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On 15/11/2020 at 20:08, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Graham

 

It looks like a Craftsman kit. As Cheesy has already mentioned the DMU the kit was designed to fit is the Lima class 117 suburban unit cut down to length. Do the instructions  say where to cut the under gubbins ....

 

On 15/11/2020 at 23:43, Clive Mortimore said:

The easiest way to make a Met-Cam buffet set would be to acquire a Lima or Hornby 3 car set and an extra center car. This would be a DMC/TRB/TS/DMBS formation ...

 

Thanks Clive - and others - for replies on this.

 

Route 1 would thus appear to acquire a 2nd hand Lima 117 and there are a couple for not-much-money (compared to a new Bachmann unit). HOWEVER - would I be right to say that they come with the old 'Pizza cutter' wheels? In which case, no good for Code 75 track so would need re-wheeling. Plus reconfiguring the undergubbins (it appears), so then looks a less attractive option.

 

Route 2 would appear to acquire a new(-ish) Bachmann 108 - spend more, but then less to do. However - and perhaps unsurprisingly - not too easy to come by at the moment.

 

Route 3 might be to completely scratchbuild the chassis which would be quite a challenge - but then I like a challenge?

 

Hmm!

 

Meanwhile, the Met-Camm 4-car. Would I be right in saying then, from what you're saying Clive, that the buffet car was little more that a modified TS vehicle? So nothing 'special' about it in terms of a completely different bodyshell or anything like that? So just need to look out for 2nd hand Met-Camm sets it appears (but not Lima ones for the afore-mentioned reason?)

 

Yes, the railcar website is good; I'd come across it before. But good to read in detail about the early deployment of the Lightweights and this actually solves a small riddle. I've just started researching the timetable for Carlisle, based on a 1955 Bradshaws timetable. When I looked at the Workington (via Maryport) route, I was somewhat surprised to see such an intensive service, at 'clockface' hourly intervals (generally) as that's much more like nowadays, not the 1950s. But it falls into place when you realise that was the 'new' DMU timetable that the Lightweights started operating from that year.

 

So I might need quite a few of them ... in time!

Edited by LNER4479
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8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Meanwhile, the Met-Camm 4-car. Would I be right in saying then, from what you're saying Clive, that the buffet car was little more that a modified TS vehicle? So nothing 'special' about it in terms of a completely different bodyshell or anything like that? So just need to look out for 2nd hand Met-Camm sets it appears (but not Lima ones for the afore-mentioned reason?)


Don't discount Lima 101 centre cars yet.
 

I don't believe Bachmann ever did a TS for their Class 101 DMU. I've only ever seen 2 car sets.

That leaves you looking at the Hornby 101 -- and that is the Lima tooling. While Hornby tooled a new chassis for the motor car, they did not for the  trailers. It's the same chassis under genuine Lima examples too. I'd expect you can get replacement axles (either from Hornby or 3rd party) if the Lima axles are too coarse for current trackwork.

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Thanks.

 

As a PS - been reading the railcar.co.uk entry for the Met-Camms. According to info on there, the initial 1957 formations (which is all I'm interested in) was DMC-TS-TBS-DMC. The buffet 'conversions' weren't introduced until 1960, which is - strictly speaking - outside my time period.

 

Am I in to 'cutting and shutting' to produce DMC-TS-TBS-DMC? If so - and I suspect I am - then need to look out for the older Lima / Hornby units, as Bloodnok suggests.

 

EDIT - Apologies, Clive - have now re-read your earlier post about the Met-Camms and can see that is indeed what you have done!

Edited by LNER4479
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13 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Am I in to 'cutting and shutting' to produce DMC-TS-TBS-DMC? If so - and I suspect I am - then need to look out for the older Lima / Hornby units, as Bloodnok suggests.


Yes.

Clive has posted a picture of a cut-n-shut trailer brake second on the previous page -- it looks like you need to take the brake part from a DMBS and transplant it into a TS.

Edited by Bloodnok
Accuracy.
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 the Hornby class 156 wheels fit the old lima bogies. part x9695. They come with the shorter axle, so just pop in.

 

When I can find them on my work bench (bomb site more like) i will report back on the motor bogies, the new Hornby ones Vs the old lima ones.

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If you are going to use the new Hornby motor bogies, the DMU/153/156 bogies are identical. This is even down to the wheels, 12mm, which is too big for the sprinters, but is perfect for the 1st gen DMU. The motor bogie frame for the 101/bubble car clip directly onto the sprinter motor bogie. I have found the 153 is the cheapest of the lot to buy as spares.

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99762373_302307.jpg.538bce72d1d568e557c752c825b38ec5.jpg

 

Just found this by oxyman, showing a 302 and 307 side by side. Both have same sized drivers cab windows, and also show how the front end changed to allow bigger front windows. Will keep looking, but so far I have found the 302 had same sized windows on drivers and secondman side. 307 not sure about yet, but if it does, we will all need to alter the replica cabs we have been using.

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1 hour ago, cheesysmith said:

If you are going to use the new Hornby motor bogies, the DMU/153/156 bogies are identical. This is even down to the wheels, 12mm, which is too big for the sprinters, but is perfect for the 1st gen DMU. The motor bogie frame for the 101/bubble car clip directly onto the sprinter motor bogie. I have found the 153 is the cheapest of the lot to buy as spares.

Most interesting.  I need want to get rid of the traction tyres on my 101: is there a non traction tyred version for the 153?

Paul.

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I will try and check, but the wheels with gears are interchangeable between all the Hornby motor bogies. If the 153 wheels can be obtained without tyres, they would be a direct swap. 

 

Just checked my replica DMU conversion, the 153 does not come with tyres (well, the version I used did not).

 

 

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this should be a link to flicker showing 2 302 in multi, and the NSE paint clearly shows the different size windows for the driver and secondman. Both the same height, but one shorter than the other.

 

4231743382_cb1c571854_z.jpg

Edited by cheesysmith
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8 minutes ago, cheesysmith said:

I will try and check, but the wheels with gears are interchangeable between all the Hornby motor bogies. If the 153 wheels can be obtained without tyres, they would be a direct swap. 

 

Just checked my replica DMU conversion, the 153 does not come with tyres (well, the version I used did not).

That has given me ideas about my 117 too.  A bit plasticard bodging should give a ‘roof’ mounting to allow a swap of the pancake motor bogie for the 153 with a bit of further bridging to transfer the frames.

Many thanks.  Paul.

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4 hours ago, cheesysmith said:

this should be a link to flicker showing 2 307 in multi, and the NSE paint clearly shows the different size windows for the driver and secondman. Both the same height, but one shorter than the other.

 

4231743382_cb1c571854_z.jpg

Hi Chessy

 

My 302 is wrong then.....:(

 

Thank you.:good:

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The photos of the 302s is quite fitting as I have been modelling my Tilbury set. This what they replaced.

 

Here are the ex MR 48ft coaches made from Ratio coaches.  The bodies and roof are not fitted to each other or the under frame.

005.jpg.b5554786d0d7eeb57e78afb548d95998.jpg006.jpg.90e06bc0e13cc667d3b0aa6d6512aa40.jpg

The brake third/second. I was short of roofs, as I mentioned before so this one has a Comet compromise roof which is close to the LMS profile. There is still a lot of tidying up to do, and the van end needs windows cutting out. All need the bottom of the end to be profiles and the beading added. The van end had to be rearranged form that modelled by Ratio, the Midland's fault for changing things.

 

007.jpg.03cdfcb69048cc9920b8930aa79365a7.jpg

The all third/second.

 

009.jpg.af73f542f0bf1a7a23ae3b2307790810.jpg

The all first, all but one were downgraded to third/second.

 

The roof has been made from off cuts from other models, it needs a lot of work to get it looking right.

 

020.jpg.680ad71ffeca5edcc286d757c1d46b11.jpg

The Composite Lavatory, this coach was the one needing the most work, it is made from two Ratio coaches a First and a Third.

 

Underframe mods and 54ft coaches to come.

 

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The Ratio underframe was used with Airfix/Dapol bogies. The later MR bogies and the LMS bogies looked very similar if not the same.

 

The first question was "Do I use the Ratio bolster or make my own?" The Ratio was chosen, it needed a 3.5mm hole drilled in to it for the pin thingy to fit. On the trial mounts the underframe was too high, by about 1mm. So I filed off the boss from the bogie. The two little stabilisers on the bogie then made contact with the bolster causing it not to rotate, these were also reduced in height with a file. Now the coach floor wouldn't sit on the bolsters because the pin thingies were too high, so a 5mm hole was made in the floor.

001.jpg.76b9d327eaaefcb0d6c3cd5015e1449d.jpg

 

002.jpg.2419c00b05f01e39232dc4cef2de0aa2.jpg

 

The kit's solbar mouldings had the trussing and steps removed. The coaches I am building had a different trussing arrangement and the lower steps where removed from early coaches about the time of the grouping, I am not sure if these were fitted with them when new.

003.jpg.3d859470dfbdc6aab4421669140370a4.jpg

 

Where it says gas cylinder I am not fitting these as these coaches were built with electric lighting and will have battery boxes.

 

The coach bodies in real life were wider (9ft) than those the Ratio model is based on (8ft 6ins) so I added some 1mm square microstrip to each side of the floor.

004.jpg.b521f9190fcdf378bb53069f14bcde03.jpg

 

Next the 54ft coaches.

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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The longer coaches.

010.jpg.17f4b75d933c23f436cccc771115bac9.jpg

LMS period III 54ft Composite Lavatory. This was made from a Airfix/Dapol 57ft Compo Lav. The compartment size for the 3rd class is OK but the first needed to be 2mm shorter, also only one lavatory not two as on the Airfix model. The underframe is a cut down Airfix 60ft CK one, I need to add new trussing.

 

011.jpg.30ec0f0f9e7b5757b03f9f4eced98862.jpg

MR 54ft Third/Second, the only differences between an MR coach and an LMS period I coach are the door grabs and the ends were paneled on the MR coach (still need to be done) . Both the MR and LMS built coaches to this design for general service, so if you want a MR or period I all third, have a 54ft one. The body is a Ratio one with an added compartment from the 48ft CL conversion left overs. Underframe is the same as the 54ft CL.

 

012.jpg.66ebf87b2ab20f608683b7debb8767cf.jpg

The Brake Third/Second, it is a period 2 LMS build. All the Tilbury brakes had seven compartments which presented a bit of a challenge, firstly they are shorter than modelled by Airfix/Dapol so 1mm had to be removed from each one, secondly in making the Push-Pull set I ran out of compartments so using up spare doors and window panels I made my own. 14 parts to each side.

 

014.jpg.c527e846bbe2ae1608d6e99981fdaa42.jpg

Some Eastenders on a day out to Southend -on -Sea.

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I took a break while doing the basic work on the Tilbury coaches and done a real life conversion of a Mainlie/Bachmann LMS period I BSK into a BG. I left out the conversion to an ambulance coach in WW2 which the real ones went through. They had most the widows plated up and, in the case of the brake second another set of double doors added. Some had a lot of the original paneling removed, others seemed to retain more of theirs.  As no two were alike and very few were photographed I think I can get away with my conversion as being a representative not 100% accurate to a particular coach.

 

016.jpg.4a80873977ac5df353fcc9a56b2bc6f7.jpg

Note the double doors both with windows, another bit of left over Ratio 3rd.

 

017.jpg.84e15c7bfff22befbfab633703e1154a.jpg

The added door on this side doesn't have a window, these were more common. As the rest of the coach has moulded on hand rails etc I used microstrip not wire to try and keep things looking the same.

 

Back to the Tilbury train I have another potential coach for it a very very old Graham Farish model. It is a kit with a tin plate roof and cast metal bogies. To improve the look of the roof I have replaced it with a Lima DMU one which doesn't look to bad. I think it could pass as a LMS period II third, it is too long for a 54ft and too short for a 57ft coach

013.jpg.8923e6bdb7e447180bc8aeb1a996c9a2.jpg

 

 

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5 hours ago, cheesysmith said:

this should be a link to flicker showing 2 302 in multi, and the NSE paint clearly shows the different size windows for the driver and secondman. Both the same height, but one shorter than the other.

 

4231743382_cb1c571854_z.jpg

I'm guessing that, like the EPBs etc., there is a fuse cupboard behind the secondman's position?

 

Andi

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31 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

took a break while doing the basic work on the Tilbury coaches and done a real life conversion of a Mainlie/Bachmann LMS period I BSK into a BG. I left out the conversion to an ambulance coach in WW2 which the real ones went through. They had most the widows plated up and, in the case of the brake second another set of double doors added. Some had a lot of the original paneling removed, others seemed to retain more of theirs.  As no two were alike and very few were photographed I think I can get away with my conversion as being a representative not 100% accurate to a particular coach.

The originals seemed to be a cut'n'shut of anything the works had on the scrap line from the old Ambulance stock. I've found 7 pictures so far and all are different.

They lasted until the mid 1960s and certainly got around. The pictures I have found range from Birmingham to Leicester Central, Hertford, Hull and York.

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55 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

I'm guessing that, like the EPBs etc., there is a fuse cupboard behind the secondman's position?

 

Andi

 

Honestly don't know. Might have been a simple as using the jigs they already had for the SR units.

 

I must stop looking through the vids on YouTube or browsing flcker. Keep seeing things that make me want to make more units. 302 in blue and grey with red stripes for compartments, a 305 or 308 with a 302 driving car. Or 302244 with the bury emu driving car.

 

Clive, those cut and shuts are good, especially as I have just been reading through the LMS coaches book vol3.

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