steves17

Hi Ian. Thanks for the link. Those LMS Profile books are a great addition to most people's shelves and 'LMS Review' No.1 also has an article on the 'old standard'. It mentions The LMS sold three 2P Fowlers to the S&DJR in 1928 and removed their water pick up gear giving them a non standard weight of 20T 5cwt (the LMS built new Fowlers for the 2P donors not too long afterwards). It doesn't go into much detail on the 1925 Stephensons other than having a 5T 10cwt coal capacity, no steam heating equipment and the standard weight of 21T 11cwt. I'm a bit ropy on all this now without refreshing properly but 7F No.88 is preserved with a Fowler tank on Deeley frames without breathers or a pick up dome, while possibly uniquely the holder prongs for the fire irons are on the lefthand side of the arching bracket thingy rather than in the centre. http://www.ten.rhrp.org.uk/tens/TenderInfo.asp?Ref=171 The other preserved 7F (53809) is paired with conventional Fowler No.4302, so still one of the 5 strong that Stephenson built. Presumably it has always lacked a scoop but photos do show a dome and I can't spot any breathers. The Review book passingly states some LMS Fowlers were not built with water pick up gear, some were built with steam heating and it specifies that 0-8-0s Nos.9500-9674 were steam braked only.

Some great stuff here guys 👍 Been trying to compile information on this fascinating little class and noticed there's fair amount of contradictory information on them but Their origins seems to hark to 1870 when Frövi - Ludvika Järnväg ordered a batch of back-to-back saddle tanks. They arrived in 71 and a follow up order was made in 73. The Cornish order, E643 was made just prior to the Swedish Central Railway's as theirs was designated E660. The saddle tanks had a capacity of a 1000gals over the 780 figure for the combined side tanks but while the wheelbase and drivers were equal the cylinders for the Cornish engines were larger 16.25"x20" over 14"x18. and likewise the heating surface was greater 823.5sq. ft. vs 741sq. ft. Trevithick obviously had some influence on the design but as can be seen Sharp Stewart must of done a lot of the heavy lifting. William Richardson Roebuck ordered the 18 tanks in 73 but the 15 unnamed engines were completed in 74. They arrived as the roundhouse and other parts of the network were still under construction. Roebuck was caught out by the overproduction of China clay and the envisaged traffic on the CMR was never reached. As such it's believed a number of the 18 builds were never steamed while it's not clear if they ever worked back-to-back either. In 77 Roebuck opened negotiations with the GWR to work the line and this was signing was sanctioned on the 10th of August for them to do so on the 1st of October. The GWR kept on 9 to operate the traffic while 3 were sent back to Sharp Stewart to settle some of the outstanding £43200 they were bought for. The remaining six were stored at St Blazey and in the early part of 1880 W.J.Man inspected five of them officially for the Lynn & Fakenham but more so as a favour for John Crabtree, the Managing Director of the CV&HR, who was keen to curtail the renting of engines from the GER. Finances only allowed for one engine to be purchased and Works No.2358 was acquired on the 8th of May. It does not seem the engine returned to its maker and based on the fact that the CMR numberplates are still in place in this photo below it was not immediately repainted dark green, though a spectacle plate was soon added to make reverse running more tolerable for the crewmen. Mr W. Bailey Hawkins was both Chairman of the CV&HR and South Hetton Colliery which is no doubt how the engine was sold to the latter in 89, by which time it had already been renamed Haverhill. It survived long enough for become NCB property but was cut up between the 18th of May & 2nd of July 1948. Prior to a photo taken on the 15th of April 1933 No.2 was already in its final form feating dumb buffers, a built up chimney, an iron and wooden cab and a rear bunker, the original coal space area having been cut back to make some room for this set up. between books such as 'The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway Part Three Absorbed Engines' which states that the three sold back to Sharp Stewart were given bunkers, while the diagram featured in 'An illustrated History of M&GNJR Locomotives' shows the firm only extended the roof and added some kind of back sheet in place of the original 'walk through' design. Anyhoo I'm wondering if anyone can clear up whether the five sold to the Lynn & Fakenham were purchased and sent to Sharp Stewart & Co for their tender fitting in March 81, or if this is when they were delivered to the Lynn & Fakenham (Absorbed says they were sold at this point while 'The Midland & Great Northern Joint Railway and its Locomotives' states this is when the already delivered three were reunited with the five with their tenders already added). Also a bit of long shot but does anyone reading this own 'The Colne Valley and Halstead Railway' by Peter Page? It looks a good modern book over previous softbacks on the line, but a bit reluctant to fork out £40+ without knowing if there's anything of note on the lone engine that found its way there and later South Hetton Colliery. Regards Steve

Hi Matti Out of interest did anything come of the 403 kit notion? Regards Steve

Oooh just found out about this title and will be picking up a copy pronto 👍 Regarding the Part 2 on the go would it happen to include anything on the what-if moguls? I presume the four 1921 Beyer Peacock tenders germinated from the ARLE's abandoned task of achieving a BR style standard class design, but this compact 2-6-0 drawing to fit the CR's turntables is something I've only just come across. https://steamindex.com/locotype/arle.htm Regards Steve

It's a Barclays & Co engine rather than some similar Andrew Barclay engines that worked at The Harrington Ironworks & Collieries Works. No.214 seems to of been built c1874 and used as a contractor engine on the Carlisle Goods Avoiding Lines project which started that same year and completed in 1877. Next it served on the Distington to Rowrah Railway contract, the Rowah branch connecting with the Rowrah & Kelton Fell Railway, which is where it was sometimes loaned as that railway only owned the Neilson 'Kelton Fell' (preserved). The engine seems to of been named 'Ennerdale' when acquired by the Cleator & Workington Junction Railway, though it shouldn't be confused with the 0-6-0ST 'Ennerdale' that the Furness Railway absorbed from the Whitehaven, Cleator & Egremont Railway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleator_and_Workington_Junction_Railway http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/kelton_tom_jenkins_photos.html

I'm not interested in signing up with Gold or trying to tinker with my Ad block settings etc but this new in your face arrangement is frankly naff. As only an occasional user of this forum it's not the end of the world (especially as I can place the edge of the page beyond the right edge of the screen) but I can't see much new blood sticking around if they get bombarded every time they go to a new page. Said my peace

Much obliged, was completely on the wrong track for finding that Rice article! Neil I've got a copy lined up if need be but it would be great to see some sort of preview before committing bread Also yes Marc Dobson very interested to know how you fair with the Spitfire hunt as and when. Don't imagine they or the Scottish archive will have a blueprint for the Miner/Smelter design but it would be a boon to find out they've survived also.

Where would these be from if I might ask? I know a Smelter drawing by Iain Rice is in the June 78 issue of Model Railways but having trouble pining down his 0-6-0ST depiction of Miner. Steve

Ah missed these recent posts but as it happens Silver Tay Models produced a set of custom G3 scale plates for me earlier this year. The West Somerset PDF drawing was the starting point but enhanced the design through an old Neilson advert, a kindly forwarded photo of an old mineral tender design and the book 'British Locomotive Builders' Plates : A Pictorial Guide' (sadly it lacked an example of the unusual long type but still handy for filling in some details). Some are repeats from the previous pages but as I'm posting here's a condensed list of Neilsons to try and make some sense of their changing prototypes. *I own no copyright, below is just for informative purposes and to preserve some images from expired links. Thanks also to those who found some of these obscurities as well as dispel some falsely identified members. *Engines are standard gauge unless stated otherwise. Works No.47 Drivers 3' 0" Cylinders 10"x18" Boiler 110psi (seems high to me) Dalmellington Iron Company No.1 was delivered from Neilson & Mitchell in 1851. Although soon outclassed this little engine survived in service until 1882 despite a boiler explosion in 68! Full story can be found in the book 'Dalmellington Iron Company: Its Engines and Men'. Works Nos. 49 &50 It's not clear what these were but it's said Troon Harbour/Kilmarnock & Troon owned two 4-wheeled tanked engines in 1851. Given no evidence of piano nor round saddle tanks have come to light for the early years I'm inclined to believe these and the rest below were box variants. Works No.65 Dalmellington Iron Company No.2 was built in 1854 but sadly not photographed it seems. With her tank extending over the chimney it was said to be similar to their later No.5 (see Works No.1129 below), but was a bad steamer throughout its life and taken out of service for rebuilding in 1879. Ultimately this did not progress and it was left in parts with its replacement saddle surviving into the late 20s. Again David L Smith's book gives more detail. Work Nos.81 & 82 Drivers 3' 6" (8 spoke). Cylinders 11"x 18" Boiler 90psi 10ft long Firebox 3' 6" long Weight 12 tons Cost of both engines along with the new wagons was £5047 19s 9d. Miner & Smelter were delivered for the 4ft Redruth & Chasewater Railway in November 1854 but proved to be ruff on the track. To cure their short wheelbase and rear overhang 2' 6" trailing wheels were added in winter 56 complete with brake blocks as Neilson's handbrake applied only on the rear driving wheels was not adequate on the line's gradients. Maintenance was difficult with only two engines so a third and more powerful one arrived in 59 (see No.540 below). In 1870 Smelter was re-boilered and this overhaul seems to have left her much as she was prior, *Said to of been taken in August 1872. The patched tank is showing its age though there is no evidence of a brake set on the trailing wheels. while Miner was more ambitiously rebuilt the year prior into a heavier 0-6-0ST to bring her near in line with Spitfire. Cylinders 12"x18" Boiler pressure 120psi *Beside said boiler an old school Haycock firebox was fitted along with new cab sides, a new box tank, worm gear drive (the same set up applied to Spitfire that could cope with wet sand) and a rear coal bunker. On top of that was a spectacle plate, but it proved unpopular with the crews and was soon removed. It's possible the rear frames were altered again to accept the rear drivers and the length extension, but imagine the frames were completely replaced. Altogether little of the original engine appears to be left and the large bunker plates proudly stated 'Redruth & Chasewater Railway Company - Manufactured at Devoran Works 1869'. *Not sure where Iain Rice got such a specific wheelbase from nor why he has quoted 3' 9" wheels, but the extra drivers do match the style of the original 8 'T' spoke cast wheels. As the railway's fortunes declined so did loco and track maintenance and the un-rebuilt Smelter became an emergency use engine while Miner became the mainstay and in 1915 had the 'honour' of pulling the final trains lifting up the track. ?? Said to be taken in 1855, possibly at the Neilson works. http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/onecylinder/onecylinder.htm ?? Details are lacking but the Monkland Railway was said to of owned an 0-4-0ST in 1855 and this later became North British Railways No.282. Works Nos.344, 345, 350, 351, 367 & 368 Cylinders 12"x18" The Ebbw Vale Company ordered six box tanks from Neilson in 1855 and these were built and presumably delivered in pairs that year. Details on these six are sketchy at best, * This photo doesn't show it but the settings on another copy printed in an old article makes a toolbox close to the tall chimney visible. but one was named GEN. WILLIAMS, *Taken after the 11th of September 1878 underground explosion. *Between c1893-5, Victoria works, outside of the Victoria blast furnaces. Now an ogee tank with a few other changes. https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/news-photo/photograph-showing-an-industrial-landscape-with-the-workers-news-photo/90777577?adppopup=true another Newport, *1896 at Watchet. Despite being rebuilt in 1895 this engine appears to have been scrapped in 1900. and another who's name I've not been able to deduce. It's something like 'MEMBE COMJ' which is nonsensical and not a match of any of the recorded names, but the first three letters I'm reasonably sure about being correct. *The quality of this upload is very poor but while it only makes up a small potion of it a large photo hanging in the Ebbw Vale Works Museum is worth a look at if you get the chance to visit. This rebuild obviously has a round tank like Newport, but otherwise is similar to ogee form Gen Williams in terms of retaining the diagonal dumb buffers and (bar the rear height extension) the style of the bunker. *Looking at the Newport photo it can be seen the 'cab' area is a little different to the other two. This might simply be down to the rebuilding, but it might also be the three pairs were not cosmetically identical when new and this would explain the coal bunkers being curved and the lack of flaring at the rear. With such limited material it's down to a fair bit of guess work I'm afraid. Works No.349 This engine falls within the six above but the 0-4-0ST owned by Colvilles LTD of Calderbank Ironworks near Airdrie was said to be an inside cylinder type so there's some doubt about it being a possible box tank. Works No.354 This 0-4-0ST also falls with the above six but for simplicity will cover it and the next two separately. It was owned by Gartsherrie Ironworks in Coatbridge and like so many entrees here information is scarce so hard to confirm or dismiss it being a box tank. Works No.359 One of the single cylinder boxes. Built in 55 for Colvilles LTD, Calderbank Ironworks near Airdrie. I have it listed as standard gauge so that would seem to rule it out being the photographed engine several above. Works No.366 Built in 1855 this 0-4-0ST went to the Baileys' Line (later Brynmawr and Nantyglo Mineral Branch) near Ebbw Vale. Works No.369 Another mysterious pug for the Baileys' Line (later Brynmawr and Nantyglo Mineral Branch), near Ebbw Vale. This one is listed as being built in 1855. Works No.370 Cost £1055 0s (£1065 with delivery expenses) Drivers 3' 6" Cylinders 12"x18" Boiler Pressure 60lbs (seems low but suggested this was raised to around 90lbs in later days) Weight 13tons (In working order) Length over buffers 21' 6" Wheelbase 5' 0" Due to tying overlaps with the Ebbw Vale Company the West Somerset Mineral Railway ordered a box tank from Neilson in the latter half of 1856 to assist with construction of the network. It arrived in November, though there were some differences to the six strong batch design such as the tank pattern. *1889 'The Box' seen at the top of the Brendon Hill incline. By December 96 the loco was worn out and replaced by one of the Ebbw Vale six. After a period of storage it went to Ebbw Vale and was scrapped in 97. Works No.371 Cylinder arrangement is unstated but an 0-4-0ST? was possibly acquired by Colvilles LTD for Calderbank Ironworks near Airdrie in 56. Works No.373 Another for Calderbank Ironworks near Airdrie in 56. This box is said to have been a single cylinder so it's quite possible Works No.371 was also. Works No.374 Another for Gartsherrie Ironworks, Coatbridge. The year 1859 instead of 1856 is listed for this outside cylinder, but unless acquired secondhand or a long held onto stock engine is erroneous. Works Nos. 376 & 377 More single cylinder 0-4-0STs for Colvilles LTD, Calderbank Ironworks near Airdrie. Works No.390 Another 1859? engine for Gartsherrie Ironworks, Coatbridge. Again the listed year can't be when it was built. Works No.391 Cost £1049 7s Works No.370 had its fire lit in Jan 1857 while unknowingly the boiler had been drained overnight. Seriously damaged a replacement engine was ordered while it was to be sent away for repair. The new engine arrived in late February but in August was involved in a crash with the not long returned first engine! It does not seem to of steamed again after this, possibly broken up for parts. Works No.392 This engine's date is likewise problematically listed as 1859. Perhaps a stock engine that was later sold but contractor Morris & Crampton owned 'Cubitt' and it was hired by the LCDR for constructing the Sittingbourne-Sheerness Railway. This line opened in 19/07/60 and the engine was returned after 28/08/60. In 1865 the LCDR used it again for constructing the Otford-Mailing-Maidstone railway. In 1873 it was at Otford Brickworks, which provided for constructing the Otford-Mailing-Maidstone line. Here it was used as a stationary boiler but exploded in 76! Works No.393 I have no data for the wheel formation or if it was even a pug so a passing entry for this 1859 engine for Colvilles LTD Glengarnock Iron & Stee Works in Kilbirnie. Works No.407? 1857? 10"x18" cylinder engine used by Bassey & Falsaw for constructing part of the Inverness & Aberdeen Railway. Authorised 21/07/56, opened between Nairn-Dalvey 22/12/57, 25/03/58 to Elgin & 18/08/58 for Elgin to Keith. Works No.416 This photo is of Peter Holmes' model based on a Neilson drawing dated 6th of April 1857. At least two single cylinder engines are said to of operated on the 3' 3 1/2" gauge Barrow Haematite Steel Co or the Mouzell haematite mines network. Works No.?? I am not sure what to make of this Park Mines engine rebuilt with a cab, can anyone help? The fact it has two cylinders implies it's not one of the two or so single cylinder types sent out to Cumbria, though the design does appear to share the same 3' 2" pattern wheels. Works No.422 Drivers 3' 6" Cylinders 12"x 18" Boiler Pressure 120lbs Tractive Effort 6295lbs (85%) Heating surface 392 sq ft (tubes 353 sq ft, firebox 39 sq ft) Grate Area 12 sq ft Weight 16tons Water capacity 530 gallons Wheelbase 5' 9" (to be looked at again) Apparently built as a stock engine in 1859 it was sold to the Findhorn Railway prior to its BoT inspection on the 9th of April 1860. Although another engine was borrowed for this Captain Tyler still managed to criticise the cheap purchase. Despite this after he'd been assured it would not exceed 10mph the line was approved for passenger services (a lone 1st class coach believed to be a Brown Marshall design originally owned by the Inverness & Aberdeen Junction Railway with 3rd class travelling in the brake van). The line's finances were never good and after being leased to the I&AJR in 62 both were absorbed into the Highland Railway in June 65. HR No.16 passed through Lochorm Works in 66 and William Stroudley rebuilt it with Stephenson link motion. The engine continued its usual work until Jan 69 when it was transferred to Inverness to preform shunting duties. On the 6th of August 72 an offer of £600 from contractor John Scott was approved by the board and the engine soon departed to help build the northernmost section of the Sutherland and Caithness Railway which made it the first locomotive to reach Thurso and Wick. After the work was fulfilled it went south to aid construction of the Dunfermline & Queensferry Railway, though after the 1875-77 Dunfermline Contract records of the engine have been lost to time. Works No.424 According to 'Industrial Locomotives of Scotland' Works No.462 was purchased new in 1860 by Dixon's Ironworks LTD at Govan Glasgow and was their No.1 engine. There is no direct proof this was a box but the No.2 two below was built in-house around 4 miles away the same year and is said to of had Neilson style gab valve gear and 3' 6" wheels. No other Neilson pugs pre-date these two engines so I'd wager No.2 was reversed engineered shortly after No.424 arrived. Along with another Neilson (see No.699 below) a number of Andrew Barclay pugs were purchased so it seems reasonable to assume the firm had a liking of these rugged designs. A scrapping date is not given up but a new No.1 was built in house in 1901, was some of the Neilson recycled into this 0-4-0ST? ?? https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/1998-39524 It's quite possible this engine was Works No.1082 but for now at least believe it to be the stepping stone for Neilson's smart run of piano tanks. The photo was taken New Year's day 1867, and on the nineteenth of February an agreement had been signed between contractors Peto & Betts, Kelk and Waring Bros and the GWR & LNWR to enable them to run earth trains over the West London Railway between Earls Court Junction and Shepherds Bush. This was for the Metropolitan District Railway contracts, but Peto & Betts soon dropped out and Lucas Bros took their place. 'Industrial Railways & Locomotives of the County of London' only otherwise states this 0-4-0ST Neilson to be 'No.6' or '8' so we have no build date or Works No to pivot off. Without some sort of upheaval it's highly unlikely the tank is a replacement so would argue the engine is still very much in as built condition. Running with that there is little else to add except noting the drivers with the rods connected between the spokes and the spare holes being covered over (possibly including counter balance weighting) appear to share the same pattern as the engine above. The splasher feature covers a few box builds around this time so not much of an aspect to cling to, but the leading leaf spring also looks to be of the same design and the fallback plate is solid rather than just a bar frame. Other features are both sets of bunkers being curved while the smokebox door pattern of the ogee matches up with the mystery box snapped outside Neilson's workshops a few below, though that engine has a different drivers pattern and at least the upper section of the fall back bar is without sheeting. It should be noted that apart from the tank style this engine is otherwise very similar to the no thrills box tanks and not the flush riveted series of ogees which also did not sport the outdated Gab gear. No.2 , Not a Neilson William Dixon LTD, Calder near Airdrie Said to be built in-house at Govan Ironworks in 1860 this No.2 engine featured Neilson style gab valve gear, 3' 6" wheels and 12"x20" cylinders. It's scrapping date is not given but a few other 0-4-0ST were also built there while a number of Barclay Pugs are also purchased, presumably of their box variety too. Works No.447? Drivers 3' 6" Cylinders 12"x 18" or 13"x18" Wheelbase 5' 91/2" Going off the table contained in 'Early Railways of West Fife: An Industrial and Social Commentary' this engine was Works No 447 delivered in March 1858 for the price of £1255 and was one of Neilson's standard box tanks, https://www.steamindex.com/locotype/nbrloco.htm though according to 'Industrial Locomotives of Scotland' Works it was Works No.462. This latter book agrees with the 58 date and goes onto say it was purchased new by Thomas Spowart & Co and sent to the Elgin & Wellwood Collieries. In 62 it was sold to the Elgin Railway/West of Fife Railway in and absorbed into the NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY in 65 and became No.165. It was renumbered 165A in 1875 and 24 in 1881 which is when it was also rebuilt (quite substantially based on the photo below). In 1884 it became No.24A, No.833 in 1895, No.1033 in 1903 and withdrawn in 1903. If anyone has any service info, specs etc to add I'd be grateful. Works No.462? Cost £1420 Cylinders 14"x 20"? Wheelbase 5' 7"? ('5ft coupled wheels' mentioned in 'Locomotives of the North British Railway 1846-1882') Records on this engine are confused. The official Cowlairs list describes it as a tender engine but a table contained in 'Early Railways of West Fife: An Industrial and Social Commentary' states it to be a saddle tank. It might be a tender truck was attached or simply the former source is incorrect but the latter details this engine being designed by A. Allan specially for use at Elgin Colliery and it was delivered in September 1858. 'Locomotives of the North British Railway 1846-1882' mentions it being built for Elgin Colliery in either 1858 or 59 and both 14"x18" and 14"x20" dimensions are listed for the cylinders. along with it being a '5ft coupled engine'. Given mention of A Allan's hand in the engine's design I trust 14"x20" specs for the cylinders is correct and it being a special would also explain the higher cost, but regardless this engine was absorbed from the West of Fire Mineral Railway & Harbour Company and became North British Railway No.165, 165A in 1875 and withdrawn in 1882. Works No.483? Cost £1285 Drivers 3' 6" Cylinders 13"x18" or 14"x 18" Wheelbase 5' 91/2" Both 'Early Railways of West Fife: An Industrial and Social Commentary and 'Locomotives of the North British Railway 1846-1882' are harmonious concerning this engine being a standard Neilson box tank, the former going further by stating it to be apparently identical to Works No.447 and with that think it's safe to consider the mention of 14"x20" cylinders to be erroneous. This engine was likewise absorbed from the Fife into the NBR and became No.167. It was rebuilt in 1873, became No.167A in 1877 and withdrawn in 1887. *Double check green book that it was not 77! https://www.steamindex.com/locotype/nbrloco.htm Works No.540? *While the gauge is correct there's current doubt on whether the Neilson drawing below is the same engine due to detail differences and a problematic date. Cost £1340 Drivers 3' 6" (10 spoke) Cylinders 12"x18" Boiler 100psi With the two 1854 engines barely coping with traffic the Redruth and Chasewater Railway in 58 asked Neilson a quote for a more powerful engine, which they provided in December. The board stalled to get quotes from other builders but around Late May/Early June came back to Neilson and the engine was delivered in September, though as a box tank instead of a tender engine as originally offered! While somewhat similar to a number of Ogees this is the only six wheeled box tank I'm aware of that the firm built and it quickly took charge of the tougher duties. https://www.facebook.com/devoranrailwaycentenaryfestival/photos A rebuild in or around 94 ruined the engine thanks to a locally built replacement firebox being too big for the frames and Miner took its place as the top engine, but like the other two still managed to remain in service until the line's end. Works No.563 Cost £1250 Drivers 3' 6" Cylinders 12"x18" Wheelbase Boiler 95psi (tested to work between 90 & 100) Tractive effort 4397lbs at 75% pressure Not a box but discounting a few of the above in overhauled form this engine built for stock in 1860 is a contender for Neilson's earliest piano tank. All in all this is a different breed of engine and despite a seven year gap is remarkably similar with the below ogees in terms of the flush rivets, running plate, hookah dome, the shaped dumb buffers and the cutout in the fallback plate to presumably help with utilising fire irons and such. The main visual difference between it and the three all purchased by unrelated parties is that the tank was recessed at the front and the bunkers were more angular, rather like the GER's four 'Coffee Pots' delivered between 74 and 76 in fact. This engine or a sister design (Works No.665 built in 61) was trialled by the Caledonian on Greenlock's Harbour Branch Railway in October 61 where horses were still being used. After receiving high praise it was purchased in 62 along with the other mentioned engine and became CR No.236. Two further examples were built new for the CR in 62 (Works Nos.808 & 809). This first member of the '236 Class' was renumbered No.141 in 1872 and auctioned in 1880 to contractor Jackson & Sons & used for building the Oban Line. Later it was broken up to rebuild sister engine Works No.908, which after a subsequent sale to Brownside Coal Co survived to around 1895. Works No.571 Drivers 3' 6"? Cylinders 10"x16" Wheelbase 4' 9" Built in 1860 for the Whitehaven Hematite Iron Co it was bought by the Joint Committee in 1862 as their No.15. This organisation was set up to pool the locomotives of the Whitehaven & Furness Junction Railway and the ____ in order to conserve money and ease day-today operations. It was employed on passenger trains along with a Fletcher & Jennings A Class by the name of Banshee. The Neilson went by 'Bob Ridley' (from the song Old Bob Ridley) and in turn became Furness Railway No.50 when the company was absorbed in 1866. Between 1877 to the end of 1882 the FR was responsible for shunting the Whitehaven Docks network but on the 1st of January 83 the contract was taken over by Joseph Moore who purchased Banshee while No.50 was pensioned off to Whitehaven contractor Richard Cousins who put it to work on the Redness Point stone quarry, though by 1896 it was transferred back to the harbour. Cousins sold it this same year to Messers Ramsey Bros, Founders and Engineers of the Phoenix Foundry on Albion St and this is when it was it gained the name Phoenix. In October 1898 the Ramsey Bros contract was renewed and the Neilson was sold to the Ellenbrorough Colliery Co near Maryport where it became their No.3. It is believed the engine lasted till February 1918 when it was probably sold as scrap. I'm not sure how long past 1908 it was actually operational but it would of been one of the last examples of a Gab gear locomotive by then and a lovely S scale model was made by Bill Pearce some years ago. http://www.s-scale.org.uk/gallery19.htm Works No.601 Drivers 3' 6"? Cylinders 10"x18"? Listed as built in 1861 (dispatched seems more likely to me as the Build No should make it 1860 by my reckoning) for Glasgow Iron Works. It later came south to Duston Iron Ore Co and this must of been prior to December 74 as Neilson has records for supplying spares to the later named Northamptonshire Iron Co on the 30th of December that year. Its role at Duston Quarries was reduced with other motive power later on the scene and it seems to be the engine loaned to Loddington Ironstone Co Ltd between November 94 to October 96. The photo below seems to be when it came back as the rectangle add on below the build plate appears to read 'Died at Duston October 1896'. Presumably then it was stuck on for this posed scene to commemorate the engine before cutting it up. The running plate complete with miniature splashers is no doubt an in-house modification (interesting sloping at the front end) and even more interesting is the plating added to the drivers. I trust this was an attempt to add low centre adhesion similar to a few Manning Wardles rather than being dust covers, but certainly a neat job whatever their purpose. In fact other than said modifications the engine looks to externally be in very good condition for its age, note also evidence of lining on the bunker. Works No.7__? Came across this online as an expired eBay listing. According to the Museum of Scottish Railways it was built in 62 and snapped at Garnkirk Station in 1894. This would make it 32 years at the time yet still much as built it seems with tank patches reminiscent Smelter's. Overall the design is quite similar to the 1860 'Phoenix' and the mystery build directly below. The Glasgow, Garnkirk and Coatbridge Railway was absorbed into the Caledonian but the engine is carrying neither of their liveries so I presume it remained privately owned, possibly by the Garnkirk Colliery and Brickfield Co/Garnkirk Fireclay Company which went out of business in the early 1900s. https://www.culturenlmuseums.co.uk/SIModes/Detail/26593 https://blogs.ubc.ca/buildingempire/2021/04/27/north-sea-canal/ Works No.699 According to 'Industrial Locomotives of Scotland' Works No.699 was purchased new in 1862 by Dixon's Ironworks LTD at Govan Glasgow and was their No.2 engine. Like the earlier desired engine there is no direct proof this 0-4-0ST was a box but I'd put money on it. As with Works No.422 a scrapping date is not given up ?? Another mystery build. Although books and websites state this to be the Findhorn locomotive pre-rebuild this photo taken outside the Neilson workshop is a different engine based on certain differences such as the rivet pattern around the edge of the saddle tank, the lack of visible cylinder steam pipes, the exposed cab rear and the wheel pattern etc. Higher resolution copies would be ideal to really study them in detail but while they are similar suggesting close build dates it is not the Garnkirk engine either based on the covering between the tank and cylinders, the different chimney, buffers, cab rear, higher placement of the build plate etc. Concerning the buffers it's worth noting the angular shape is the same sported by the ogees. It might be possible this engine was one of the two sent to Dixon's Ironworks. Works No.593? Contractor Henry Lee & Son https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Henry_Lee_and_Son were brought in for the construction of the North Sea Canal between 1865 and 76 to allow larger ships between the North Sea and Amsterdam. https://www.dredgepoint.org/dredging-database/owners/henry-lee-sons *Painting does not identify the engine. *An Andrew Barclay it seems, will be removing this photo shortly. Details are lacking but I trust this photo is of the 1860 build. https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/aanleg-van-het-noordzeekanaal-guicherit-rudolph/1AEKBnhX4Wb_eQ?hl=en https://blogs.ubc.ca/buildingempire/2021/04/27/north-sea-canal/ Works No.697 From what I understand up to eight engines worked the Holyhead Breakwater's 7ft gauge metals at various points including this Neilson built in 1862. In 1872 she was sold to the Ponta Delgada harbour on São Miguel (an island on the Atlantic Ocean) thanks to the Holyhead breakwater contractor J.& C.Rigby being responsible for the construction of this new breakwater project (some other equipment also being transferred as well). The railway was intermittently used up to 1973 and sadly this is when the engine was scrapped. https://www.sinfin.net/railways/world/acores.html https://churcher.crcml.org/Articles/Article2010_08.html https://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/azores01.htm Works No.929? Another Henry Lee build. *As with the other canal project painting this is just a stand in en lieu of proper photo. *Likewise a misidentified Andrew Barclay to be moved outside of this list. Another Henry Lee & Son Neilson. Again not sure if I've the right photo matched up but believe it was the 1863 build due to it being a larger build. Works No.978 Another Brunel gauge ordered for the Holyhead Breakwater and delivered in 63. I cannot find much on this J.& C.Rigby engine but from the General Arrangement dated December 26th 1862 the old IRS footnote of it being an outside cylinder design is incorrect while the dome is very similar to the one Works No.697 sports in the above photo. General Arrangement dated 6th of January 1864. A drawing listed as 'NBL/2/2/5972 Drawing of N C & K de Witt Amsterdam 10" Mineral 4'8 1/2" Gauge 0-4-0T Order No. ????, Drawing No. 5972 06-01-1864' in the National Railway Museum archive shows an ogee tank, but unlike the stock engine the Caledonian purchased it is of the more primitive design with just brakes on the back of the rear drivers, while the tank also extends over the smokebox. Other notable features depicted are curved coal bunkers, a short width fallback sheet and vertical wooden dumb buffers. The mention of '10 mineral' suggests 10" cylinders which is surprisingly weedy for this point in time. Works No.1082 *ogee photo was here, still being updated. Not a box tank obviously but this engine snapped on New Year's day 1867 does share a lot of features with some of the earlier builds such as the wheels and splashers, so can be considered a stepping stone to Pinkie built in 1867 (bottom left) and the subsequent, more standardised piano and round saddle tanks. 'Industrial Railways & Locomotives of the County of London' lists Peto & Betts, Kelk & Waring Bros being awarded the Metropolitan District Railway Contracts but Peto & Betts dropped out and Lucas Bros took their place. The ogee is said to have been snapped in Jan 67 which isn't long before 19/02/67, when the contractors signed an agreement with the GWR & LNWR to enable them to run earth trains over the West London Railway between Earls Court Junction and Shepherds Bush. For this operation the mystery Neilson is only noted to be 'No.6' or '8' but in 1865 Waring Bros & Eckersley are said to of been handling the construction of the Solway Junction Railway, the first sod being cut 28/03/65 and fully open to passenger traffic 08/08/70. The Manning Wardle on this latter contract may of belonged to Eckersley but Hunslet 'Handy' was present at both so bound to have been owned by Waring Bros. 'Contractor's Steam Locomotives of Scotland' also lists a new 12" cylinder Neilson tank engine being present, but without a wheel formation. For now at least I'm willing to believe said tank (Works No.1082) is the same engine in the later London photo. the Waring Bros & Lucas as handling the Metropolitan District Railway Contracts https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/1998-39524 *A higher res photo is contained in 'London's District Railway' Vol 1 but unfortunately the image is tight against the spine. Works No.1129 Cylinders 12"x20" Boiler 120ps Dalmellington Iron Company No.5 is said to of been an ogee when built in 1865, but around the time of receiving the replacement boiler intended for No.2 gained a box tank. *1896 This engine was never a 'good un' even after being re-boilered and the company did not order any further engines from Neilson. It carried on with lesser duties but in 1897 was present during an overnight fire in the engineering shop and was scrapped December 99. Works No.1247 Cost £827 Drivers 3' 6" Cylinders 12'x18" *Might of been 10"x18". Boiler 100psi Tractive Effort 4628lbs (75%) Built as a stock engine around August 1865 it seems it became the Caledonian Railway's second No.123 after an order was agreed to between March & early April 67. Delivered to Greenhill in late April it was sent north to carry out ballasting duties. It was renumbered 151 in 72 and 521 in 77. By 82 is was described as 'worn out' and withdrawn in 84. 'Caledonian Railway Locomotives : The formative Years mentions this to be a box tank but I'm a little dubious given the late date. It's possible as Neilson were not always consistent but would really love to see a photo to confirm or dismiss. Finally not a Neilson but for a bit of variety I'll add this Neath Abbey Ironworks narrow gauge example, though I've since been informed it started off with a round saddle tank! *The Black Hawthorn note on this linked site image is wrong while there doesn't seem to be much online info for the Hutch Bank Quarries.

Hi Compound. It was just a Google grab to use as an example but i'll bare it in mind next time. My confusion came as i've also seen plenty of MR/LMS models where the interior is likewise painted grey or otherwise, https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Midland-Railway-D302-5-plank-mineral-wagon/3274887 http://www.steamline.co.uk/wph14 https://peco-uk.com/products/lms-12ton-open-goods-wagon https://therailwayconductor.co.uk/model-railway-wagons/product/graham-farish-377-064-5-plank-wagon-wooden-floor-lms-with-load and like I say i've never actually come across any text that clears up what the Midland policy was for the interior wood and metal. Thanks for the offer above but Slater's new Gauge 3 kits are all inclusive so I should be fine about the prints. https://slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=G3W027 https://slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=G3W028 Thanks Richard as well.

This isn't about the early period really but I can't seem to find a general thread dedicated to the livery of Midland wagons.......Concerning the interior is there any guidance? I've come across no notes suggesting bare wood or tan which leads me to conclude the wood and metal were likewise grey but I've come across several models where this is not so. Basically aiming to paint my wagon for between the 1910s- and the early days of the grouping and wish to know before fixing the strapping on. Regards Steve

Thanks for the speedy reply. Their issue is more not being able to get a response, possibly as they live in America. Did you order by phone or via letter+cheque etc?

Has anyone been having trouble with them recently? Asking on behalf of some acquaintances on Twitter who can't seem to get an order through. There is a bit about Covid difficulties on the site but that update was on the 15th of August and it seems like they are still trading at the moment, just struggling with demand. Regards Steve

Thomas is certainly coming along, coming along, very nicely I obviously need a good catch up through this thread but absolutely loving your Ffarquhar recreation!

Hi Ben Lol no not the technical term at all but i've never come across an official name part for them or the other set of thingamabobs closest to the cab end of the tank tops (the original batch didn't have them as constructed as they had the pipes going to the roof as seen on some other Brighton engines built prior but No.32104 lost them when it gained the E4X boiler and 2105 in April 1944 for reasons i'm unsure of). All I can tell you about the smokebox end set is that they are related to the Weir pump as when the cold injectors replaced them they disappeared.