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Alex TM

Freight on London Underground - late 1960s?

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Hi folks,

 

Having acquired a Bachmann London Transport pannier I wondered what use I could put it to.  Having looked online, and read the truly brilliant "Red Panniers", I am aware of the engineering work that the panniers did during the sixties.  What I am curious to know is whether or not any commercial freight was hauled over London Transport metals at that time.

 

As ever, many thanks in advance for any answers or pointers.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

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Hi

 

I am others will be able to tell you more but

 

Leyton to Ongar - Newbary Park central

 

Acton to west Kensington/ High street ken district

 

East finchley to High barnet / Edgware northern

 

rayners lane to harrow gas works piccadilly

 

until 1969/70 the district from bow junc to upminster was br owned and was classed as slow lines so I guess goods ran over the tracks

 

most ex br stations had goods /coal yards

 

coal usage fell away after clean air act came in in around 1964

 

I would love it it someone would write a book about goods on LT tracks

 

 

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Hi LULFAN,

 

Thanks for the response; I'll do a bit of online research to see what I can come up with in respect to those lines.

 

Many thanks.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

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Very little goods traffic passed over LT lines by that time. What there was was hauled by mainline locomotives, LT's steam locomotives were only used for their own engineering trains. There were a few coal depots that were accessed via the Underground lines but they went out of use by the early 70's if not earlier. The last 'freight' trains operated by LT were the Chiltern Court 'rubbish' trains, normally hauled by one of the Metropolitan Bo-Bo's.

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Early Diesels by Clough had a photo of a BR Diesel at Woodford c. 1967 on its way to Epping or Ongar to shunt freight. I can't remember if it was a Type 15 or 16.

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I believe that the 33s ran from Ferme Park on the ER via the Widened Lines and Blackfriars to Hither Green via Snow Hill tunnel until the late 60s when the line was closed

 

:-)

Edited by Horizontal

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Certainly class 15 and 16 locomotives would have worked freight from the ER to the SR via the Rotherhithe tunnel and the East London line when the connection between Liverpool Street and Shoreditch was still there. They would have reversed at Liverpool St.

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Certainly class 15 and 16 locomotives would have worked freight from the ER to the SR via the Rotherhithe tunnel and the East London line when the connection between Liverpool Street and Shoreditch was still there. They would have reversed at Liverpool St.

Surely you mean the Thames tunnel, the Rotherhithe tunnel is a road tunnel.

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Surely you mean the Thames tunnel, the Rotherhithe tunnel is a road tunnel.

 Yes, Brunel's thingy. That's the one. 

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Very little goods traffic passed over LT lines by that time. What there was was hauled by mainline locomotives, LT's steam locomotives were only used for their own engineering trains. There were a few coal depots that were accessed via the Underground lines but they went out of use by the early 70's if not earlier. The last 'freight' trains operated by LT were the Chiltern Court 'rubbish' trains, normally hauled by one of the Metropolitan Bo-Bo's.

Early 60s seems better then. A. Reed's Met & GC Joint Line : an observer's notes while mainly dealing with the line from Harrow-on-the-Hill northwards also has a small section on a daily LT-loco-run service from Neasden (LT) to Willesden Green, which lasted until mid-1962 before being taken over by BR locos (so, about as late as the Chiltern Court train). L.95 is noted running on the former service.

 

J. Scott-Morgan's London Underground steam memories also has images of L.97 returning empty BR coal wagons from Lillie Bridge to Kensington Olympia in Dec1962 and L.98 shunting what appear to be BR wagons at Kensington Olympia in 1967. Presumably some interchange traffic continued beyond full engineering workings (including ex-BR or BR-desgined wagons) in that case?

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I believe that the 33s ran from Ferme Park on the ER via the Widened Lines and Blackfriars to Hither Green via Snow Hill tunnel until the late 60s when the line was closed

 

:-)

Freight traffic finished through the Snow Hill tunnels in 1969, and the line was lifted n 1971. Until 1970/71 panniers still worked engineers trains into Moorgate.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/snow_hill/index6.shtml

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In addition to serving South Harrow Gas Works, there would have been coal trains on the Met in the 1960s to Rayners Lane, Eastcote, Ruislip on the Uxbridge Branch, and to Pinner and Northwood on the Watford branch as I can remember seeing the coal staithes in use, or the remains of them, at these stations. But I cannot confirm the locos used to make the drops. When they closed most of them were turned into station car parks for us commuters.

 

The Bo-Bos also delivered coal to the Met offices at Baker Street, served by a siding off Platform 1.

Edited by GoingUnderground

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Hi folks,

 

Many thanks for your time and input.  As a result I'm having to learn to juggle the laptop and an underground map at the same time ... !  I've looked at plenty of pics of the latter days of steam on the Underground and had never seen much beyond engineers stock; your answers have explained why.  That said, there seems to a great deal of variety of both that stock, and the BR stock brining in parts, etc, that there would be plenty to model as it is.  It's all food for thought.

 

Once more, many thanks.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

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Very little goods traffic passed over LT lines by that time. What there was was hauled by mainline locomotives, LT's steam locomotives were only used for their own engineering trains. There were a few coal depots that were accessed via the Underground lines but they went out of use by the early 70's if not earlier. The last 'freight' trains operated by LT were the Chiltern Court 'rubbish' trains, normally hauled by one of the Metropolitan Bo-Bo's.

 

 

 

 

The Bo-Bos also delivered coal to the Met offices at Baker Street, served by a siding off Platform 1.

 

I've always thought that the Chiltern Court siding at Baker Street would make a great 'bitsa' micro layout

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/63309-micro-layout-ideas-rapid-transit/&do=findComment&comment=865110

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G'Day Gents

 

Yes the widened lines catered for a lot of freight, mostly coal but some general goods, my avatar, is a J52, at York Rd station, Kings Cross in the 1930's heading over the widened lines, loco's that worked through Snow Hill were J50,J52,N1, N2, diesels, inc, 08 and class 24.

 

manna

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Hi Alex

 

Only just come across your site.

 

Not really late 60s, but I well remember back in the early 60s going to evening classes and returning from Euston Square to Kings Cross St Pancras at about 8:00pm (only one station -- lazy s*d wasn't I).

 

But the real reason was to hope to see the early evening steam freights running from Paddington to Smithfield Meat Market -- which ceased when the market closed down for redevelopment.

 

The pannier tank would be heading probably 8/10 vans and brake, all BR to Smithfield. Sometimes I would see empties returning to Paddington. I would often miss my train waiting to see them. It has been said that the panniers had condensing equipment, but I don't recall this. A note I read elsewhere stated that the panniers were fitted with cab curtains to reduce smoke and fumes!

 

It was of course great fun to watch and to remember.

 

Patrick

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Hi Alex

 

Only just come across your site.

 

Not really late 60s, but I well remember back in the early 60s going to evening classes and returning from Euston Square to Kings Cross St Pancras at about 8:00pm (only one station -- lazy s*d wasn't I).

 

But the real reason was to hope to see the early evening steam freights running from Paddington to Smithfield Meat Market -- which ceased when the market closed down for redevelopment.

 

The pannier tank would be heading probably 8/10 vans and brake, all BR to Smithfield. Sometimes I would see empties returning to Paddington. I would often miss my train waiting to see them. It has been said that the panniers had condensing equipment, but I don't recall this. A note I read elsewhere stated that the panniers were fitted with cab curtains to reduce smoke and fumes!

 

It was of course great fun to watch and to remember.

 

Patrick

Great memory's for you if only you had had a camera !!

 

What a good idea close a rail head into a market, turn it into a car park and send all the goods into it by road - we never learn

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The Lillie Bridge freight transfer carried on until the end of steam on LT. The Acton (actually Brent)-West Ken and Ken. High Street coal trains have been covered elsewhere on here and District Dave. I remember seeing Brush type 2s on freight on the Central and Barnet lines in the mid 1960s.

 

The tunnel approaches at East Finchley and Leytonstone were protected by mercury filled tubes over the track; anything too high would break the tube and the signal would return to danger, so preventing main line stock entering the tunnel.

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I spent several months on secondment to Chiswick (Bus) Works in the summer of 1968 and there was a daily late-morning LT pannier hauled train from Lillie Bridge to Acton Works (and there must have been a return working outside office hours). Although this train only conveyed materials for Acton Works, many of the wagons had worked through from the BR network via the connection from the West London Line to Lillie Bridge, and, in consequence, the train was shown in the WTT as a revenue goods train rather than a service train.

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Anyone know anything about Wellington Sidings just North of Highgate - seems to have been active into LT yeras, but what ran when and how?

 

Best,

Marcus

 

Try this thread Marcus http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/86810-highgate-wood-sidings/  which contains some very good links to the info you seek. 

 

I lived as a child near East Finchley during the 60's, and, whilst BR diesels used to run at night from Alexandra Palace through Highgate high level to various stations from East Finchley to High Barnet (not sure about Mill Hill East by then) with domestic coal until about 1966 (?), I don't recall seeing anything stabled in Wellington Sidings which were pretty overgrown as I remember by then. We used to play there through a hole in the fence, on a route from the back of Cherry Tree Woods. The tube stock used to stable on the electrified sidings at Highgate of course.

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Try this thread Marcus http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/86810-highgate-wood-sidings/  which contains some very good links to the info you seek. 

 

I lived as a child near East Finchley during the 60's, and, whilst BR diesels used to run at night from Alexandra Palace through Highgate high level to various stations from East Finchley to High Barnet (not sure about Mill Hill East by then) with domestic coal until about 1966 (?), I don't recall seeing anything stabled in Wellington Sidings which were pretty overgrown as I remember by then. We used to play there through a hole in the fence, on a route from the back of Cherry Tree Woods. The tube stock used to stable on the electrified sidings at Highgate of course.

Thank you for that, Mike. It was this layout that prompted my adding the sketch for the Archgate Hill project and posting this question. Now with a couple of books in hand and a larger sheet of paper (for I am one who still knows how to use a pencil, just don't let me near a PC...) futher thoughts and scribblings will emerge - but best attempted the other side of today's lack of sobriety! Merry Christmas!

 

Best,

Marcus

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Hi Alex

 

Only just come across your site.

 

Not really late 60s, but I well remember back in the early 60s going to evening classes and returning from Euston Square to Kings Cross St Pancras at about 8:00pm (only one station -- lazy s*d wasn't I).

 

But the real reason was to hope to see the early evening steam freights running from Paddington to Smithfield Meat Market -- which ceased when the market closed down for redevelopment.

 

The pannier tank would be heading probably 8/10 vans and brake, all BR to Smithfield. Sometimes I would see empties returning to Paddington. I would often miss my train waiting to see them. It has been said that the panniers had condensing equipment, but I don't recall this. A note I read elsewhere stated that the panniers were fitted with cab curtains to reduce smoke and fumes!

 

It was of course great fun to watch and to remember.

 

Patrick

 

In the case of the Smithfields I am pretty certain that 97xx condensing panniers were always used, all provided by Southall. I've never seen any photos of non condensing BR panniers working over the inner circle.

 

It is interesting that when LT were looking for replacement motive power they didn't even look at the condensing panniers, but opted for the 57xx instead. I believe this was due to the later full width cabs (8750s and production 97xx) would be way out of gauge between Finchley Road and Baker Street.

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Early 60s seems better then. A. Reed's Met & GC Joint Line : an observer's notes while mainly dealing with the line from Harrow-on-the-Hill northwards also has a small section on a daily LT-loco-run service from Neasden (LT) to Willesden Green, which lasted until mid-1962 before being taken over by BR locos (so, about as late as the Chiltern Court train). L.95 is noted running on the former service.

 

J. Scott-Morgan's London Underground steam memories also has images of L.97 returning empty BR coal wagons from Lillie Bridge to Kensington Olympia in Dec1962 and L.98 shunting what appear to be BR wagons at Kensington Olympia in 1967. Presumably some interchange traffic continued beyond full engineering workings (including ex-BR or BR-desgined wagons) in that case?

I think fresh supplies of rail for the London Transport network arrived at Lillie Bridge hauled by Class 25s who handed the wagons over to Panniers who also brought scrap units and other materials this way too for onward shipment to scrapyards via British Rail from photos I have seen. I only recall Panniers personally running either light engine & brake or with what looked like track trains on sundays away from Ealing Common and Acton a few times before the end I am afraid, as without the knowledge we have today and the use of mobile phones of course back then we only stumbled on such things as I was cycling from home near Kew Bridge to check out what was on shed at Old Oak Oak Common, Willesden and Cricklewood on sundays.

 

Kevin

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