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Given its the centenary of the start of WW1 and by the summer there will be five (count 'em) RTR locos in 00 available which ran on the R.O.D. my mind has turned to a small layout-ette based on one of the outstanding photos in William Aves book on the R.O.D.  I know that apart from the French wagons and coaches used there were thousands, of wagons especially, built in Britiain and taken across to France, many of which, like the locos, later returned to this country and spent many useful years with various companies.  But which?  And  which are currently available in rtr or kit form from which manufacturer?  As well as the well known rectanks and warflats there were many, many humble open coal wagons and vans carrying explosives and the myriad other supplies shipped across the channel.  What is available?

 

Finally will any of the available locos, do you think, see a R.O.D. livery on them in the next few years?  And will anyone produce R.O.D. transfers?

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1ngram,

 

Cross checking the ROD book with the Model Rail Model and Kit directory for 2013, the eight available loco's I can identify are:

 

GWR Dean 2301 0-6-0 by Hornby

 

GWR Churchward 43XX  by Bachmann

 

GWR Robinson 30xx by Bachmann

 

Southern Drummond 700 0-6- by OO Works

 

Southern Billinton E4 by Bachmamm (this year)

 

LNER Stirling/Ivatt J4 by London Road

 

LNER Worsdell J15 by PDK

 

LNER Worsdell T1 by 52F Models

 

I too am planning a small layout based on the ROD and light railways and have the same problem, I don't know what standard gauge rolling stock was used and what is available.

 

Bachmann and Hornby will no doubt release their loco's in limited edition ROD livery and numbering.

 

I have a few questions of my own to add to yours:

  • Does anyone know of an OO gauge versions of the French 50 Hommes/8 Chevaux (50 men/8 horses) box van's (braked and unbraked) so common in wartime images of the ROD?
  • Can anyone point me in the right direction for a book of French and Belgian rolling stock of the period?
  • Does anyone know of drawings for the Belgian SNCV Type 21 metre gauge locomotive? The UK built 50 locomotives and 1200 wagons to operate on the metre gauge around Ypres. I believe they were Type 21's as that type is referred to in the books by Bishop and Davies.
  • Can anyone recommend passenger coaches for the period to make up Haig's and Gough's command trains and add coaches to the ambulance train coming from Bachmann?

Being in Australia and not having the ability to wander into decent UK, French or Belgian railway bookshops that may be able to help me, I would greatly appreciate any one pointing me in the right direction.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Chris H

Edited by Chris hndrsn

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Chris

It might be worth reposting this request in the French prototype section of RMWeb.

 

Personally I am not aware of any books that cover the prototypes you are looking for, and if there is one it must be a long time out of print. 50 men/8 horses sounds a cosy squeeze, given that in the interwar era, it was reduced to 40 men/8 horses (it is either or and not both)for four wheel stock.

 

Beyond that I cannot help much - it seems an area not covered much in France - but maybe that will change in the next 4 years.

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Aves book on the R.O.D. is very good on the locos which operated in France but says practically nothing on coaches and wagons.  I've seen nothing recent on either of these but there was a series of articles in "The Railway Magazine" in 1932-3 on  "The Rolling Stock of the Railway Operating Division, Royal Engineers 1916-19". The earlier parts deal with the locos but  Part  VI  of February 1933 deals with "British Passenger Coaches sent Overseas" especially hospital trains.  Even better Part VII of March 1933 is entitled "British Wagon Stock sent Overseas" and has lots of information and lists of wagon giving types, sources, numbers etc. These issues crop up on Ebay for about a fiver quite often.

 

Alas there are no photos.  In fact Aves only shows one good photo in his book of British open wagons with WD markings.  But such photos must exist somewhere given the extensive coverage the R.O.D. received at the time.  I've even got a recent DVD of films of the R.O.D. and other British and American involvement in France.  (Even worse of course is the almost complete lack of any photos at all of British Railways in Britain during the war due to wartime censorship.  Its revealing that a photo heavy magazine like Railway Archive when it did a series on the Jellicoe trains during WW1 had to illustrate the series of articles with photos taken either before or after the war.)  Was there the same level of censorship in France?  I recall when a few years back I was building a Russian layout of the period, finding dozens of photos of Russian troops in or in front of Russian wagons/coaches/trains, often drinking tea, on the Net, even on Ebay, so maybe you can find the same information about France. 

 

As for models of the wagons themselves not only hasn't anyone done a 4mm version of the French van but I've never come across even a H0 version - and as a H0 modeller I've looked for one.  The same goes for French coaches  - the only ones I have come across are old Jouef ones and they are for he wrong French railway of the time.

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I was in the French National Railway Museum at Mulhouse less than a month ago and their WW1 rolling stock consists of a single Warflat, built by Leeds Forge and parked in such a dark and crowded corner that I couldn't even photograph it.  

 

As 1ngram has said there's quite a bit of information on hospital trains from the UK and on the ferry vans used in the latter stages of the war (which is my own interest) but not a lot else and almost no photographs from France.  I've seen pictures of the ROD ferry wagons lined up at Southampton for shipping to Belgium but they were from 1921.  The NRM have drawings of the modifications made to these by the SBAFB but you're looking at scratchbuilding if you want any.

 

Beamish has an LNWR pattern van marked up for the ROD and available as a kit from David Geen, but I don't know whether it would be pre or post WW 1. There are also odd references in works on UK companies (Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol .1 has an illustration of an open wagon built by the GC for the ROD, for example) but nothing all in one place.

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What about the Bachmann 7-Plank wagon 'Societe Belgo-Anglaise' that came free earlier this year on a Model rail sub?  I know this must be post war but I'm assuming it means they were used on the ferries during the war as well.  The Railway Magazine article lists lots and lots of British wagons from lots of British pre-grouping railways that were commandeered for use on the R.O.D. as well as thousands built in Britain specially for France.  For example wagons 62001-62050 were Great Central 10 ton open wagons with oil axleboxes.  The article lists about a hundred different types of wagons that ended up on the R.O.D. in France from humble opens to bogied tank carriers and it must be possible(?) for those who know about such things to match the wagons on the list with known types for each of the British railway companies they came from.  Anyone (like me) wanting to model the R.O.D. could then determine whether models of these, or kits, existed.

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Based on the picture about a quarter of the way down the page here. I haven't had one in my hand but it looked like a fairly near miss using a standard RCH body: the ironwork is slightly different, there are through air pipes, the buffers are nothing like RCH standard, but it would make a hell of a good start. I used a Slaters kit for mine.

 

rod_open_zps9bff462f.jpg

 

Note that the MR one is correct in that part, if not all, of the lettering should be red.

 

There are illustrations in the book you recommended me some time ago showing the ROD livery and there are proper drawings in the NRM collection.

 

I can think of GC and Midland types used by the ROD and illustrated in wagon books I have but there must be many more. I'd be that almost all would need scratchbuilding, though.

Edited by jwealleans
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As for models of the wagons themselves not only hasn't anyone done a 4mm version of the French van but I've never come across even a H0 version - and as a H0 modeller I've looked for one.  The same goes for French coaches  - the only ones I have come across are old Jouef ones and they are for he wrong French railway of the time.

 

If I can find the plans of the correct French 50 men/8 horses vans I may be able to get them converted into a CAD/CAM for 3d printing.

 

Cheers,

Chris

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If I can find the plans of the correct French 50 men/8 horses vans I may be able to get them converted into a CAD/CAM for 3d printing.

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

I think it was 40 men or 8 horses; so my grandfather used to say, and he saw them in service. When the Germans used these vans for the Deportation, they would put 120+ people per van.

The size was specified by the French army following the debacle of the France-Prussian war. I found this weight diagram on a French site:-

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4832&start=45  It's one with a guard's lookout, so not standard, but if you make it symetrical around the centre line, you should have the leading dimensions. It would appear that there wasn't one design to start off with- the railways simply being obliged to paint the nominal capacity- but then standardisation moved in with the advent of the OCEM, a sort of French Railway Clearing House, though more concerned with engineering standards and compatability than with revenue apportionment.

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Worth having a look at AMF87 to see if there's anything worth pursuing? His prices can be a bit eyewatering but I'm told the kits are pretty good. The very existence of the kits suggests that drawings and/or photographs exist.

 

Has anyone tried the SNCF Society? I obtained some decent drawings from a magazine article when I was building a French ferry van a couple of years ago.

 

This is a bit late for what you want, but may be of use to someone: this is at Langeais in the Loire Valley and was photographed in 2009.

 

langeais_zpscf6b43a9.jpg

Edited by jwealleans
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Older and scruffier. Seen at Richelieu in September 2011.

 

Nick

 

post-6746-0-76902100-1400075787.jpg

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My F-i-L lives not far away and used to call in occasionally. There's nothing left at all there now, apparently. I hope whatever was left when they finally closed was saved.

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Yes, apart from those wagons and some narrow gauge track panels, there was very little there in 2011. Quite a shock after my previous visit in 2008.

 

Nick

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Worth having a look at AMF87 to see if there's anything worth pursuing? His prices can be a bit eyewatering but I'm told the kits are pretty good. The very existence of the kits suggests that drawings and/or photographs exist.

 

Has anyone tried the SNCF Society? I obtained some decent drawings from a magazine article when I was building a French ferry van a couple of years ago.

 

 

 

Jonathan,

 

Thank you very much for pointing me to AMF87, the Euro price is eye watering for me! But a few intriguing wagons popped up. I am taking liberty to post the images of the wagons from the AMF87 website and translated extracts from the website as well.

 

First is a WD well wagon (AMF kits K220 and K221) which was produced in a short and long version: the translation from AMF87 states: "These lowered cars were built for the British War Department during the First World War, arrived in France in 1918, several specimens were embedded in Park Co. North with 2 styles here reproduced 13.2 m and 17.7 m (which make a very long car for the time), some of these cars were modified wagon obviously central. All had a very long career and experienced for most registration UIC." Comment: I suspect these wagons would have been introduced for carriage of the Mk IV and Mk IV tadpole tanks, the tadpole being noticeably longer than the MkIV.

 

The next is a 20 tonne metal van (AMF kit K240), the site states: "These cars were built in Britain at the end of the First World War on a model derived from boxcars to 20t skins friezes wood Co. North and attributed to it in compensation for losses suffered during the conflict. The body is full metal, a characteristic they share a little later with the North covered unified "rebuilt" with domed roof." 

 

Third is a WD Guard Van (Kit K241) : "These cars were built in Britain at the end of the First World War for the operations of the British Army in France. After the war they were sold to the Compagnie du Nord. They share many common elements with the boxcars built simultaneously for the same reasons. Originally vans were equipped with a corrugated tin roof and a large periscope, some were also equipped with a hand brake screw gangway to make them linkable to increase the weight of the trains brake while n 'using the services of a single agent. Quickly, roofs were redone in a conventional manner (wooden slats covered with tarred canvas), lost their gangways for those who had received him and provided a smaller periscope."

 

Finally there is another short wheel based van mentioned with commentary mentioning WD relating to the Brake Van, but the translation is not quite clear, overall very interesting, a pity they are not in OO. Given the cost for these HO kits and the likelihood that they will be noticeably smaller with OO stock something I am unfortunately not willing to risk buying.

 

With regard to the SNCF Society, no I haven't, though given my quite narrow and specific interest I am not sure joining would be worthwhile.

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

post-19663-0-58544100-1400224830.jpg

post-19663-0-90979500-1400225571.jpg

post-19663-0-27013600-1400226716.jpg

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.... His prices can be a bit eyewatering ...

I think that goes for virtually any small-scale producer in mainland Europe.

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Chris, I think you might find that drawings for a lot of those vehicles which made it into Nord or SNCF service might be available, but the SNCF Society would be your best means of locating them. Tim Hills is a member on here and I know is also a member of the society. British built vehicles might have drawings available at the NRM - I know the ROD ones which later went to Belgium did.

 

There are one or two French wagon forums but they didn't seem very interested in older stock when I was a member.

 

Scratchbuilding is the way you'll have to go in 4mm, but you might find it's easier than you think. I've built a number of ferry vehicles including the ROD 20T van with hutch which were built in large numbers in the UK and it's easier than you think. I had never scratchbuilt anything before starting on ferry vans. Were I doing them again I might try to do masters for resin casting. At the moment you'd get a better result than 3d printing.

 

sbafb_zpsb9b708c0.jpg

 

(Thanks to Andy York for the photo above)

 

Given that you have some locos and a brake van available, the rest should be fairly straightforward. Honest.

Edited by jwealleans
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Quite a few of the AMF87 wagons would be usable for a R.O.D. layout - wagons like  the K227, I would have thought but at 125 euros a pop even an British H0 modeller like me would hesitate.  Of course my problem is that while French wagons (and coaches) might be available - even if at exorbitant cost - there aren't any R.0.D. locos in H0.

 

By contrast the locos are available in 00 but where is the stock?  We know (from the Railway Magazine in 1933) that all sorts of wagons were loaned from British railway companies and thousands more were built specially for the WD.  We even have their R.O.D. numbers but I've never seen any comprehensive listing of which specific British types they were.  If we knew that we could determine if any models or kits currently available could be used with appropriate decals.

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John,

 

Thanks for the encouragement. 

 

I also note Hornby are doing the J15 this year. 

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

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1ngram,

 

I believe there is a HO ROD locomotive planned for/being produced for the Australian market. A number of them were used until 1973 on colliery lines.

 

 

Chris

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Having a quick look around a New South Wales 53 Class locomotive is planned by http://eurekamodels.com.au/ in HO. Ten of these were taken over by the ROD and post war purchased by the SNCB as the SNCB 76 class. If someone spoke to eureka models and mentioned the ROD/Belgian history and the possibilities for marketing in Belgium they may bump it up there program (which can be slow). 

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

Edited by Chris hndrsn

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This may be the Branchlines 2-8-0 which has been available in both 00 and H0 for some years.  The kits were made in H0 specially for the Australian market.  There is a made up one available at present on Ebay for £793.23p and a kit in NSW from the same seller for £275.54p though the kit can actually be bought for an awful lot less direct from Branchlines here in UK.  As a British 1/87 Society member modelling UK railways of this period I've always fancied one but not at that price built?

 

But if another rtr R.0.D. loco is going to appear soon, I would be delighted.  What have you heard, Chris?

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The D53 class is/was produced by DJH for Footplate models (AUS) which is now part of AR Kits. It is available from AR Kits for AUD $450 (about GBP 250.60) from http://www.arkits.com/catalogue/16. There is however a RTR injection moulded one "coming soon" from Eureka Models according to their website.

 

Chris

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Interesting indeed, but not for me, I'm afraid.  I suspect British H0 modellers will steer clear because, though it ran in France and Belgium, it never ran in the UK and thus cannot be used on our UK layouts.  I will do the R.O.D. in 4mm, wait for the Hornby 0-6-0 due this summer(?) and build some stock up in anticipation.  One thing I would really like is a railway gun.  There is a very (very) expensive kit in (I think) 1/72 available but the H0 Model Power one can, I suspect, be used comfortably with 4mm figures.

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Seeing the picture from Jacques Willigens above reminds me that the Rails d'Autrefois group may be able to help source drawings.  (Jacques is the president of the group)

 

http://railsdautrefois.fr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18&Itemid=22

 

Nothing they have so far published has specifically covered ROD items, but their members may well be able to help

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.........  One thing I would really like is a railway gun.  There is a very (very) expensive kit in (I think) 1/72 available but the H0 Model Power one can, I suspect, be used comfortably with 4mm figures.

 

 

You better jump in reasonably quick on the Model Power product, they have just gone belly-up.

 

As for the D53 and ROD in HO, I emailed Eureka Models and got a very prompt reply: :I will be producing the D53 when we do a re-run of the D 50.   I have looked at the ROD and may produce one at a later date. The problem with British modellers is that they model in OO and any model produced in HO is out of place."

 

Looking at their website, the D50 is due for re-run shortly, so I would imagine the D53 will be available soon.

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

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