Shunting the Motorail stock at St.Austell

[stovepipe]

23 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

Switching attention to the motive power for the KO - St Austell Motorail for a moment, it doesn't seem to be widely known that Hymeks were regular performers during the summers of 1970 and 1971, with the loco stabled at St Blazey all day.

 

1970: D7045 (20/6), D7020 (27/6), D7051 (4/7), D7064 (11/7)

1971: D7017 (12/6), D7070 (3/7), D7041 (10/7), D7072 (17/7), D7049 (24/7), D7013 (31/7), D7088 (7/8) [7088's return working handled by D1057, reason unknown]

 

These may not be full lists, I was located further west and relied on school friends from St Austell to relay the information. A photo exists of D7064 parked inside St Blazey shed - the only known photo of any of these workings. When I heard that D7051 was in the rare all-over blue with small yellow panels I made the trip from Truro to see it that afternoon (D1682 to St A, D822 to Par, D847 return - those were the days!) How did I get to know about it on the day? Because we had school on Saturday mornings (don't ask!!)

 

Neil P

 

It's good to hear reports of Hymeks working so far West, though I am a little sceptical that they were allocated as the train engine for the KO - St Austell motorail. With a G2 timing load for this service, a single Hymek was allowed 300 tons over the Devon banks. They may have worked as a pilot, but a loco change was booked at Plymouth, which would often mean removal of the pilot too. 

 

Arrival at St A was around 2pm and the return service left at 3:30pm. I did find a report in RM from 12/06/71 of D6337 piloting D1005 on the return working, but no mention of D7017 on that day. 

 

However there is a report from 04/09/71 of D7089 working a St Austell - Sutton Coldfield motorail, the services via Bristol would seem a more likely source of Hymeks to me. Does the photo of D7064 at St Blazey show a train identification code?

[keefer]

On 07/08/2019 at 13:23, Fat Controller said:

Never seen any mention of these before, though I heard of Bulleid coaches acting as donors. There were a number of old units that provided underframes for Manta and Marlin LWR wagons.

 

Sorry, just spotted your post Brian.

That must've been what I was thinking of - I couldn't check as it was in books I lost during a house move.

[Halvarras]

On 09/08/2019 at 01:08, stovepipe said:

It's good to hear reports of Hymeks working so far West, though I am a little sceptical that they were allocated as the train engine for the KO - St Austell motorail. With a G2 timing load for this service, a single Hymek was allowed 300 tons over the Devon banks. They may have worked as a pilot, but a loco change was booked at Plymouth, which would often mean removal of the pilot too. 

 

Arrival at St A was around 2pm and the return service left at 3:30pm. I did find a report in RM from 12/06/71 of D6337 piloting D1005 on the return working, but no mention of D7017 on that day. 

 

However there is a report from 04/09/71 of D7089 working a St Austell - Sutton Coldfield motorail, the services via Bristol would seem a more likely source of Hymeks to me. Does the photo of D7064 at St Blazey show a train identification code?

 

Oddly enough the likely ability (or otherwise) of Hymeks to lift such trains over the Devon hills only occurred to me after I sent my previous post, for the first time since 1971! Bit slow on the uptake there methinks....... I've looked up the image of D7064 inside St Blazey shed on 11/7/70 and also my notebook for D7051 (which was parked beside the erstwhile coaling stage) the previous week and in both cases the headcode was 1V42. If this identifies these Hymek workings as originating from Sutton Coldfield then great, I'll have learned something new after 48 years. What makes me thinks this could well be the case is the apparently rapid 90-minute turnaround of the KO train at St Austell - if the Hymeks were working this, I wouldn't have found out about D7051 in time to go and see it, besides which there was no time for it to retire to St Blazey. From what I can recall the Hymek-hauled working arrived around dawn and left in the evening, which is why the loco was stabled at BZ.......sorry, I mean 84B all day.

You seem to have more info to hand than I have so I hope this all helps, and your assistance in nailing it would be much appreciated. I find it hard to believe that Hymeks were routinely swapped at Plymouth to work these trains into Cornwall so their Devon hill-climbing abilities with a motorail in tow are still open to question........were the coaches and flats split?

My apologies to all if this is now somewhat OT........ 

[stovepipe]

Back to my books after a nice trip away...

 

A litttle thread drift is acceptable I think to sort out a 48-year old mystery...

 

The weekend Sutton Coldfield Motorail workings in 1970 were :

 

23.25 SO Sutton Coldfield - St Austell, arriving approx 07.05

11.40 SUN St Austell - Sutton Coldfield

 

The down Sutton Coldfield service would have been a 1Vxx headcode, but I don't have anything which confirms if it was 1V42. Can anyone else ?

 

It did load to 16 vehicles (10 carflats) so I wonder too, if on the peak high season weeks, the service was split to cater for the numbers wishing to travel.

 

If the service was split, then I suppose they could have worked the other services, which over the weekend were:

 

01.10 SO Kensington Olympia - St Austell, returning as

22.52 SO St Austell - Kensington Olympia

 

08.10 SAT Kensington Olympia - St Austell, arr 14:35

15.35 SAT St Austell - Kensington Olympia

 

08.25 SUN Kensington Olympia - St Austell, arr 14.55

16.45 SUN St Austell - Kensington Olympia

 

 

[stovepipe]

Well it seems I do have a 1970 WTT which shows 20 minutes of the working from Sutton Coldfield, the train ID is 1V43, applying to both the FO service to Newton Abbot, and SO to St Austell. The return working was 1M49.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 17/08/2019 at 23:57, stovepipe said:

Back to my books after a nice trip away...

 

A litttle thread drift is acceptable I think to sort out a 48-year old mystery...

 

The weekend Sutton Coldfield Motorail workings in 1970 were :

 

23.25 SO Sutton Coldfield - St Austell, arriving approx 07.05

11.40 SUN St Austell - Sutton Coldfield

 

The down Sutton Coldfield service would have been a 1Vxx headcode, but I don't have anything which confirms if it was 1V42. Can anyone else ?

 

It did load to 16 vehicles (10 carflats) so I wonder too, if on the peak high season weeks, the service was split to cater for the numbers wishing to travel.

 

If the service was split, then I suppose they could have worked the other services, which over the weekend were:

 

01.10 SO Kensington Olympia - St Austell, returning as

22.52 SO St Austell - Kensington Olympia

 

08.10 SAT Kensington Olympia - St Austell, arr 14:35

15.35 SAT St Austell - Kensington Olympia

 

08.25 SUN Kensington Olympia - St Austell, arr 14.55

16.45 SUN St Austell - Kensington Olympia

 

 

 

So what rolling stock was being used for these services?

 

The Sutton Coldfield service is nighttime one way, daytime back. Not ideal.

 

The daytime St Austell services reflect the original question that started this thread. Impressive working to get those carflats shunted, unloaded, reloaded and then remarshalled in that time.

 

The one that is new to me is an overnight St Austell service. Sleepers? And where did they go for storage during the day?

[Flood]

From the 1970 Passenger Marshalling Book:

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

One of my aims in looking at this as a layout project was to portray it in two eras: pre-BR corporate and post BR corporate.

 

I have fished though a lot of photos on the internet and it is clear that the track layout at the up end of the station was simplified during this period. The short up siding at the down end of the up platform was also removed.

 

Can anyone here confirm the date of these changes? My educated guess is that they would be concurrent with the abolition of Trenance Jct Box which, according to an earlier post on this thread, would be 1968. It would have freed up some levers to repurpose.

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 18/08/2019 at 01:26, stovepipe said:

Well it seems I do have a 1970 WTT which shows 20 minutes of the working from Sutton Coldfield, the train ID is 1V43, applying to both the FO service to Newton Abbot, and SO to St Austell. The return working was 1M49.

 

To bookend the 1V42/43 headcodes, in the 1969 WTT, the nearest I have;

1V41. 2045 Bradford Exchange - Paignton.

1V44. 2144 Leeds City - Bristol TM.

 

Mike.

[Halvarras]

On 17/08/2019 at 23:57, stovepipe said:

Back to my books after a nice trip away...

 

A litttle thread drift is acceptable I think to sort out a 48-year old mystery...

 

The weekend Sutton Coldfield Motorail workings in 1970 were :

 

23.25 SO Sutton Coldfield - St Austell, arriving approx 07.05

11.40 SUN St Austell - Sutton Coldfield

 

The down Sutton Coldfield service would have been a 1Vxx headcode, but I don't have anything which confirms if it was 1V42. Can anyone else ?

 

It did load to 16 vehicles (10 carflats) so I wonder too, if on the peak high season weeks, the service was split to cater for the numbers wishing to travel.

 

If the service was split, then I suppose they could have worked the other services, which over the weekend were:

 

01.10 SO Kensington Olympia - St Austell, returning as

22.52 SO St Austell - Kensington Olympia

 

08.10 SAT Kensington Olympia - St Austell, arr 14:35

15.35 SAT St Austell - Kensington Olympia

 

08.25 SUN Kensington Olympia - St Austell, arr 14.55

16.45 SUN St Austell - Kensington Olympia

 

 

 

Although I said in my last post that I find it hard to believe that Laira would have regularly turned out Hymeks to work at least a portion of a Motorail service into Cornwall, on reflection it is possible - if the Sutton Coldfield service deposited a Hymek at Laira which would have sat there all day, they may have decided to use it for local crew 'refresher' training on the type, maybe on a 'split' train portion of suitable load. Although Hymeks were more common in Cornwall in 1964/5 than many realise - after all Laira had a small allocation - they seemed to be non-existent in 1966, the year I first got interested in railways. During D601/2/4's absence in South Wales Aug-Nov 1967 Laira received D7029/88 as stand-ins - perfect for keeping the local crews familiar with Hymeks. Not just on local duties either, both were regularly diagrammed for the down 'Cornish Riviera' through to Penzance during those months. Fascinating period actually as these two could be seen alongside D600/3, the first Class 47 visitors and blue/grey Hawksworth coaches!

Right, back to St Austell.....

 

On 22/08/2019 at 12:47, Joseph_Pestell said:

One of my aims in looking at this as a layout project was to portray it in two eras: pre-BR corporate and post BR corporate.

 

I have fished though a lot of photos on the internet and it is clear that the track layout at the up end of the station was simplified during this period. The short up siding at the down end of the up platform was also removed.

 

Can anyone here confirm the date of these changes? My educated guess is that they would be concurrent with the abolition of Trenance Jct Box which, according to an earlier post on this thread, would be 1968. It would have freed up some levers to repurpose.

 

I've had a look at my copies of the Middleton Press books (Plymouth to St Austell/St Austell to Penzance) and these confirm the removal of the short up siding (to enable the up platform to be lengthened) as 1971 - but no luck pinning down when rationalisation of the sidings behind the station occurred. It seems to have been done in stages though as the siding immediately behind the up platform was still is use by Motorails in 1983/4  and other purposes in 1986, although the far siding had been ripped up by then (this from images on the Cornwall Railway Society website). I'm thinking full rationalisation to the current siding 'stubs' occurred during the late 80s/early 90s.....??

According to the caption to image 116 in the MP 'Plymouth to St Austell' book, last Motorail services from St A ran to KO in 1984, Crewe in 1980, Worcester in 1978 and Dover in 1975 (Dover? I had no idea!) These and the constant procession of clay trains (including the Bowaters tanks) lead me to believe that I missed out on a lot of action living one station too far west!! 

[Joseph_Pestell]

19 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

 

Although I said in my last post that I find it hard to believe that Laira would have regularly turned out Hymeks to work at least a portion of a Motorail service into Cornwall, on reflection it is possible - if the Sutton Coldfield service deposited a Hymek at Laira which would have sat there all day, they may have decided to use it for local crew 'refresher' training on the type, maybe on a 'split' train portion of suitable load. Although Hymeks were more common in Cornwall in 1964/5 than many realise - after all Laira had a small allocation - they seemed to be non-existent in 1966, the year I first got interested in railways. During D601/2/4's absence in South Wales Aug-Nov 1967 Laira received D7029/88 as stand-ins - perfect for keeping the local crews familiar with Hymeks. Not just on local duties either, both were regularly diagrammed for the down 'Cornish Riviera' through to Penzance during those months. Fascinating period actually as these two could be seen alongside D600/3, the first Class 47 visitors and blue/grey Hawksworth coaches!

Right, back to St Austell.....

 

 

I've had a look at my copies of the Middleton Press books (Plymouth to St Austell/St Austell to Penzance) and these confirm the removal of the short up siding (to enable the up platform to be lengthened) as 1971 - but no luck pinning down when rationalisation of the sidings behind the station occurred. It seems to have been done in stages though as the siding immediately behind the up platform was still is use by Motorails in 1983/4  and other purposes in 1986, although the far siding had been ripped up by then (this from images on the Cornwall Railway Society website). I'm thinking full rationalisation to the current siding 'stubs' occurred during the late 80s/early 90s.....??

According to the caption to image 116 in the MP 'Plymouth to St Austell' book, last Motorail services from St A ran to KO in 1984, Crewe in 1980, Worcester in 1978 and Dover in 1975 (Dover? I had no idea!) These and the constant procession of clay trains (including the Bowaters tanks) lead me to believe that I missed out on a lot of action living one station too far west!! 

 

Thank you, Neil. Some really helpful info there.

 

So, I can definitely leave the short up siding. 

 

I will have another sift through the photos that I found for the trailing lead via a double slip into the Motorail sidings. It would look more interesting even if rather more costly.

 

The prospect of some china clay trains using that Up Goods Loop is one of the reasons for my interest in this location.

 

I knew about the Dover - St Austell. It does seem a bit strange. I think that one of the problems with Motorail is that it tended to take people too far, overshooting the destination for many. Dover to Exeter or Okehampton (all Southern) may have made a lot more sense. Worcester and Crewe are new to me.

 

I don't think that I knew about b/g Hawksworth coaches.

[Halvarras]

Definitely OT so briefly, three Hawksworth SKs W1719/2135/2283W were repainted blue/grey and used between Plymouth and Penzance in 1967, apparently always marshalled behind the locomotive. Purpose is reported to have been their generous internal layout permitting a catering trolley service.

[Fat Controller]

9 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

Definitely OT so briefly, three Hawksworth SKs W1719/2135/2283W were repainted blue/grey and used between Plymouth and Penzance in 1967, apparently always marshalled behind the locomotive. Purpose is reported to have been their generous internal layout permitting a catering trolley service.

The two photos (one taken early 1960s, the other towards the end of the decade) I've seen of these coaches show them on the Riviera. They were used as the compartment doors were large enough to let a trolley enter and be secured, when not in use.

[tomparryharry]

Off topic (again) but the Motorail terminal at Clapham is still there, but unused. I last saw it about 18 months ago.