Is there a worst mainline than Norwich - Liverpool St

[Satan's Goldfish]

There's probably path restrictions, but I always thought that if they treated Norwich-Ipswich-London as 1 route and Norwich-Ely-Cambridge-London as a second and made sure they were franchised to different operators then that would properly create competition and improved services along the route. From what I hear, back in 'Anglia' days it was a seperate company working commuter services at the southern end of the GEML and this competition was creating improvements, when 'one' took over both franchises the competition vanished and the standard of service fell.

 

The class 90s and mk3s may be second hand and 20+ years old, but it's one of the few places we still see loco hauled coaching stock and from an enthusiast point of view I'm sure we'll moan when they're inevitably replaced by second hand emus (pendolinos in about 10 years time?!) I think I read some opinions on another thread that when the 91s and mk4s are displaced from the ECML they could cascade to the GEML, but then it was pointed out that this wouldn't actual increase the line speed and the 90s have better acceleration (?) so the mk4 carriages would be the only 'improvement'...

[Joseph_Pestell]

EMUs would make a lot of sense on this line. Probably not Pendolinos but 5-car units of 23m stock so that shorter trains can be run outside peak hours. Or even some splitting services to offer through trains again to destinations such as Harwich.

 

We don't do politics on RMWeb but recent events may result in East Anglia getting a bit more attention from Westminster. Those 5-car mainline units could bring proper trains back to Clacton as in the days of the Class 309.

 

Peterborough to Norwich via Ely would be a very sensible electrification as it would enable diversions. By mainland European standards, the current train frequencies would justify wiring anyway.

[cromptonnut]

I get the train from Redhill in the morning.

 

There are 14 direct services to London (Victoria or London Bridge) between the 06.14 and 08.31 each morning.

 

Today, all 14 were late on arrival at their destination racking up an impressive 100 minutes of delays between them.

 

From December, Southern are redirecting 5 of the 9 London Bridge direct services to Victoria due to the reconstruction work.  You can imagine already how chaotic we think it's likely to be with half of the possible trains to London Bridge either being retimed, diverted or just cancelled requiring a change at an already overstretched East Croydon where it's almost impossible to get on a train let alone get a seat  during the morning peak.

 

Unfortunately, Southern don't seem to understand that when you work near London Bridge, a diversion into Victoria (or even via Elephant and Castle) will add half an hour each way to your commute, and that's without taking into account those for whom the tube simply is not an option for a variety of reasons.  Plus, if you have a "London Terminals" ticket rather than a travelcard, what guarantee is there that your "alternative routes" across London will be accepted by the barrier staff rather than having to pay for a tube or bus journey you don't want to be taking.

Edited October 14, 2014 by cromptonnut

[D1059]

the roads around these parts aren't much better either!

 

coming to east Anglia is like time travelling back 50 years.

 

I've been driving up to Norfolk for family reasons for 30 years (having lived there for over 10 years before that as well) and the last 2 years or so (since the dualing work on the A11 started in earnest on the final section south of Thetford) have been the worst for delays and disruption that I can remember since the late 80s. Pretty much whenever I travel there is a huge jam or a diversion somewhere

 

As to the comments on the fact that the GEML only gets cast off traction and rolling stock, consider

 

1958 - brand new class 40s

late 60s - nearly new class 47s and early Mk2 stock

1980 - 10 year old a/c fitted Mk 2's

1986 - 20 year old class 86s

1990s (?) - 10 year old Class 90s

 

Don't think the GEML has had any new stock in my lifetime - class 40s were the last brand new kit deployed out of the box to Norwich services

 

As to the ambition to have Norwich - London in 90 minutes. Dream on. Can't see that anytime soon

Edited October 14, 2014 by D1059

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Not forgetting brand new "Britannias" in the early 1950s.

[BSG75]

I travel from Colchester to Liverpool Street every day, and I don't think it helps that the area served is one of the fastest growing in the country - I have heard it said that Colchester is THE fastest growing town (from 80K to about 180K people), but I don't know if it's true.  What is true is that a lot of these new inhabitants commute to London, and the trains are creaking under the strain. Just a couple of years ago, I used to be able to get on the first car of the 06:55 and choose my seat. Now it's a mad scramble to find some in the last coach of the 12-car unit, as it has progressively got busier.

 

The double-track section between Shenfield and Colchester doesn't help either - it really needs to be quadrupled. Something disastrous happens on this stretch about once every 6 months - be it a Freightliner in the fields at Witham, or the wires down for a mile at Kelvedon - and when that happens, there is just no plan "B". Staff are overwhelmed, Information is non-existent, there aren't any substitute buses.....it's chaos, and really sticks in the mind.

 

Another perennial favourite is problems at Liverpool Street, so you get dumped off your train at Stratford, and left to fend for yourself. The queues for the Central Line are so bad that people are in danger of getting hurt and the Police are called. I've had to travel to North London via Docklands and London bridge before.

 

And to go off-topic (sorry), someone mentioned roads earlier. They are a disgrace too.  About 15 yards of the M12 built at the junction with the North Circular.....Diggers and dumpers in the fields ready to finish off dualling the last stretch of the A120.....all before being cancelled. I have no idea what we have done to deserve this.

[Classsix T]

The latest brand new direct to us stock we got were Cl.360 and 170, before that Cl.321 and prior to that...Cl.156.

Possibly 365s for King's Lynn too.

 

As the first region to do away with steam traction, previous posters seem to have forgotten “our” new stuff also encompassed diesel and electric units, Cl.24, 30, 37 and widespread introduction of BR Mk1 stock to replace ageing Gresley and Thompson coaches!

 

I don't doubt many delay minutes these days, especially in the latter part of the mainline services, could be negated with the introduction of guard controlled coach doors. 91s or no, the Mk4s would be beneficial in that respect if no other.

 

C6T.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Classsix T

[Jol Wilkinson]

When we moved to Suffolk in 2005 there was a lot of development of new apartments around the wet dock in Ipswich, about 15 - 20 minutes walk to the station. Much of this development was advertised as ideal for commuters. I doubt if any thought was given to the ability of the rail network to handle any extra capacity. 

[cromptonnut]

I doubt if any thought was given to the ability of the rail network to handle any extra capacity. 

 

They're doing the same around Redhill station and it's clear they haven't given any thought to how these people are going to get on the train either.

 

This morning's peak, for example, racked up 98 delay minutes by destination spread across 13 trains between the 06.14 and 08.31 direct services to London Bridge or Victoria (plus one train that was CAPED at Three Bridges due to a fault).  A slight improvement on yesterday's 100 minute total.

Edited October 15, 2014 by cromptonnut

[Fenman]

The latest brand new direct to us stock we got were Cl.360 and 170, before that Cl.321 and prior to that...Cl.156.

Possibly 365s for King's Lynn too.

...

 

It's a bit OT since the OP was talking about Norwich-Liverpool St, but a few West Anglia (KL-Liverpool St) services are operated by brand-new Class 379s, which were obtained as part of the Stansted new trains order (although it's one of the more dispiriting sights on the WAML when a vile 317 hoves into view instead).

 

All the 365s are due to be replaced with (almost) new 377s - stock from the infill order for Thameslink when it was realised the new 700s would not arrive early enough for the latter. I'm not a huge fan of Electrostars, but that should be a step-change in comfort.

 

Back on topic, I'd argue the KL route has suffered more than Norwich; it must be the only former InterCity route which operates most of its services without even air-conditioned stock. And while the London-Cambridge section is fast enough (and has benefitted from the Hitchin flyover), the Cambridge-Lynn section is operated more like a rural stopping service with painfully slow running on a largely singled track. Cambridge-Ely in particular suffers from crush loading at peak times, as bad as anything in London commuter-land.

 

Paul

Edited October 15, 2014 by Fenman

[pete_mcfarlane]

When we moved to Suffolk in 2005 there was a lot of development of new apartments around the wet dock in Ipswich, about 15 - 20 minutes walk to the station. Much of this development was advertised as ideal for commuters. I doubt if any thought was given to the ability of the rail network to handle any extra capacity. 

I've seen flats here in Nottingham close to the station advertised as ideal for commuting to London, so it seems to be a standard ploy regardless of the state of the train service and how long it takes. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It's 'muddle through' as always. East Anglia has for some time looked likely to be the population growth hotspot of the UK in the post industrial 'connected' economy. Relatively cheap land, not to far from the centre of the world, it's going to be the next economic boom zone. Only trouble is that its historical low population density and largely agricultural industrial past has left it with underdeveloped infrastructure. It needs a coastal motorway at least, and a whole new high speed rail route. Now where could we find the money for that?

 

Some future government may be looking at a hard and unpopular choice.

[Titan]

1990s (?) - 10 year old Class 90s

 

 Its actually worse than that, Class 90's were only introduced in the mid/late 2000's pushing 20 years of age with near 30 year old Mk3's when displaced by the WCML Pendolinos!

[D1059]

 Its actually worse than that, Class 90's were only introduced in the mid/late 2000's pushing 20 years of age with near 30 year old Mk3's when displaced by the WCML Pendolinos!

Thanks - haven't taken much notice of the GEML in many years and couldn't recall the dates

[The Stationmaster]

 Its actually worse than that, Class 90's were only introduced in the mid/late 2000's pushing 20 years of age with near 30 year old Mk3's when displaced by the WCML Pendolinos!

So let me see - the Mk3s on the GE are a year or two older than those formed in FGW HST sets.  So why are they in such an abysmal internal condition (based on the ones I have seen) compared with the HST vehicles?  Simple answer - lack of maintenance and cleaning attention.  Admittedly only a very limited acquaintance but it was very obvious to me from what I saw in Abellio-Anglia land that periodic heavy cleaning would appear to be something with which that have little more than a cursory relationship (or their passengers are incredibly harder on vehicles than those elsewhere).  I suspect also on the Mk3 that the attention they might get from coach bodywork maintainers and fitters might also be somewhat less than is seen elsewhere on HST trailer vehicles.

 

All of that in my view is not as much down to the age of the vehicles as it  is to the effort put into looking after them (speaking as someone who at various times had not a little to do with carriage cleaning methods and their application).

[Classsix T]

When we moved to Suffolk in 2005 there was a lot of development of new apartments around the wet dock in Ipswich, about 15 - 20 minutes walk to the station. Much of this development was advertised as ideal for commuters. I doubt if any thought was given to the ability of the rail network to handle any extra capacity.

Fear not! Three years after they started the Wall Street induced crash happened. Whilst quite a bit of development took place in the docks, Ipswich has been left with a rather embarrassing part finished eyesore that no property developer seems keen on finishing. At least until the market picks up again.

 

Touching on Mike's comment above, I noticed a while ago that the loco + coach sets were looking very tired externally. I put this down to the rather sorry situation of NXEA being (justifiably) unwilling to splash monies on stock it would have nothing to do with in a matter of months, and Abellio in a similar position given the caretaker franchise period they were initially granted. Of course this has probably now bit them fiscally as they finally get round to it.

 

What was that thing about turds and polish?

 

C6T.

[PGC]

I used to commute from Kelvedon into Liverpool Street in BR days, and it was pretty awful then. Sounds even worse now. The population growth in the region means the Ely to Norwich line needs to be wired, and rather than HS2, a new line should be built from Thetford through Bury St Edmunds, Haverhill and Dunmow to ease the pressure on the existing East Anglian main lines. And the whole franchising system shouldbe scrapped, as it demonstrably doesn't deliver the service it was meant to.

 

No, NIMBY!!!!!!!!!!   

 

Phil

[PGC]

... And those who insist on using their phones whilst getting off trains and walking down the stairs at chelmsford.

 

So don't any of them lose their footing and fall down the steps (accidentally, of course!) 

 

Phil

[lmsforever]

I am traveling to Harwich tomorrow and will report my experience,my trains to and from Manningtree are the mk3 ,s I think hope its not a 321!

[phil-b259]

While obviously things like the state of cleanliness inside trains and indeed the quality of maintenance and servicing are within Albinos hands, to a certain extent they are a victim of circumstance. Firstly the franchise they took on already had problems dating back to National Express's tenure in charge and secondly the franchise they won was very much a case of 'holding the line' in specification terms with no requirements from the DfT to do anything particular spectacular. The third thing is that if it wasn't for the WCML bidding fiasco and a new two year hiatus in the franchising process, Anglia would by now have been let on proper terms rather than the Government doing a deal to keep it ticking over till they can do the thing properly.

 

As to Albino staff, while not attempting to defend bad service its worth remembering that things like staff morale and general happiness with their lot will have quite an effect on how they behave to customers. Thus if the management of Albino are not projecting a positive image and seen to be caring for their staff, then said staff are more likely to be grumpy and not take pride in their work, etc. Things like on train cleaning and a proactive stance are the first to go when the staff have sunk into a "why bother" mentality. With no long term certainty as to how the franchise might pan out its easy to see how things might have ended up as they are.

 

Finally a theme that is common on both the GEML & the BML is service disruption and how trains are regularly late. While on the BML, the London Bridge works don't help the situation, observations on the operating floor at Three Bridges ASC show that by far the biggest issue is that we are simply trying to run too many trains, particularly at peak times. Things are so tight that ANY disruption to a service always results in a late arrival and very frequently delays other services. This past week for example station dwell times have been extend because passengers are waiting under canopies rather than standing in the rain then rushing out to the train when it stops or simply all trying to board through those doors that are next to the covered portion of the platform. An extra few seconds here and there might not sound like much but if said train fails to hits its slot at East Croydon delays will snowball.  Similarly the wet weather has made trains more difficult to start and stop thanks to wet rails all of which means vital seconds are lost when slowing down to and accelerating from stations.

 

Ultimately if you want to have a reliable service with no reduction in frequency further infrastructure investment is needed. On the BML an extra platform at East Croydon plus grade separation at Windmill Bridge junction would do wonders for timekeeping and train throughput, while on Anglia, provision of 4 tracks (or length dynamic loops) from Shenfield to Colchester would do wonders when it comes to train pathing and allowing opportunities to catch up time. Similarly replacing the loco hauled stock with class 444 style EMUs would cut station dwell times as well as providing more capacity per train. However such investment doesn't come cheap and will require the Government to structure the next franchise accordingly.

[Talltim]

While major improvements are not in the remit of franchise holder that is just marking time, they should still be cleaning and maintaining. If I was a ROSCO I would be writing it into the lease contract that there should be a certain minimum level and do spot checks during the lease. AFAIK the stock just has to be returned in a certain state at the end if the lease.

[beast66606]

I am traveling to Harwich tomorrow and will report my experience,my trains to and from Manningtree are the mk3 ,s I think hope its not a 321!

 

Main line should be 90s+Mk3s but there is at least one booked to be a 321 and occasional substitutions take place.

[roundhouse]

Main line should be 90s+Mk3s but there is at least one booked to be a 321 and occasional substitutions take place.

Each time that we have been to Norwich that one has been running so I suspect its not just occassional but luckily not the one we have been travelling on.

[phil-b259]

While major improvements are not in the remit of franchise holder that is just marking time, they should still be cleaning and maintaining. If I was a ROSCO I would be writing it into the lease contract that there should be a certain minimum level and do spot checks during the lease. AFAIK the stock just has to be returned in a certain state at the end if the lease.

Quite so - which is why I have suspicions that there is far more going on behind the scenes than we know about with respect to staff morale / management (people often forget that good morale is not simply the case of good pay). At the end of the day if the staff are pissed off then no ammount of hectoring from top management or even the general public will make a difference to someone's performance. In such circumstances it's a case of building trust and gradually getting from the "do the absolute minimum" mentality towards the "proud of a task well done" situation.

[roythebus]

I had to use the Norwich service about 4 years ago to attend the funeral of a friend. Travelling from Liverpool street at about 0930 the train was an 86 and Mk2 stock. The train was on time, a bit grubby from the inward journey. The staff were very helpful and we were offered breakfast at a reduced rate. That was a bargain at £7 as we were offered as much as we could eat!

 

The return journey was much the same but without the breakfast! The service was impressive, so much so that I wrote to the TOC complimenting them on their quality of service.

 

In my view as an infrequent user of trains is that Eurotunnel is very low on my list, having been stuck in the tunnel several time this year, once for up to 4 hours. ET, get your finger out.