/N gauge?

 

Jim

[BMacdermott]

Hello Jim

 

We used to run N and 00 at the same time, but we found that - as most of us are 00 - we couldn't do the subject justice. We haven't run N this year, but the good news is that a team of N modellers is looking to take up the reins in the future.

 

The 00 Poll Team has supplied much of its data to them already (free, gratis and for nothing on a friendly basis) and we hope they will get something off the ground in the not too distant future. All I can say for the moment is that they will no doubt post a thread on RMweb when they see fit.

 

I have copies of the N Results from 2016 (we didn't run in 2017) back to 2012. If you want copies, please drop me a PM or email as noted earlier.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Caley Jim]

Thanks for the response, Brian.  I'll watch for the poll hopefully appearing in due course!

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

The only pre-group bogie tank wagon I'm aware of is this one -

 

Oakbank bogie tank.jpg

 

Built by Hurst Nelson.

I must apologise for giving misleading information to the assembled company.  the vehicle concerned was in fact built by R Y Pickering as witnessed by the diamond shaped builders plate.  Mea culpa.

 

Jim (sackcloth and ashes duly donned.)   

[Edwardian]

Hello Jim

 

We used to run N and 00 at the same time, but we found that - as most of us are 00 - we couldn't do the subject justice. We haven't run N this year, but the good news is that a team of N modellers is looking to take up the reins in the future.

 

The 00 Poll Team has supplied much of its data to them already (free, gratis and for nothing on a friendly basis) and we hope they will get something off the ground in the not too distant future. All I can say for the moment is that they will no doubt post a thread on RMweb when they see fit.

 

I have copies of the N Results from 2016 (we didn't run in 2017) back to 2012. If you want copies, please drop me a PM or email as noted earlier.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

 

I have catholic tastes where pre-Grouping companies are concerned, and, so, my wish list votes cover quite a few Big 4 constituents.  However, I have kept the choices to models I would be serious about acquiring. These are the sort of item that would fit a planned project and that would likely be released in or adaptable to pre-Grouping condition.  Mainly I tend to go for smaller layout locomotives and stock, rather than principal mainline equipment, and items introduced earlier rather than later, e.g. CA would benefit from a back-dated E4, but I have no use for later GE bogie coaches, and the NER layout I want to build will not need Raven Pacifics! Only my GWR choices span eras and cover mainline as well as secondary line subjects, but that is because I have a long term Grouping era project as well.  

 

So, I hope, a discerning selection from each category, each a model I would certainly invest in.  I hope that my votes won't be interpreted as a scattergun spread unrelated to actual future purchases, because it isn't that at all.  

[BMacdermott]

Hello Edwardian

 

The premise of The Poll is that it is for models voters would realistically wish to see made and would buy - and we are sure that you will have admirably adhered to that premise, given that we can't list every item in every detail. That is why we added the paragraph below at the head of many of the categories.

 

All the best

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

It is impossible for us to take into account detailed shed allocations and the vast array of variations within classes over the years such as tender swaps, chimney types, safety valves and liveries. The manufacturers will ‘get as much as they can’ from any model via the use of slip tools and so on. It seems to make commercial sense for them to produce models which span a number of decades and which appeal to a wide audience. Two such examples are: Bachmann’s Earl Class and Hornby’s Adams Radial.