Some questions on 16-ton mineral wagons

[Ruston]

Is there some sort of idiot's guide to them? I've got several books about wagons, including the 'half million' book but it's still not clear to me what body styles go with what arrangment of doors and brakes...

 

I want to number one of my wagons (kit built) but am not sure what diagram it is to be able to look it up in that book. It's the PECO 7mm kit but I've scratchbuilt the end door as the fabricated type, instead of the pressed steel type as supplied. I've also altered the brake gear so it has brakes on one side only. The kit has bottom doors but I'm going to cover these over so up to now I guess it would be a Dia.1/108 only my problem is that it doesn't have the top flaps over the doors - so what diagram is it now?

 

 

Also, I was just wondering if anyone had modelled a Dia. 1/116 wagon or if there are any photos of the prototype? It would be interesting to see how the aluminium bodies weathered and would make an interesting contrast to the usual steel-bodied weathering.

 

Thanks

 

 

[Fat Controller]

Your best bet would be to go to the relevant pages of Paul Bartlett's site, and have a dig:

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineral

[chrisf]

If you can track down the early issues of Modellers Backtrack there is an excellent series by Peter Fidczuk which leaves very few questions unanswered.

 

Chris

[CloggyDog]

You could get away with it as a later rebodied d 1/108 (new bodies without top flaps), though I recall those date from 1968-ish onwards.

 

Not sure they were allocated a new diagram number?

[Poor Old Bruce]

You could get away with it as a later rebodied d 1/108 (new bodies without top flaps), though I recall those date from 1968-ish onwards.

 

Not sure they were allocated a new diagram number?

I believe they were given a new diagram number, either 1/098 or 1/099.

[PGH]

If you can track down the early issues of Modellers Backtrack there is an excellent series by Peter Fidczuk which leaves very few questions unanswered.

 

Chris

 

The article appeared in three parts, Part 2 was in the Oct/Nov 1991 issue so I would assume that the other two were in the preceding and following issues.

 

I believe the Peco kit is based on Diag. 1/102 and, according to the article, some were built with fabricated doors instead of pressed steel, but I think they would all have originally had bottom doors.

Edited November 27, 2013 by PGH

[hmrspaul]

The only articles/books that come near to being accurate are

Fidczuk, Peter. (1991a) The 16ton steel mineral wagon, part one Prewar and wartime designs.   Modellers Backtrack vol. 1 (part 3) pp 124 - 133.

     

Drawings - official of the slope sided mineral, Hurst Nelson 14/16t private owner (435), ex MWT/SNCF diag. 1/112 (119).

 

Fidczuk, Peter. (1991b) The 16ton steel mineral wagon, part two Later Pre-Nationalisation    developments.  Modellers Backtrack vol. 1 (part 4) pp 148 - 156.

                                      

Drawings - LNER diag. 188/BR diag. 1/103 ex MOT rivet (439); BR diag. 1/105 ex MOT rivet (418); BR diag. 1/102 ex WD welded (123).

 

Fidczuk, Peter. (1991c) The 16ton steel mineral wagon, part 3: Developments under British Railways. Modellers Backtrack vol. 1 (part 5) pp 220 - 230.

 

Drawings - BR diag. 1/108 welded (116); BR diag. 1/109 riveted (117); BR diag. 1/108 rebody welded.

 

The full details weren't recorded, builders changed details such as top door or not part way through builds. The records on what went to Europe and came back are not so good, and then there are Private Trader 16ton steel mineral wagons - although there may be details of those in the registration books.

 

There are funnies which we cannot account for, such as the U channel supports on the underframes http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralweld/e392ba513

 

Paul Bartlett

[Ruston]

You could get away with it as a later rebodied d 1/108 (new bodies without top flaps), though I recall those date from 1968-ish onwards.

 

Not sure they were allocated a new diagram number?

Hmmm... I think I've messed up. I've seen pics of those but not realised they were rebodied. I've read a bit more now and have realised that you got wagons with no top flap but with double brakes and bottom doors and wagons with a top flap, single brakes and no bottom doors but not until later, when they were re-bodied did you get wagons with no top flap, no bottom doors and single brakes.

 

It seems that the re-bodied wagons also had the brake/body arrangment the opposite way round to the originals so I can't really say it's a re-body and if they started to re-body them in 1968 then that's later than I wanted to set my layout.

 

I suppose I could have a go at hacking the body to put top flaps in. Or just forget about it and lose it among my other wagons.

 

Thanks to all who answered.

[Ruston]

Now it's a standard 1/108.

[Bernard Lamb]

If you can track down the early issues of Modellers Backtrack there is an excellent series by Peter Fidczuk which leaves very few questions unanswered.

 

Chris

Unless you want to get involved with the AVB variants.

Plus the rider of a photo to give an idea of the condition at the date to be modelled.

Bernard

[giz]

I built mine as a rebody using a Parkside end door and brake shoes. I also filed off the lip at the bottom of the body side as the rebodies were rounded off.

 

 

Parkside will sell the door mouldings separately at a reasonable price.

[Fat Controller]

The re-bodied wagons had the new bodies fitted to the old chassis regardless of the way the body was fitted to the original- they would arrive at one end of the line with end-doors at one end or the other, but the new bodies weren't turned around to fit according to the way the old ones were aligned.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

On 27/11/2013 at 22:56, Fat Controller said:

The re-bodied wagons had the new bodies fitted to the old chassis regardless of the way the body was fitted to the original- they would arrive at one end of the line with end-doors at one end or the other, but the new bodies weren't turned around to fit according to the way the old ones were aligned.

That's my understanding too, although I may have messed up, in a similar way to Ruston. Unless one can get hold of the - definitive - articles in Backtrack, it's often hard to ascertain certain details. I wouldn't be surprised if, as you mention, when at various post production wagon works for repairs and certain amount of cannibalisation went on too.

 

An aspect that has confused me is the use of Morton type brakes, Eg were any fitted with with shoes on both sides, thus four shoes per vehicle?

 

One thing is for sure, with so many of them, the variations - after repairs - maybe almost endless?

Edited November 7, 2021 by CME and Bottlewasher

[brossard]

 

1 hour ago, CME and Bottlewasher said:

 

An aspect that has confused me is the use of Morton type brakes, Eg were any fitted with with shoes on both sides, thus four shoes per vehicle?

 

One thing is for sure, with so many of them, the variations - after repairs - maybe almost endless?

 

I built two, 1/108 and 1/109 and these had Morton brakes with shoes on just one side.  No bottom doors.

 

I also built two examples of ex LMS steel wagons.  These had independent brakes on both sides.  The reason for this (or one I suppose) is that they had bottom doors.

 

Just for fun, I built a very old kit of a MCV.  This was great fun since I had to make a lot of the underframe parts.  Mine is a clasp brake version.

 

From what I have read the mods seem to be endless as you say so I just did a bog standard configuration.

 

John

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, CME and Bottlewasher said:

Eg were any fitted with with shoes on both sides, thus four shoes per vehicle?

 

in addition to the bottom door 4 shoe independent brakes that John has mentioned, I think when they started to rebody them, some were given 4 shoe fitted brakes.

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Hal Nail

[br2975]

19 hours ago, CME and Bottlewasher said:

 

An aspect that has confused me is the use of Morton type brakes, Eg were any fitted with with shoes on both sides, thus four shoes per vehicle?

 

As a 'very general rule of thumb' Morton brake gear would be fitted to those wagons built without bottom doors, as the doors would have been fouled by the brake gear cross-shaft.

.

Wagons built with bottom doors would generally be fitted with independent 'either side brakes'  i.e. two brake shoes per side, but the mechanism on one side was independent of the mechanism on the other side of the wagon; therefore the bottom doors could be opened and not strike any brake gear.

.

In the photos below;

 

B34595 is fitted with bottom doors, and either side brakes, (note also the lack of top flaps, and pressed steel end door)

.

B81569 is not fitted with bottom doors, but has Morton brake gear, the cross shaft is clearly visible beneath the wagon, as is the 'clutch' on the side of the wagon fitted with brake shoes.

.

Of course, once rebodying started, many ( I'll only say 'many' - never say 'all' ) wagons lost their bottom doors, so rebodied wagons without bottom doors could then be seen on both types of brake gear.

.

Amongst some 300,000 wagons, there will always be exceptions.

Edited November 8, 2021 by br2975

[hmrspaul]

2 hours ago, br2975 said:

 

.

In the photos below;

 

B34595 is fitted with bottom doors, and either side brakes, (note also the lack of top flaps, and pressed steel end door)

.

 

 

 

This is a good example for the Peco 7mm model. 

 

Some of the new readers need to go back and read the earliest comments in this topic. And then get the Backtrack articles.

 

Paul

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineral

 

 

[CME and Bottlewasher]

On 07/11/2021 at 14:44, brossard said:

 

 

I built two, 1/108 and 1/109 and these had Morton brakes with shoes on just one side.  No bottom doors.

 

I also built two examples of ex LMS steel wagons.  These had independent brakes on both sides.  The reason for this (or one I suppose) is that they had bottom doors.

 

Just for fun, I built a very old kit of a MCV.  This was great fun since I had to make a lot of the underframe parts.  Mine is a clasp brake version.

 

From what I have read the mods seem to be endless as you say so I just did a bog standard configuration.

 

John

Thanks John, much obliged. I did find some photo evidence - I think - if correct, Eg those without bottom doors had ended up being fitted with Morton brakes.

On 07/11/2021 at 17:20, Hal Nail said:

in addition to the bottom door 4 shoe independent brakes that John has mentioned, I think when they started to rebody them, some were given 4 shoe fitted brakes.

 

Every day is a school day for me, it does seem that when bottom doors were abandoned it allowed for the cross bar/Morton brakes.

On 08/11/2021 at 08:32, br2975 said:

As a 'very general rule of thumb' Morton brake gear would be fitted to those wagons built without bottom doors, as the doors would have been fouled by the brake gear cross-shaft.

.

Wagons built with bottom doors would generally be fitted with independent 'either side brakes'  i.e. two brake shoes per side, but the mechanism on one side was independent of the mechanism on the other side of the wagon; therefore the bottom doors could be opened and not strike any brake gear.

.

In the photos below;

 

B34595 is fitted with bottom doors, and either side brakes, (note also the lack of top flaps, and pressed steel end door)

.

B81569 is not fitted with bottom doors, but has Morton brake gear, the cross shaft is clearly visible beneath the wagon, as is the 'clutch' on the side of the wagon fitted with brake shoes.

.

Of course, once rebodying started, many ( I'll only say 'many' - never say 'all' ) wagons lost their bottom doors, so rebodied wagons without bottom doors could then be seen on both types of brake gear.

.

Amongst some 300,000 wagons, there will always be exceptions.

That's really well described, beautifully put and illustrated - thanks, I can now justify a bit of variety in my 'fleet', thanks for the info, much appreciated.

On 08/11/2021 at 11:11, hmrspaul said:

 

This is a good example for the Peco 7mm model. 

 

Some of the new readers need to go back and read the earliest comments in this topic. And then get the Backtrack articles.

 

Paul

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineral

 

 

Hi Paul, thank you, I'm slowly getting up to speed on the subject, struggling with reading and concentration but getting there, this is a fascinating thread.

 

I did come across a photo of a diagram 1/108 apparently without vacuum brakes but painted in bauxite? Things can get confusing for the average modeller ha ha!

 

I think that the Backtrack articles might be like trying to obtain hen's teeth - I did a search for an hour or so and drew a blank.

 

Thanks again everyone for your wisdom and knowledge, all much appreciated.

 

All the best!

 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Fat Controller]

11 hours ago, CME and Bottlewasher said:

Thanks John, much obliged. I did find some photo evidence - I think - if correct, Eg those without bottom doors had ended up being fitted with Morton brakes.

Every day is a school day for me, it does seem that when bottom doors were abandoned it allowed for the cross bar/Morton brakes.

That's really well described, beautifully put and illustrated - thanks, I can now justify a bit of variety in my 'fleet', thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Hi Paul, thank you, I'm slowly getting up to speed on the subject, struggling with reading and concentration but getting there, this is a fascinating thread.

 

I did come across a photo of a diagram 1/108 apparently without vacuum brakes but painted in bauxite? Things can get confusing for the average modeller ha ha!

 

I think that the Backtrack articles might be like trying to obtain hen's teeth - I did a search for an hour or so and drew a blank.

 

Thanks again everyone for your wisdom and knowledge, all much appreciated.

 

All the best!

 

 

I remember finding a couple of the 1/108s with 8-shoe brake gear and no cylinders but painted grey, when British Steel paid me to note wagon details. Oddly, when there was a campaign to fit unfitted ones, they went straight for the Morton ones. This despite there being a fairly large number of the 8-shoe ones, which only needed cylinders and pipes.

[Ruston]

It's strange to see a topic that I started almost 8 years ago dragged up again. I've learned a lot more about 16-ton minerals since.

 

44 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I remember finding a couple of the 1/108s with 8-shoe brake gear and no cylinders but painted grey, when British Steel paid me to note wagon details. Oddly, when there was a campaign to fit unfitted ones, they went straight for the Morton ones. This despite there being a fairly large number of the 8-shoe ones, which only needed cylinders and pipes.

Weren't the 8-shoe ones originally designed to be fitted but not all were? I've read somewhere about the brake gear fouling certain tipping gear and that's why no more were built and, presumably, why they went for the Morton ones when they decided to fit more with vac gear.

 

Since I changed from 7mm to 4mm scale I've built and modified a few and it's fair to say the 16-ton mineral is my favourite wagon for modelling and weathering projects.

 

Variations on the Airfix kit.

 

8-shoe VB with Dowty buffers.

8-shoe VB with OLEO buffers.

8-shoe unfitted with OLEO buffers.

4-shoe VB.

Morton unfitted.

Morton unfitted, replated and top flaps removed.

Bachmann altered to Morton-braked unfitted rebody.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Ruston

[Fat Controller]

A lovely selection there; and that's before you start with odd inscriptions

[br2975]

For the modelling of 16 ton mineral wagons, I can do no better than refer you to;

.

https://windcutter.wordpress.com

.

And click on

(i)

"Page 108" and

(ii)

"Minfit Methodology"

Edited November 10, 2021 by br2975

[CME and Bottlewasher]

On 10/11/2021 at 11:34, Fat Controller said:

I remember finding a couple of the 1/108s with 8-shoe brake gear and no cylinders but painted grey, when British Steel paid me to note wagon details. Oddly, when there was a campaign to fit unfitted ones, they went straight for the Morton ones. This despite there being a fairly large number of the 8-shoe ones, which only needed cylinders and pipes.

That's interesting and perhaps we'll never know why - I came across similar conundrums in the railways but in different areas of operations when I worked for them.

 

A photo (hereunder at the bottom of the Post) of one of my previous efforts (nearly twenty years old). Not a 16 tonner, but a white elephant, the 24.5T - that, so I'm led to believe, wouldn't fit under coal shutes - what were they thinking of?!

On 10/11/2021 at 12:18, Ruston said:

It's strange to see a topic that I started almost 8 years ago dragged up again. I've learned a lot more about 16-ton minerals since.

 

Weren't the 8-shoe ones originally designed to be fitted but not all were? I've read somewhere about the brake gear fouling certain tipping gear and that's why no more were built and, presumably, why they went for the Morton ones when they decided to fit more with vac gear.

 

Since I changed from 7mm to 4mm scale I've built and modified a few and it's fair to say the 16-ton mineral is my favourite wagon for modelling and weathering projects.

 

Variations on the Airfix kit.

 

8-shoe VB with Dowty buffers.

8-shoe VB with OLEO buffers.

8-shoe unfitted with OLEO buffers.

4-shoe VB.

Morton unfitted.

Morton unfitted, replated and top flaps removed.

Bachmann altered to Morton-braked unfitted rebody.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lovely cross section and variety, all superbly modelled too!

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Ruston]

On 10/11/2021 at 12:18, Ruston said:

8-shoe VB with Dowty buffers.

What an idiot! I've just noticed that I haven't painted the white stripe on the side. The brake gear safety loops are also missing.  It's back into the works for that one.

[Hal Nail]

162 pages of prototype and modelling inspiration here: