LMS 4,000 gallon tender queries

[31A]

I'm just starting doing a 'Brassmasters' on a Hornby Black 5, and not being too well versed on LMS matters, have a couple of queries about the tender.  Mindful of the spurious 'valence' on the Hornby tender, I've managed to marry the Hornby top with the underframe from a Bachmann Jubilee tender.

 

However I believe 'sieve boxes' were sometimes fitted to the frames between the first and second axle boxes.  I wondered when these were fitted (my model will be c. 1960 condition), whether all the tenders were eventually fitted with them, and whether there were two per tender, i.e. one on each side, or was there just one per tender?  I see Comet list them as parts in their range, although they look like the sort of thing I could make from Plastikard; however so far I haven't found any drawings which show them.

 

Secondly, although the Bachmann tender underframe is better detailed (and I don't think I'll need to use the Brassmasters axle boxes and springs), I don't like the way the brake hangers are moulded solidly with the frames.  I may well just cut these off as I think it'd look better with no brakes at all, but wondered whether anybody produces a suitable set of brake gear for one of these tenders?  I've had a look through the web sites for Comet, Brassmasters and Alan Gibson but so far not found anything suitable.

 

Thanks in advance for any guidance on the above!

[Horsetan]

I'm just starting doing a 'Brassmasters' on a Hornby Black 5, and not being too well versed on LMS matters, have a couple of queries about the tender.  Mindful of the spurious 'valence' on the Hornby tender, I've managed to marry the Hornby top with the underframe from a Bachmann Jubilee tender.

 

However I believe 'sieve boxes' were sometimes fitted to the frames between the first and second axle boxes.  I wondered when these were fitted (my model will be c. 1960 condition), whether all the tenders were eventually fitted with them, and whether there were two per tender, i.e. one on each side, or was there just one per tender?  I see Comet list them as parts in their range, although they look like the sort of thing I could make from Plastikard; however so far I haven't found any drawings which show them.

 

Secondly, although the Bachmann tender underframe is better detailed (and I don't think I'll need to use the Brassmasters axle boxes and springs), I don't like the way the brake hangers are moulded solidly with the frames.  I may well just cut these off as I think it'd look better with no brakes at all, but wondered whether anybody produces a suitable set of brake gear for one of these tenders?  I've had a look through the web sites for Comet, Brassmasters and Alan Gibson but so far not found anything suitable.

 

Thanks in advance for any guidance on the above!

 

Sieve boxes were introduced from about 1946 onwards, and were seen on the Ivatt-generation part-welded tenders from new. One each side, if I remember correctly.

 

Brake gear is included with the Comet tender inner chassis kit, ref. TC3

 

Brassmasters provide some notes with their own all-singing, all-dancing tender kit: Click here to download

Edited June 26, 2014 by Horsetan

[RonnieS]

I'm just starting doing a 'Brassmasters' on a Hornby Black 5, and not being too well versed on LMS matters, have a couple of queries about the tender.  Mindful of the spurious 'valence' on the Hornby tender, I've managed to marry the Hornby top with the underframe from a Bachmann Jubilee tender.

 

However I believe 'sieve boxes' were sometimes fitted to the frames between the first and second axle boxes.  I wondered when these were fitted (my model will be c. 1960 condition), whether all the tenders were eventually fitted with them, and whether there were two per tender, i.e. one on each side, or was there just one per tender?  I see Comet list them as parts in their range, although they look like the sort of thing I could make from Plastikard; however so far I haven't found any drawings which show them.

 

Secondly, although the Bachmann tender underframe is better detailed (and I don't think I'll need to use the Brassmasters axle boxes and springs), I don't like the way the brake hangers are moulded solidly with the frames.  I may well just cut these off as I think it'd look better with no brakes at all, but wondered whether anybody produces a suitable set of brake gear for one of these tenders?  I've had a look through the web sites for Comet, Brassmasters and Alan Gibson but so far not found anything suitable.

 

Thanks in advance for any guidance on the above!

As mentioned below just fitted to the part welded tenders. On Comet's website is a Black 5 tender allocation list. Brake shoes from Mainly Trains would suit. If you need sieve boxes I can PM you a pic or 2.

[31A]

Many thanks for the replies so far, both, and oh dear, I should have known this would be a minefield!  The model I have is numbered 44668, which I understand makes it from one of the last built batches, long wheelbase, top feed on first boiler ring and 28 element superheater (from the info in MRJ 25).  In model form, this is the one which was supplied with smooth tank sides but rivets on the back.  I've already removed the rivets from the back, so I believe the tender now correctly represents a fully-welded one, and on the bright side, doesn't need to have sieve boxes.  I didn't intend renumbering it, but from the Comet list (thanks for pointing this out!), it looks as though this loco should have a part welded tender.  However I suppose one could always assume an unrecorded tender swap....  I guess the tender brake gear could come from Mainly Trains MT185; again, I hadn't spotted this product in my searches.

[RonnieS]

Many thanks for the replies so far, both, and oh dear, I should have known this would be a minefield!  The model I have is numbered 44668, which I understand makes it from one of the last built batches, long wheelbase, top feed on first boiler ring and 28 element superheater (from the info in MRJ 25).  In model form, this is the one which was supplied with smooth tank sides but rivets on the back.  I've already removed the rivets from the back, so I believe the tender now correctly represents a fully-welded one, and on the bright side, doesn't need to have sieve boxes.  I didn't intend renumbering it, but from the Comet list (thanks for pointing this out!), it looks as though this loco should have a part welded tender.  However I suppose one could always assume an unrecorded tender swap....  I guess the tender brake gear could come from Mainly Trains MT185; again, I hadn't spotted this product in my searches.

I was going to pm you some info but can't get the file size down low enough! I just found out not all part welded tenders have sieve boxes! And anyway the part welded tenders have flat air vents and short spring links so you may as well build the Comet tender kit. I say this as I converted a Hornby one and I don't think I would advise that route.

You have to scrape off a line of rivets, make a fire iron tunnel, change the vents etc!

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2014 by RonnieS

[31A]

Thanks again, Ronnie.  Point taken about the tender vents and spring links, so I think it's safe to say the tender for my loco will be an all welded type, rightly or wrongly.  I was thinking about the fire iron tunnel and my build one from Plastikard so your picture is useful in showing the shape - or I may just 'bury' it in coal!  Next challenge however is to arrange current pick up from the Bachmann tender underframe, as it seems a pity to lose it.

[Bob O]

I dont think the current pick up from the Hornby tender underframe is worthwhile, It's not really a needed and over time the drag fom the pick ups loses you haulage,

[31A]

Hi Bob, this seems to be a divisive subject among modellers, but hopefully we can agree to disagree!

 

I always prefer as many points of contact as possible on my locos for reliable running, including the tender wheels (but usually draw the line at bogie wheels).  Having dismantled the Hornby Black 5 loco mechanism and then struggled to get it back together again, I was even more determined to keep tender current collection on this one, as the loco pick ups rely on surface contact between the copper strips and contacts on the loco chassis making current collection by loco alone particularly 'fragile' on this model..  This is exacerbated by the fact that the strips don't seem to be particularly securely retained in position by the keeper plate.  So while in theory (especially with the sprung rear axle) loco pick up should be sufficient, I wanted the tender to collect as well as a 'belt and braces' solution.  I'm sure it would be possible to 'hard wire' the loco pick ups, but I didn't fancy wielding a soldering iron in that area of the loco, and wondered how I could solder wires to the pick ups without affecting the fit of the keeper plate.

 

Having said all that, I do appreciate that tender pick ups add drag (and my home made ones possibly more so than factory fitted), but I only need my locos to haul a maximum of six coaches on a terminus to fiddle yard layout, so perhaps my requirements aren't as demanding as other people's.  As you can see from my thread on detailing the Black 5, I did have to add some weight in the smokebox to counter the lifting effects of the spring I added to keep the bogie on the road, otherwise she struggled even with five!  Instinctively, this would be expected to unbalance the loco and I considered adding weight at the rear as well to counteract this and improve traction, but there doesn't seem to be much room within the boiler for it.  Under the cab floor and cab roof would be possibilities, but anyway for now she does what I ask of her!

[RonnieS]

I dont think the current pick up from the Hornby tender underframe is worthwhile, It's not really a needed and over time the drag fom the pick ups loses you haulage,

I am experimenting on this, Bob. I have 6 Hornby Black Fives, 2 8fs and a Royal Scot with this set up. At the mo 1 8f and 1 5 have the pick ups removed. This allows a shorter Loco to tender coupling. One 5 has a shorter Loco to tender coupling with the current pick up retained. It's a difficult one to do following the MRJ article and maybe I will go a different route if I retain pick ups on the others. I think if you have live frog points scrap the pick ups.

If you have dead frog points (or a Peco double slip) keep them.

[steves17]

Without going to the ins and outs of the high sided and other exceptional tenders like the rebuilt Staniers given to Nos. 5073/4 can someone tell me if the Black 5s and Jubilees actually shared the same 4000gal tender design? Out of personal period interest and to keep things simple I'm just talking about the Mk1 riveted type. As far as I can tell both share the same wheelbase (4' 1"+7' 6"+7' 6"+5' 53/4") and the curvature to the tank looks the same to me so, ignoring livery and wiring etc if I were able to acquire an early period Bachmann Jubilee tender and plum it behind a Hornby Black Stanier would that be more or less it?   

 

Black 5 example.

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Edited June 11, 2017 by steves17

[Leander]

Without going to the ins and outs of the high sided and other exceptional tenders like the rebuilt Staniers given to Nos. 5073/4 can someone tell me if the Black 5s and Jubilees shared the same 4000gal tenders? Out of personal period interest and to keep things simple I'm just talking about the Mk1 riveted type. As far as I can tell both share the same wheelbase (4' 1"+7' 6"+7' 6"+5' 53/4s") and the curvature to the tank looks the same to me so, ignoring livery and wiring etc if I were able to acquire an early period Bachmann Jubilee tender and plum it behind a Hornby Black Stanier would that be more or less it?   

Tha's a riveted 400gallon 9 ton tender fitted to certain Black 5s, Jubilees, Royal Scots and 8Fs.

 

See the Brassmasters notes in post #2 above.

[steves17]

Deleted those two pics above as they were of the later part welded type. I did look into the Black 5s a while back but it's such a mine field and I'de forgotten x amount of what I had read. Anyway thanks for the link, time to start brushing up once more. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by steves17

[DCB]

It is odd that the oldest 00 Black Five I know of the Graham Farish  has the best tender pick up arrangement I know of with metal side frames and split axles.  It is a great shame split axle wheelsets are so rare these days as you get pickup but virtually no drag.  Lightening the Railroad Black Five tender and removing the pick ups added 2 coaches to the 3 it managed to pull up our 1 in 36 gradient, somewhat short of the Wrenn Castle with 10.....

In my case the pickups also bridge some of our isolated sections so removing them is an even bigger bonus.

[Dave Holt]

Many thanks for the replies so far, both, and oh dear, I should have known this would be a minefield!  The model I have is numbered 44668, which I understand makes it from one of the last built batches, long wheelbase, top feed on first boiler ring and 28 element superheater (from the info in MRJ 25).  In model form, this is the one which was supplied with smooth tank sides but rivets on the back.  I've already removed the rivets from the back, so I believe the tender now correctly represents a fully-welded one, and on the bright side, doesn't need to have sieve boxes.  I didn't intend renumbering it, but from the Comet list (thanks for pointing this out!), it looks as though this loco should have a part welded tender.  However I suppose one could always assume an unrecorded tender swap....  I guess the tender brake gear could come from Mainly Trains MT185; again, I hadn't spotted this product in my searches.

A minefield, indeed. According to the Wild Swan book, this loco was originally provided with a part-welded tender with roller bearings and external sieve boxes. From Dec 1951 to Aug 1955 it had an old style fully rivetted tender.. From Aug 1955 to Mar 1957, back to a part-welded type and then another fully rivetted type after that. It appears never to have had a welded tender. Quite confusing and I wouldn't fully guarantee to accuracy of this information. As always, it would be best to choose a period and obtain some photographs of your chosen locomotive at that time.

Dave.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Dave Holt