Simond Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I have heard that GW locos sometimes had the trapezoidal panel on top of the firebox painted black, rather than the expected green. Does anyone know whether this was ever the case, and if so, when, which locos, which depots, why? Anyone with a photo please post it, or give the reference Thanks Simon Edit - typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilrh Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 As I understand it, in general, the firebox (inside the cab) was black, while the cab interior surfaces were green. It would be helpful to see a picture of which part you're questioning. But as you say, not everything was always to the "rule", so it's possible you'll find pictures showing either, it's also possible that 1 guy at 1 shed got it wrong for a short period - at least if you have a picture it demonstrates that it happened at least once, even if it turns out not to be common. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 Neil Thanks for your reply - I am referring to the flat upper surface of the belpaire firebox, just in front of the cab. On a large engine, you'd never see it from the platform, and probably not from the external footplate, but maybe from inside the cab. Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I'm certain that it would be green. Cheers, Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold nickwood Posted October 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2014 I'm certain that it would be green. Cheers, Ray. agreed, but probably covered in soot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted October 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 19, 2014 Firebox tops are /were green but cleaning did not generally reach much over the curves. I was on a railtour hauled by Clun Castle and whilst we were stopped at Banbury for water I went up on the footbridge to get a photo, I don't know what happened to it, but the the top of the boiler and firebox was pretty filthy, but from the platform she looked pristine. There is a shot of a spam can on a railtour through Dawlish in similar condition on the Dawlish through the rectangular window. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I believe that they were green but not normally lined in GWR days as shown in this image below. http://www.gwr.org.uk/gallery3/kanas79.jpg The story I have heard is that Collett saw a man fall off while painting the lining on top of the firebox. He realised that the lining would not be visible from normal viewing angles and ordered it be omitted in future to prevent further accidents. As usual, take with a pinch of salt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 thanks all I have heard stories that, like tender and side-tank tops, they were painted black. of course, this may also require the regulation seasoning! best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAustin Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I'm certain that it would be green. Cheers, Ray. But without any lining: this stopped at the top of the curve. Apparently, GJ Churchward saw a painter fall off whilst trying to line the top, and issued an order that this practice would cease. Mark A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welchester Posted October 21, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 21, 2014 The story I have heard is that Collett saw a man fall off while painting the lining on top of the firebox. He realised that the lining would not be visible from normal viewing angles and ordered it be omitted in future to prevent further accidents. Apparently, GJ Churchward saw a painter fall off whilst trying to line the top, and issued an order that this practice would cease. I'm getting a terrible sense of déja vu while reading this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I'm getting a terrible sense of déja vu while reading this thread. Although if you can substantiate either of these then it may be possible to find out when the practice ceased. If it's the story Matt relates then well into the 30's they could have been lined and with Mark then this practice ceased earlier. If both have basis in fact then someone decided to re-commence the practice and there was then a subsequent about-turn in practice? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 First I've heard of black firebox tops. Though I was born in the last year of the GWR, I was a little young to notice and living in foreign territory anyway (LMS - I soon saw the light!) BR solving the issue by not lining fireboxes at all. I read somewhere that it was GJC himself to witness the accident and issue the edict about not lining firebox tops in the first decade of the 20th century, so it would be more or less coincident with the introduction of black frames (and Belpaire fireboxes, which IMHO probably would have been the source of the problem, requiring painters to climb on top of them to do the lining. It also saved time and money, which undoubtedly clinched the deal). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 It was probably Churchward, I suspect my memory is playing tricks on me with Collett. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 It was probably Churchward, I suspect my memory is playing tricks on me with Collett. Hi, It is recorded in GWR Board minutes that Churchward requested to end the practice of lining firebox tops. This request was put before the Locomotive Committee of the Board and was aproved. During the extensive research into liveries I was involved with in the early seventies we looked into this matter with the help of several of my relatives who had worked 'inside' at Swindon. Our findings were that the story of GJC witnessing a fall were just that - a story. This is rather confirmed by the fact that painters still had to climb up to paint the GREEN onto the top anyway. The reason for Churchward's request was motivated by cost considerations and the fact that with the ongoing (at the time) introduction of flat topped Belpaire 'boxes the lining would not be visible from most public points of view, so why go to the expense of applying it. I strongly believe our findings are likely to be right. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 thanks to all. I too would expect the top of the box to be green, of course, and I really don't recall where I first heard of the "black top" theory, it was at least 15 years ago, because I painted my 47xx firebox that way, however, I did ask a retired signalman, whom I didn't know well, but who drank in my local, and he confirmed that he had seen it. Of course, this might have been "green not cleaned" rather than "black" or he might have been pulling my leg, or maybe he was just wrong. Nonetheless, a strange coincidence that I should have heard it and a different source confirm it. My King will have a green firebox top, as befits a top link engine. Weathering man - what was the date of the decision regarding lining - presumably it's minuted? best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2014 thanks to all. I too would expect the top of the box to be green, of course, and I really don't recall where I first heard of the "black top" theory, it was at least 15 years ago, because I painted my 47xx firebox that way, however, I did ask a retired signalman, whom I didn't know well, but who drank in my local, and he confirmed that he had seen it. Of course, this might have been "green not cleaned" rather than "black" or he might have been pulling my leg, or maybe he was just wrong. Nonetheless, a strange coincidence that I should have heard it and a different source confirm it. My King will have a green firebox top, as befits a top link engine. Weathering man - what was the date of the decision regarding lining - presumably it's minuted? best Simon I tend not to trust Signalmen's comments about engines any more than I trust Enginemen's comments about signalling - albeit with occasional exceptions in both cases (but they are occasional). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Holy thread resurrection, batman! Whilst looking for something entirely different, I found a picture, in colour, back cover of GWRJ, NO 14., high level view, shows a double-chimney Castle (looks like 7005) having its smokebox cleaned at Worcester, not dated unfortunately, but surely not Great Western days. The firebox top panel appears to be a very dusty whitish grey, quite different to the painted cleading, but also different to the cab roof & smokebox. The demarcation between this panel and the rest of the cleading is very well defined, so it isn't just a case if "where the cleaner could reach". The loco appears so filthy it's almost black. Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn T Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Surely the top of the firebox must get pretty hot so would discolour rapidly? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Martyn I can't see any reason why it would be significantly hotter than any other part of the boiler (unless the sun was shining ) but I'm sure it got less attention from the cleaners. The real question is "what colour were they painted?" The greater body of opinion, and probably also of evidence, says "same as the rest of the boiler" (be that green or black) but there is at least some justification for thinking that in some cases, the top was painted differently. The photo I found supports that hypothesis, but gives no clue as to the relative frequency, locality or period of such painting, or indeed, colour used. More data required... Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 This may not be representative... http://7820dinmoremanor.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/saturday-25th-january-2014-tyseley.html Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Hi, It is recorded in GWR Board minutes that Churchward requested to end the practice of lining firebox tops. This request was put before the Locomotive Committee of the Board and was aproved. During the extensive research into liveries I was involved with in the early seventies we looked into this matter with the help of several of my relatives who had worked 'inside' at Swindon. Our findings were that the story of GJC witnessing a fall were just that - a story. This is rather confirmed by the fact that painters still had to climb up to paint the GREEN onto the top anyway. The reason for Churchward's request was motivated by cost considerations and the fact that with the ongoing (at the time) introduction of flat topped Belpaire 'boxes the lining would not be visible from most public points of view, so why go to the expense of applying it. I strongly believe our findings are likely to be right. Regards What date was the board approval? drduncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted February 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2015 Surely the top of the firebox must get pretty hot so would discolour rapidly? I can see where you're coming from on this, but that might only be true if the top of the firebox was directly exposed to the heat of the fire. However it's not. The crown of the actual firebox (the bit on the inside with the fire in, not the outside) would be covered in water. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebox_%28steam_engine%29#mediaviewer/File:Firebox_cutaway.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I seem to recollect the late R.C.Ormiston-Chant (known to one and all as "Robbo") saying that that green paint wasn't applied to that part of the top of belpaire fireboxes which couldn't be seen by bystanders, and he had once been a Swindon apprentice (and seemingly a pretty observant one too). I am fairly certain that he wrote it down somewhere, probably 40-plus years ago, but where? There is a certain logic in saying that if the lining stops short so does the green paint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn T Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I can see where you're coming from on this, but that might only be true if the top of the firebox was directly exposed to the heat of the fire. However it's not. The crown of the actual firebox (the bit on the inside with the fire in, not the outside) would be covered in water. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebox_%28steam_engine%29#mediaviewer/File:Firebox_cutaway.jpg Thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I can see where you're coming from on this, but that might only be true if the top of the firebox was directly exposed to the heat of the fire. However it's not. The crown of the actual firebox (the bit on the inside with the fire in, not the outside) would be covered in water.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebox_(steam_engine)#mediaviewer/File:Firebox_cutaway.jpg Hi All, This is quite true - the lagging in the boilers (asbestos back in the day, ceramic fibre today) means that the cladding doesn't get that hot. If you think about it, it would be a whole heap of lost energy and wasted coal if it was free to allow all of the thermal energy to escape to the atmosphere. The one place where there is a discolouration of paint it the big round single skin metal bit at the front - the smokebox. The heat here does tend to take the shine off most gloss paints in time hence both the matt finish seen on a lot of engines and the practice of either an oil / paraffin polish to temporarily put the shine back or regular repaints if you want it to stay shiny! This area does get dirty though - it's in direct line with the chimney as you go forward (!). There is a line of soot that builds up there and it is usually not visible from the platform until it gets really heavy. I hope this helps! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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