Passenger and parcels stock for Camden

[92220]

Another view of the Kitchen Car:

 

 

A D1715 Pd 1 50' BG - almost entirely from Comet. These lacked a full underframe, having only a battery box bracket on one side. This runs on Bachmann LMS bogies, which need the full length step boards adding. Roof, paint, glazing, transfers, weathering......all still to do. But it needed a test run before all that. The bogies needed some slight adjustment as they just fouled the dynamo and vacuum brake reservoir which were added according to the plan.

 

 

This had its test run in a rake of other 50' BGs, modified Bachmann and Hornby, in various stages of completion:

 

 

 

 

 

The underframe of the 68' Restaurant Car has warped though..... Wondering whether I should cut my losses here and get a Comet one.

 

Iain

[92220]

M25268M ex LMS Suburban BTL now lined out and numbered. Halfords Rover Damask Red, Klear, Pressfix, Microset, Klear again.

 

 

Laser glaze has made a positive difference I think.

 

Next steps: paint and fit interior, frost the lav window, fix replacement handrails on the ends, fix roof and weather.

 

Then do another 2 BTLs, 2 CLs and my cut'n'shut T. Which is in itself a disaster already, given that I somehow got the measurements wrong when cutting, and 9 equally spaced third compartments do not equal 57'..... I should have asked Tim.

 

Third? More like a turd.......

 

It's becoming clear - or Klear - that making decent suburban stock is a labour of love. Just laser glazing a Bachmann mk1 takes some considerable time.

 

These will look ok when done I think, and a quantum leap ahead of what the 30 year old Airfix ones did when I started, which is quite satisfying.

 

I'm starting to lean towards getting some etched sides. Even with all the extra drilling, hinge/handle/grab rail soldering and subsequent dental burr grinding, there could be a better result for less time invested.

 

Iain

[92220]

Further progress:

 

I've laser glazed all of the ex LMS subs, and 3 of the Bachmann mk1 subs. I'm getting on with the lining, slowly. I tried the bowpen, and to be honest I need a lot more practice. I can draw a straight line, but I'm getting a wider beginning than the middle and end of the line. Given that I need to avoid the ventilator hoods for the upper lines, and the handles etc for the waist lining, there are plenty of stops and starts. I'll stick with Pressfix for now.

 

A BTL and a CL at the head of a local train on its way into Euston.

 

 

Bachmann mk1 underframe as supplied:

 

 

The vacuum brake cylinder is a dog's breakfast and the dynamo is even on the wrong way round....

 

Solution courtesy of Replica mk1 underframe fittings. Laserglazed.

 

 

 

42' guv ready to be weathered:

 

 

It's been renumbered with Pressfix but I left the slightly thick lining as it was because this will get a heavy dose of dirt as these vehicles seemed to accumulate, I suppose from not being cleaned as a BG would have been. I also managed to get some spare laser glaze to fit the windows which improves the look of the sides a lot.

 

Pd 1 BG:

Bachmann LMS bogies with full length step boards added:

 

 

These have had to have a slightly off-centre pivot as there was insufficient clearance for the bogie due to the position of the dynamo and brake cylinders.

 

2 coats of primer and 2 of Vauxhall Carmine.........and it looks like it's the official supporters vehicle for the Dutch football team..... I think I may have been wrong to think that this rattle can was an approximation of Crimson.

 

 

So what is this for?

 

 

I may be getting ridiculous now:

 

 

A set of Bill Bedford GUV sides (exquisite and delicate, I thought) needed a good home. Comet underframe, Coopercraft BR1 bogies. The ends come from the remains of an old Mopok guv, and I've yet to sort the roof.

 

Iain

[brossard]

Interesting thread Iain.  It's great fun to restore older coaches to bring them up to current standards.  It's also interesting to me to find another kindred soul wrt Tony's coupling system.

 

Great work!

 

John

[92220]

Thank you John! It was your article on the ex LMS suburbans that both inspired me and gave me the necessary methods to improve them. I'm grateful that the laser glaze option is now available though - even if it is a bit of a faff, I got quicker at it (about 15 mins per side in the end) and it was both more effective and much easier than the old flushglaze. I'm still wondering whether to persevere with the cut'n'shut all third, and I may get a few pairs of etched sides to graft onto donor vehicles to bring up the non-lav suburban coach count.

 

Tony Wright's DVD in the Right Track series also gave me a lot of ideas for altering or improving rtr or just plain old coaches, and I agree with you on the coupling system. It is unobtrusive but looks ok with the pipes, adjustable (albeit with a soldering iron....) and effective. Only issues are that coaches are unidirectional and so to run on this layout in both directions representing up trains or arrivals, ecs in both directions to and from Willesden carriage sidings and down trains or departures, I need to add a hook on both ends of a rake. I can re marshal in the fiddle yard to an extent.

 

Iain

[31A]

Nice work on these coaches, Iain!  Good luck with the bow pen.  As you say, the Replica underframe fittings and laserglaze bring a big improvement to the Bachmann BR non gangwayed coaches (I've got several to do), but I wondered whether you'd considered removing or reducing the moulded ridges on the roofs?  In reality these are barely visible - it's quite easy to do but results in a big improvement IMHO.

[brossard]

I was just thinking about doing the glazing in my suburbans.  This is the one area that lets down the whole model, after all the upgrade work.  I did try the Finecast flushglazing and it's an improvement, but the laser glaze is much better I think.

 

John

[92220]

Hi Steve,

 

Yes I have considered the roof ribs, and somewhat pathetically jibbed out of it, to be honest. You are absolutely right, as has everyone else been who has pointed it out! They may get done at some point, but I'm daunted by the task at the moment. I fear a knife slip or whatever, and having weathered about 18 of the mk1 corridors, I'd have to redo the lot. One day, perhaps.....

 

John - I can certainly recommend the laser glaze. It took a good while to do the first coach, but then you get used to how much you need to dress each pane before mounting it. You can also recognise which way round it goes by feel after a while.

 

Iain

[brossard]

Agreed Iain, I have used them on some Bachmann Mk 1 Suburbans, at the same time doing some with the Finecast glazing for comparison (there isn't really).  FWIW, here's a link to my article on upgrading these:

 

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ckzmwe7

 

John

[92220]

Hi John,

 

Great article, thanks - on a par with your Airfix/Dapol one!

 

A bit more progress......

 

Ex LMS Kitchen Car now glazed, roof fitted and painted, and only now needs the filler pipes attaching before weathering. The glass is supposed to be frosted in these, not whitened, so I scraped the back of the glazing with an old razor saw blade in opposing diagonals, before finishing off with a nail file. I wonder what you all think of the effect? I'm reasonably happy with it. There was a brm article a while ago on this vehicle and apparently the glass has Pilkington pattern. There are a lot of those. Photos that I consulted seemed to indicate a hatched frosting pattern, so that is what I went for.

 

 

Old Hornby Stanier BTK again ready for weathering save for the addition of the safety bars on some of the guard's compartment windows, and the slate grey chalk boards.

 

 

 

Hopefully it is a lot better than this:

 

 

Not certain that I'll bother with another one of these to be honest. It was a good way of using an old worthless coach, but as a donor vehicle it has its issues:

Underframe useless (I think it's a poor representation of a Gresley underframe to be honest. Nothing like an LMS one) so I used a Dapol one instead.

Bogies useless

Roof ribs too prominent (when did anyone complain that roof ribs were not prominent enough?)

Ventilators wrong (although correctly positioned)

The body is actually about 1.5 mm too long

 

Ex LMS suburbans almost complete too:

 

 

A couple of random observations:

 

Lining takes me a long while.

 

There are not many 'M' s on the HMRS sheets. 4 coaches of ex LMS provenance and that's it, done. Which means I am accumulating a lot of unused and never-will-be-used HMRS sheets. I've also got some of these numbered but not 'M'd if you see what I mean..... I'm guessing that those modelling the E, W or S regions have similar issues. Could be time to start a swap shop.....

 

I've really enjoyed these various coach modifications/transformations/constructions, but keen to get back to finishing the trackwork and moving on with the layout. I have a tendency to half-complete things, so I vowed that these would be finished before I did anything else at all. They've also taken up a lot of space on the bench so I have to finish them really. They have taken a lot longer than I thought they might. Possibly that is because I'm finding solutions to new problems all the time, and also learning new skills and techniques, so perhaps future efforts will be faster.

 

Iain

 

Edit: spelling

Edited July 13, 2014 by 92220

[brossard]

Thanks Iain, great looking coaches.

 

I too find lining and lettering to be a trial, but I do find myself getting better the more I do.  The HMRS sheets are very good but are limited.  There are transfers missing such as those describing the allowable load for guards compartments.  Modelmaster are a good alternative and do have those prodigal transfers.  I'm glad they are starting to get into pre-grouping.

 

I've been contemplating making some of my own transfers but for yellow on red, you will need to use the white backed transfer sheet.  This means that you will have to match the coach colour on the transfer sheet too.

 

Still, as you say, we bash on and find solutions (I find almost every step to be a problem requiring one) and techniques.

 

John

[MJI]

Hi John,

 

Great article, thanks - on a par with your Airfix/Dapol one!

 

A bit more progress......

 

Ex LMS Kitchen Car now glazed, roof fitted and painted, and only now needs the filler pipes attaching before weathering. The glass is supposed to be frosted in these, not whitened, so I scraped the back of the glazing with an old razor saw blade in opposing diagonals, before finishing off with a nail file. I wonder what you all think of the effect? I'm reasonably happy with it. There was a brm article a while ago on this vehicle and apparently the glass has Pilkington pattern. There are a lot of those. Photos that I consulted seemed to indicate a hatched frosting pattern, so that is what I went for.

 

image.jpg

 

Old Hornby Stanier BTK again ready for weathering save for the addition of the safety bars on some of the guard's compartment windows, and the slate grey chalk boards.

 

image.jpg

 

image.jpg

 

Hopefully it is a lot better than this:

 

image.jpg

 

Not certain that I'll bother with another one of these to be honest. It was a good way of using an old worthless coach, but as a donor vehicle it has its issues:

Underframe useless (I think it's a poor representation of a Gresley underframe to be honest. Nothing like an LMS one) so I used a Dapol one instead.

Bogies useless

Roof ribs too prominent (when did anyone complain that roof ribs were not prominent enough?)

Ventilators wrong (although correctly positioned)

The body is actually about 1.5 mm too long

 

Ex LMS suburbans almost complete too:

 

image.jpg

 

A couple of random observations:

 

Lining takes me a long while.

 

There are not many 'M' s on the HMRS sheets. 4 coaches of ex LMS provenance and that's it, done. Which means I am accumulating a lot of unused and never-will-be-used HMRS sheets. I've also got some of these numbered but not 'M'd if you see what I mean..... I'm guessing that those modelling the E, W or S regions have similar issues. Could be time to start a swap shop.....

 

I've really enjoyed these various coach modifications/transformations/constructions, but keen to get back to finishing the trackwork and moving on with the layout. I have a tendency to half-complete things, so I vowed that these would be finished before I did anything else at all. They've also taken up a lot of space on the bench so I have to finish them really. They have taken a lot longer than I thought they might. Possibly that is because I'm finding solutions to new problems all the time, and also learning new skills and techniques, so perhaps future efforts will be faster.

 

Iain

 

Edit: spelling

 

 

I know the feeling I keep running out of the Bs on the blue grey sheets

[cctransuk]

I know the feeling I keep running out of the Bs on the blue grey sheets

 

Bs? On coaches? Sure you don't mean wagons?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[MJI]

Bs? On coaches? Sure you don't mean wagons?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

DMUs

 

Can't remember if 2 or 4 per sheet, require 2 per set

[31A]

Hi Steve,

 

Yes I have considered the roof ribs, and somewhat pathetically jibbed out of it, to be honest. You are absolutely right, as has everyone else been who has pointed it out! They may get done at some point, but I'm daunted by the task at the moment. I fear a knife slip or whatever, and having weathered about 18 of the mk1 corridors, I'd have to redo the lot. One day, perhaps.....

 

John - I can certainly recommend the laser glaze. It took a good while to do the first coach, but then you get used to how much you need to dress each pane before mounting it. You can also recognise which way round it goes by feel after a while.

 

Iain

Hi Iain, all I can say is, give it a go, you'll probably find it isn't as hard as you think.  I've found the square end of a small steel rule (used as a scraper) is quite a good tool for taking the bulk of the plastic off quite quickly and if you were happy to leave visible traces of the weld seams on the roof, you could probably leave it at that.  If anything, I've found the Bachmann gangwayed vehicles easier as they can be completely dismantled so that you can work on the roof independently of the rest of the vehicle and then re-spray it easily before reassembly.  I can understand if you've got a lot to do it seems a daunting prospect, becoming a boring repetitive task after you've done a few, and I must admit I've only done a proportion of my fleet so far!

 

Talking of repetitive tasks, I've fitted Laserglaze to one of my non gangwayed coaches so far and have several more to do!  I'm interested to hear that you had to dress the panes as I had to do more of this than I expected, but put it down to the fact that I'd painted the coach in question (having used several coats to get anything like a decent finish, due to ineptitude and impatience!) so I thought that in the process I'd made the apertures quite a bit smaller than they originally were.  Did you find you had to do this on coaches which are still in the 'factory finish', or have you repainted yours as well?

[davidw]

I've de-ribbed the roof on all my mk1's. Then applied matt 67 from a rattle can. Quicker than getting the airbrush out, and better finish that a brush

Edited July 14, 2014 by davidw

[Bob O]

Hi John,

 

Great article, thanks - on a par with your Airfix/Dapol one!

 

A bit more progress......

 

Ex LMS Kitchen Car now glazed, roof fitted and painted, and only now needs the filler pipes attaching before weathering. The glass is supposed to be frosted in these, not whitened, so I scraped the back of the glazing with an old razor saw blade in opposing diagonals, before finishing off with a nail file. I wonder what you all think of the effect? I'm reasonably happy with it. There was a brm article a while ago on this vehicle and apparently the glass has Pilkington pattern. There are a lot of those. Photos that I consulted seemed to indicate a hatched frosting pattern, so that is what I went for.

 

image.jpg

 

Old Hornby Stanier BTK again ready for weathering save for the addition of the safety bars on some of the guard's compartment windows, and the slate grey chalk boards.

 

image.jpg

 

image.jpg

 

Hopefully it is a lot better than this:

 

image.jpg

 

Not certain that I'll bother with another one of these to be honest. It was a good way of using an old worthless coach, but as a donor vehicle it has its issues:

Underframe useless (I think it's a poor representation of a Gresley underframe to be honest. Nothing like an LMS one) so I used a Dapol one instead.

Bogies useless

Roof ribs too prominent (when did anyone complain that roof ribs were not prominent enough?)

Ventilators wrong (although correctly positioned)

The body is actually about 1.5 mm too long

 

Ex LMS suburbans almost complete too:

 

image.jpg

 

A couple of random observations:

 

Lining takes me a long while.

 

There are not many 'M' s on the HMRS sheets. 4 coaches of ex LMS provenance and that's it, done. Which means I am accumulating a lot of unused and never-will-be-used HMRS sheets. I've also got some of these numbered but not 'M'd if you see what I mean..... I'm guessing that those modelling the E, W or S regions have similar issues. Could be time to start a swap shop.....

 

I've really enjoyed these various coach modifications/transformations/constructions, but keen to get back to finishing the trackwork and moving on with the layout. I have a tendency to half-complete things, so I vowed that these would be finished before I did anything else at all. They've also taken up a lot of space on the bench so I have to finish them really. They have taken a lot longer than I thought they might. Possibly that is because I'm finding solutions to new problems all the time, and also learning new skills and techniques, so perhaps future efforts will be faster.

 

Iain

 

Edit: spelling

Good stuff, Keep it coming . Fox transfers though and lining otherwise great.

[92220]

Well, I've not done very much of late, as explained in my main Camden Shed layout thread.

 

I did spend an hour or two back in the summer looking at some carriage formations from two sources - the Passenger Train Marshalling book for the LMR (Western lines) for summer 1960 and the Clive S Carter book

 

All in all, I think I can get a few representative expresses sorted out. The PTM is very useful for someone who knows more than me because I think you could even work out individual diagram nos. from the formation and seating capacity. It does show which are mk1 vehicles, which are class A stock, and which are fitted with gangway adaptors in order to be able to couple to the mk1 vehicle next to them in the train.

 

This is what I think I've worked out so far......

 

All mk1 unless stated

 

7.45am Euston to Liverpool Lime Street

 

2 SK ex LMS Mondays only

BSK

CK

FK ex LMS

BSK

SK ex LMS

BSK ex LMS

2 CK

SO

RK ex LMS

FO ex LMS

FO ex LMS

BSK

BG

 

8.00 am Euston to Holyhead

 

BG ex LMS

SK ex LMS

SK ex LMS

BSK

SK

FO ex LMS

RKB

SO

SO ex LMS

5 SK

BSK ex LMS

 

8.30 Euston to Manchester Victoria

 

BSK ex LMS

CK

CK

SO

RK ex LMS

FO ex LMS

FO ex LMS

BSK

CK

FK

BSK

SK ex LMS

SK ex LMS

BG

 

 

10 am Euston to Glasgow (SX)

SK ex LMS

SK ex LMS

CK ex LMS

BSK ex LMS

BSK ex LMS

CK

SK

SO

RK ex LMS

FO

FK

BSK

BG

 

(Is that the Royal Scot? Sorry if that is the most moronic question....)

 

10 am Euston to Glasgow (SO)

SK

BSK

CK

SK

BSK

3SK

RK

FO

FK

BFK

BG

 

1.05 pm Euston to Glasgow - was this the Caledonian?

 

BSK

3 SO

RK ex LMS

FO

BFK

 

I can do this one without compression easily enough!

 

4.27pm Euston to Wolverhampton

 

2 SO ex LMS Mon/Sat only

SO ex LMS

SK ex LMS

SK

BSK

SO

SO

RF ex LMS

FK

FK

BSK

 

6.30pm Euston to Inverness

 

RS ex LMS

FO ex LMS

BSK

SK

CK

2SLF ex LMS

2SLSTP

SLF ex LMS

CK

BSK ex LMS

BG ex LMS

BG ex LMS

 

Trying to get a bit more info on some local and stopping services, it seems from pictures as if there is a mix of ex LMS non-gangwayed stock, plus the odd corridor vehicle, some of which were old period II stock living out their final years, plus some BR mk1 non-corridor stock. Hoping that some knowledgeable souls will know more.

 

I've also been doing a bit of building in the odd half an hour or so here and there. And some buying.

 

Buying first:

 

Picked up these two complete Comet coaches on eBay:

 

Firstly a nicely built kitchen car. A couple of things to add such as filler pipes, but overall very nice.

 

 

And this, a 60ft CK, also nicely built with an interior too:

 

 

But the roof looks like this:

 

 

 

Anyone have any idea why this might be like this? Or shall I just strip it down, then add ventilators and pipes?

 

Iain

[Taz]

Some nice purchases there.

 

I don't think that ia a CK though. I believe it is a 65' restaurant open first to diag 1902. Not sure on the roof details but it does match the model on the Comet website.

[92220]

Ahhh, thank you Taz. That makes a lot of sense now. Hoping that this D1902 65' RFO was still in front line use in 1960.....

 

Iain

[philbax]

The long cover on the coach roof is to accommodate air conditioning. This would be one of the coaches built for the blue and silver (or red and gold) coach set for the pre war 1937 Coronation Scot train to run behind the streamlined duchesses. Originally they would have had fairings over the underframes. I think they were stored during  war and repainted in standard livery around 1946. They then seam to have gone to North Wales for use on the Manchester - Southport services.

A good detailed description is in the illustrated history of LMS coaching stock by Jenkinson & Essery volume 111, published by OPC.

 

I think for your use and period they need to be converted back to standard roof with vents for the Euston services

 

Philbax

[Taz]

To expand on Phil's info.

 

25 were built (nos 7490-7514) under Lot 734 during 1934. 10 more (nos 7566-7575) under Lot 1187 were added in 1939.

 

Nos 7507-7509 were modified for use in the Coronation Scot sets. It is these that had the roof layout as per your model (but was it for pressure ventilation rather than air conditioning?).

 

The last one was withdrawn in 1965.

 

(All info from Jenkinson and Essery).

 

You can download the instructions from the Comet website which shows the more conventional roof layout.

[92220]

Thanks Phil and Brian. My copy of Jenkinson and Essery is in the shed and I would certainly need to consult it to find any sort of an answer!

 

I will aim to convert to a standard roof layout and use it from there.

 

In the PTM book that I consulted, there are a few instances I've quoted above where an ex LMS RF or FO was marshalled next to the RK. I haven't found an obvious example of an RFO of that type yet.

 

Thanks again, much appreciated.

 

Iain

[92220]

Some building:

 

A period III Stanier TK D1899 built from Comet sides on a Hornby donor. The donor shell has no glazing, pipes, grab rails or connections, while the chassis is missing part of both vacuum cylinder levers, and the bogies. However, since it came in a job lot which included decent China Black 5 and Britannia bodies, and a Maunsell chassis among other tat, for only 4 quid, I think it was worth modifying.

 

 

Sides fit ok:

 

 

Aperture cut in the sides, and hinges and handles added to sides:

 

 

Bachmann LMS bogies added plus Comet buffers, vacuum cylinder levers and a bit of 0.45 ns wire, then placed on the layout with a complete Hornby BTK.

 

 

Needs connections, filler pipes, grab rails, step boards, couplings (my usual plagiarism of TW items) interior, painting, glazing, lining numbering and varnishing, and then it might be ready for the weathering shop.....

 

Also an early Stanier pd III shallow window 60' BCK to D1850 which will be born from the shell of a Dapol CK kit.

 

 

I'm not certain which ventilators to use - these are off the pd II dining car conversion and are similar to the type in Jenkinson and Essery for when it was built, but I'm struggling to find a photo of one of these D1850 coaches which clearly shows whether they had been replaced by later type ventilators. I'm suspecting they might have been.

 

 

The roof has been deribbed, holes filled, marked and redrilled according to the Comet plans.

 

And loosely clipped together on the layout as it stands so far:

 

 

Iain

[sandwich station]

Anyone have any idea why this might be like this?

Here's what it would have looked like.

 

 

 

Some nice work there Iain. Particularly like the Hornby dinning/kitchen car conversion.