Pre Grouping general discussion

[tomparryharry]

Oooh, we're back to niche again....

 

Realistically, unless you can garner enough people wanting any particular model, no producer will touch it, unless there's enough money in it. So, despite my cravings, I'll await in vain for a Taff Vale Railway 01, or a Port Talbot Railway  0-8-2 tank.

 

It's the same for coaches; unless you're battering a rake of Ratio 4-wheelers, that's about your limit.

 

London Road do some exquisite Taff Vale coaches, but my skills aren't up to do these beauties justice.

 

I like pre-grouping niche, but pre-grouping niche doesn't like me...

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Edwardian]

Oooh, we're back to niche again....

 

 

 

That might be because this is the "Pre Grouping general discussion" thread in the "Pre Grouping - Modelling and Prototype" section of the forum".

 

 

 

Realistically, unless you can garner enough people wanting any particular model, no producer will touch it, unless there's enough money in it. So, despite my cravings, I'll await in vain for a Taff Vale Railway 01, or a Port Talbot Railway  0-8-2 tank.

 

...

 

I like pre-grouping niche, but pre-grouping niche doesn't like me...

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

 

RTR can give you a leg up.  More will be released in time, but it will never deliver more than a fraction of what you might want. You have to be prepared to do some modelling, but if your skill does not yet extend to etched brass construction (mine certainly doesn't), there is plenty that can be achieved by using plastic kits and adapting RTR. 

 

Lack of RTR need not hold you back.  The things that might hold someone back from pre-Grouping are (i) lack of the will to try, (ii) lack of knowledge of the prototype and (iii) lack of imagination.

 

There are plenty of people here who have shown what can be done as beginners, as well as seasoned campaigners.

 

Turn your evident frustration into creative energy!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Oooh, we're back to niche again....

 

Realistically, unless you can garner enough people wanting any particular model, no producer will touch it, unless there's enough money in it. So, despite my cravings, I'll await in vain for a Taff Vale Railway 01, or a Port Talbot Railway  0-8-2 tank.

 

It's the same for coaches; unless you're battering a rake of Ratio 4-wheelers, that's about your limit.

 

London Road do some exquisite Taff Vale coaches, but my skills aren't up to do these beauties justice.

 

I like pre-grouping niche, but pre-grouping niche doesn't like me...

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

Ian,

 

skills are, in my experience, something that can be learned, given the desire and suitable guidance. In fact I prefer to think that what you need to learn are modelling techniques, which are fairly readily explained in simple terms.

 

For guidance, a good  club local or an area group of the EMGS or S4 Society will provide practical help (you don't always have to be a member of the Society to join in).. Then there are forums like RMweb, although you may get what seems like conflicting or confusing advice from time to time. There are some great books available, including 4mm Coach Modelling - Working with Metal Kits  by Stephen Williams, WSP (now out pf print but available s/h).

 

Like all my modelling friends that build from kits (the great majority), we all learned the techniques required because we wanted to go beyond what was available off the shelf.. Yes, there were some failures along the way but these were invariably overcome with outside assistance, be it written, spoken of on screen.

 

If you want Taff Vale carriages and the only option is to build them from kits, then why not give it a try.

 

Jol

[ChrisN]

Pre grouping modelling crept up on me from behind and over powered me.  I had intended to build a 009 layout in 1895, sorry set in 1895, when my son sked me to build a railway for his children to play on.  The only option, yes honestly, was to build the 'feeder' line which in 1895 was the Cambrian Railways. 

There were a few, brass coach kits and one, I am told unbuildable loco kit, sorry one other as well.  I do not do brass, not yet anyway.  To my surprise I have scratchbuilt two coaches, and with the help of an RMWeb friend with a Silhouette cutter have prepared the sides of some others.

Locos have now become available through 3D printing but I still have to work out how to motorise them.

The plan was that next year I learn how to solder, except my plan is running at least two years behind schedule. 

 

So it is possible but it requires some modelling.  I am surprised at what I have achieved so far so that gives me confidence as to what I will be able to do in future.  However, I know some people are not able to do anything but run R-T-R.  Brian, who heads up the Poll team has said on another forum that due to personal circumstances he is not able to make models so has to rely on R-T-R so we have to be careful when saying that everyone can build kits, scratchbuild etc.

 

As for the Poll, one year I voted for a J15 as I knew others wanted it, so when it was produced I felt duty bound to buy one..  (How do I justify it on a Welsh layout?  I don't.  It works, it pulls Thompson coaches so forms the 7:43 passenger train.  It will be replaced in the fulness of time.)  This year it was Dean Coaches, 517, and various Pre grouping Company wagons.  All will get bought if they are ever produced.

 

Finally, thank you Brian and the team for your hard work, and thank you for popping down to this corner of RMWeb t encourage us to vote.  It shows that at least the Poll Team recognises that Pre Grouping exists.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Chris

 

Very many thanks for the kind comments, which are much appreciated and are just about to be copied to The 00 Poll Team via an email.

 

Each year, we conduct a nearly 3-month long, structured review of the entire content and looked long and hard this year at how we could shoe-horn in as many relatively valid Pre-Grouping items as we could. However, we have to strike a balance between ‘completeness’ and making things too complex bearing in mind our audience ranges from beginner to expert. And we have to consider that Andy York has to construct ‘the computerised bits’ for us – the more content, the more time he has to spend.

 

As noted, my wife has MS and I have to be ‘available for duty’ at a moment’s notice. Whilst she is – thankfully – nowhere near the ‘wrong end’ of the spectrum of health, the situation does preclude me being involved with anything that I can’t get out of very quickly.

 

I have made many models in the past and, to my great surprise, some are still running and can ‘hold their own’ against some of my RTR models. Having said that, I probably have more ‘grounded wagon bodies’ on my layout than average from whence kit chassis have fallen apart!

 

The Team has received many emails over the years from ‘less able’ modellers who have perhaps had railway industry accidents or are now living with age-related problems of sight and steadiness thanking us for giving them ‘a voice’.

 

A number of members of The Team are accomplished modellers in their own right or are involved with kits etc so we appreciate that RTR might be seen by some as a ‘dumbing down’ of the hobby - but we take the view that the bigger the hobby is overall, the better it is for us all.

 

Enjoy the voting!

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Penrhos1920]

Oooh, we're back to niche again....

 

Realistically, unless you can garner enough people wanting any particular model, no producer will touch it, unless there's enough money in it. So, despite my cravings, I'll await in vain for a Taff Vale Railway 01, or a Port Talbot Railway  0-8-2 tank...

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

PTR 0-8-2T in original form or rebuilt. Personally I'd like the rebuilt version.

 

I can't understand why the TVR O1 isn't included in the poll when you think that one has survived into preservation. Okay it didn't survive on the mainline as long as the listed A class, but it did do industrial which is often popular.

[Regularity]

It’s also very close to the LYR class of 0-6-2T with 4’6” (nominal) wheels, built at Kitson’s under Barton Wright’s regime.

Kitson built the TVR engines, too.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It’s also very close to the LYR class of 0-6-2T with 4’6” (nominal) wheels, built at Kitson’s under Barton Wright’s regime.

Kitson built the TVR engines, too.

LRM have a TVR L/K conversion kit for their L&Y Barton Wright Ironclad 0-6-0. Unfortunately it is listed in the L&Y section of the website, so probably not too obvious.

[Northroader]

Mr.Penrhos, Sir, seeing you on this thread may I just say thanks for the work you’re doing with your GWR coaches site. It’s a marvellous resource, I was using it just before tea to help plan a couple of builds.Best wishes with it and thanks again.

[tomparryharry]

Hello Folks,

 

Apologies from here. I seem to have strayed off a little. I thought it was an RTR poll. Silly me! I realised some time ago that if I wanted anything remotely authentic pre-grouping, it would be down the modelling route. I've acquired a goodly amount of Finecast U1's as a starting point for a fleet of Taff Vale & Rhondda & Swansea Bay locomotives, which if I turned out one every year, it should last me to 2050 or so.

 

Modelling is a problem for me; I've lost a great deal of manual dexterity post stroke. I know full well what a locomotive looks like. Shape, form & operation. More importantly, I'm minded enough to appreciate the hours of skill required to turn a lump of base material into a miniature icon. Some modellers on here blow my mind, and full credit to them. My limits as such are limited to 'plonking' a model onto tracks, and enjoy watch one of them run.

 

It's a bit frustrating for me admiring someone else's work at the moment: I want to do that as well!

 

Keep going folks; I derive a great deal of inspiration from the posts on here.

 

Have a great weekend,

 

Ian.

[Edwardian]

Apologies from here. I seem to have strayed off a little. I thought it was an RTR poll.

 

 

Well that does explain a lot!

 

I wish you the very best with your modelling endeavours, which I'm sure we'd be interested to see here, and hope the pictures below provide good cheer!

[Miss Prism]

I'm going to snaffle that crest pic for gwr.org, it's better than the one I've got at the moment!

[Edwardian]

I'm going to snaffle that crest pic for gwr.org, it's better than the one I've got at the moment!

 

Feel free.

[tomparryharry]

Cymru A Fy A Chymru A Fydd

 

"Wales has been and Wales will be"

 

Very roughly translated from my schoolboy Welsh.

 

In fairness to the 01 tank mentioned earlier, it's a bit of a dogs breakfast. It's had rebuilds in Western, Longmoor & NCB days. The loco is a real archaeological case and fair play to the Gwili Railway & the NRM, trying to get some semblance of order.

 

Ian.

[John_Miles]

If someone does build a Taff 01 I hope they do their research. For example the preserved loco has buffers from an 08 and various other anomalies such as the handrails and the smokebox door. That said, it was great to see it running on the Pontypool and Blaenavon recently and much better an almost correct loco than nothing.

[tomparryharry]

If someone does build a Taff 01 I hope they do their research. For example the preserved loco has buffers from an 08 and various other anomalies such as the handrails and the smokebox door. That said, it was great to see it running on the Pontypool and Blaenavon recently and much better an almost correct loco than nothing.

That particular locomotive (TVR 85) is an 02 class. Slightly different with boilers, etc.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

Some of you may like to know that we have today published Results - The Wishlist Poll 2018. The link is below.

 

If you have any questions etc, they may be best directed to me there for the benefit of others. Thanks.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139197-results-the-wishlist-poll-2018/page-1

[Jol Wilkinson]

I think that the results of  the poll managed by Brain and  friends highlights some interesting trends for pre-group prototypes. The overall top 50 had about nine pre-group entries, with a strong leaning towards the and west of London. Does this indicate that the NER and GNR enthusiasts are comfortably full and that those whose interests lie west of the Pennines and North of Euston have gone to sleep?

 

The success of the NRM Stirling Single shows that people will buy the less common prototype models, even if it is out of area/period for them. So there should be hope for those that want pre-group locos, especially if they are in more complex liveries. However, it also seems that the demand for  one off "oddballs" remains high. The MR Big Bertha, GWR Great Bear, LMS Turbomotive, LNER W1, LNER U1 Beyer Garrat. If I were a RTR manufacturer or commissioner, I think I would be rather confused. Better to invest in a common but mundane 0-6-0 goods or mixed traffic loco or a more complex and therefore expensive "unusual" prototype?

[Edwardian]

I think that the results of  the poll managed by Brain and  friends highlights some interesting trends for pre-group prototypes. The overall top 50 had about nine pre-group entries, with a strong leaning towards the and west of London. Does this indicate that the NER and GNR enthusiasts are comfortably full and that those whose interests lie west of the Pennines and North of Euston have gone to sleep?

 

The success of the NRM Stirling Single shows that people will buy the less common prototype models, even if it is out of area/period for them. So there should be hope for those that want pre-group locos, especially if they are in more complex liveries. However, it also seems that the demand for  one off "oddballs" remains high. The MR Big Bertha, GWR Great Bear, LMS Turbomotive, LNER W1, LNER U1 Beyer Garrat. If I were a RTR manufacturer or commissioner, I think I would be rather confused. Better to invest in a common but mundane 0-6-0 goods or mixed traffic loco or a more complex and therefore expensive "unusual" prototype?

 

I have a theory that odd and often pretty useless locomotives have a strange appeal.  Pre-Fell, with which arcane piece of junk many modellers seem obsessed, constantly calling for a RTR version, there can have been few more useless prototypes to a modeller than the GER Decapod.  I bet if someone made it, it would sell out.  The market has its perverse side. 

 

Next to the fascinating one-off must come the glamorous express engine in the hearts of many collectors and hobbyists.  

 

Personally, I prefer more useful prototypes.  Many 4mm layouts, particularly in domestic settings, have to be small. A secondary mainline or branch might be more within reach than the WCML for most. I would prefer to see more of the locomotives that ran on such lines, and which often also ran on principal mainlines, which were never exclusively populated by the latest generation of top link locomotives. 

 

You can never have enough 6-coupled goods engines, I reckon.  A decent an pre-group Dean Goods, an early condition Johnson, something for the Brighton and a Cauliflower, DX or Coal Engine for the North Western would all be better uses of resources than a lot of what gets produced (IMHO).

 

Also valued would be cascaded express locomotives or locos never intended to be flyers.  But that is not perceived as glamorous enough by manufacturers, or, perhaps, many consumers. While the Stirling Single is a magnificent model that I am pleased to own, something like a GNR 2-4-0 might have been more useful. One of the logical candidates for a follow-up to the Single must be Hardwicke, but, for me, though I won't complain at a Precedent, a Waterloo/Whitworth would be even better. 

 

The answer in the long term still seems to me to be to keep going until I am able to build and paint London Road and other such kits!

 

I did note that GW toplights topped the coach list and that wagons for 3 pre-Grouping companies topped the wagon poll.

[BMacdermott]

I think that the results of  the poll managed by Brain and  friends highlights some interesting trends for pre-group prototypes. The overall top 50 had about nine pre-group entries, with a strong leaning towards the and west of London. Does this indicate that the NER and GNR enthusiasts are comfortably full and that those whose interests lie west of the Pennines and North of Euston have gone to sleep?

 

The success of the NRM Stirling Single shows that people will buy the less common prototype models, even if it is out of area/period for them. So there should be hope for those that want pre-group locos, especially if they are in more complex liveries. However, it also seems that the demand for  one off "oddballs" remains high. The MR Big Bertha, GWR Great Bear, LMS Turbomotive, LNER W1, LNER U1 Beyer Garrat. If I were a RTR manufacturer or commissioner, I think I would be rather confused. Better to invest in a common but mundane 0-6-0 goods or mixed traffic loco or a more complex and therefore expensive "unusual" prototype?

 

Hello Jol

 

We feel that the majority of makers will be far too 'savvy' to be anywhere near 'confused' by our Poll results. The Poll is a chance for modellers and collectors to indicate what they would like to see made - if our results don't tally with their myriad of market research source information, or they feel they would encounter too many production problems, then even the most consistently high-voted item will never reach shops.

 

I have appended what we say in The Guide below.

 

Of the 92 new items listed this year, about 53 were in the Pre-Group area. They fared:

10 in High Polling 

12 in Middle Polling

31 in Low Polling

 

We don't intend taking any out as we try to attain consistency year-on-year - but we do have to be 'selective' in anything that might go in new for 2019.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

Does The Poll Team expect ‘the top items’ to be made?

We would ask voters to appreciate that manufacturers lay plans anything up to three years or more in advance and have to continually balance requests against their current models and proposed portfolios – as well as those of their competitors. To us, it’s a hobby; to them, it’s a commercial decision.

[D9020 Nimbus]

As someone with limited available space, my OO interests are largely with smaller locomotives (I have other interests in narrow gauge and N gauge, neither of which the poll addresses). As it stands, I must confess to being a little disappointed that smaller locos didn't fare better. I'd like a J69, for instance, but think it unlikely that either Bachmann or Hornby will make one—both already have a LNER 0-6-0T; perhaps Dapol may oblige in the future.

 

There are a number of locos which might have been made in the past but weren't. In particular Airfix had the idea of producing a balanced range, and had been intending the ex-LSWR O2 and G6; the former has only been made as a Kernow exclusive, the latter has never been made as yet. I'm not so sure that "balance" is something considered now.

 

It seems to me that commissioners such as Hattons, Kernow, Rails and TMC are being more imaginative than the "big 2". Bachmann in particular seem to be very cautious—consider the number of models which are previous ones retooled. Perhaps one issue is that most of the more obvious "targets" have already been claimed, and the commissioners are quickly going for other high polling targets. At the current rate, there may be few if any potentially good selling locos left in OO very soon!

[Edwardian]

As someone with limited available space, my OO interests are largely with smaller locomotives (I have other interests in narrow gauge and N gauge, neither of which the poll addresses). As it stands, I must confess to being a little disappointed that smaller locos didn't fare better. I'd like a J69, for instance, but think it unlikely that either Bachmann or Hornby will make one—both already have a LNER 0-6-0T; perhaps Dapol may oblige in the future.

 

There are a number of locos which might have been made in the past but weren't. In particular Airfix had the idea of producing a balanced range, and had been intending the ex-LSWR O2 and G6; the former has only been made as a Kernow exclusive, the latter has never been made as yet. I'm not so sure that "balance" is something considered now.

 

It seems to me that commissioners such as Hattons, Kernow, Rails and TMC are being more imaginative than the "big 2". Bachmann in particular seem to be very cautious—consider the number of models which are previous ones retooled. Perhaps one issue is that most of the more obvious "targets" have already been claimed, and the commissioners are quickly going for other high polling targets. At the current rate, there may be few if any potentially good selling locos left in OO very soon!

 

I admire the choices of TMC (O Class/G5), Rails (the Caley 812), and Hattons (P).  I do note the fact that the P seems to have been 'remaindered', suggesting supply out-stripping demand for such a minor class, however attractive.  The Terrier is a better bet for a manufacturer, as it is useful for the modeller.  Fortunately ....

[Worsdell forever]

Don't mean to blow my own trumpet but three of the four winners in the EMGS AGM competition were pre-grouping...

 

The fourth was a very nice GNR signalbox but as depicted later in life.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3252-worsdell-forevers-workbench-loads-of-north-eastern-stuff/?p=3393159

[Andy Hayter]

Well done.

 

Slowly we are collectively moving forward where our period is becoming more and more recognised as worthy of modelling.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Well done.

 

Slowly we are collectively moving forward where our period is becoming more and more recognised as worthy of modelling.

Amongst model makers I think that has long been the case. Go to a major "finescale", S4 Society or EMGS event and you will invariably see 4mm pre group layouts and models. Pre-group kits have been available for a decades, going back to Gem, K's, etc.

 

The RTR buyers are starting to see the attraction of the pre-group period, but still want to buy their locos and stock ready made. The various well supported wish lists are evidence of that. Although things are getting better, there is still a very long way to go before any pre-group railway will be well represented with locos and stock.