GWR 'Wolverhampton' Livery

[MikeOxon]

I have been looking at various early (19th century) GWR locomotives from the Northern (standard gauge) Division.  My references for livery have been 'Great Western Way (1st ed.)' and, for a colour illustration, Nock's 'Great Western in Colour'.

 

I scanned the painting of an Armstrong saddle tank shown on p.71 of Nock's book, with the following result:

 

 

 

Does anyone know any other sources, which may help me to form a judgement of the colours that were used?

 

Mike

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by MikeOxon
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[buffalo]

Mike,

 

I would add RCTS part 1. an often overlooked but extremely useful part of the series and has a colour plate of an Armstrong goods in Wolverhampton livery, and the second edition of GWW. I've not compared the detail differences between the two GWW editions, but the later one includes Wolverhampton green amongst its colour samples. The caption to this sample reads

 

 

A rough match to a plate in RCTS Part I and in Armstrongs of the Great Western of an Armstrong Goods. A model in STEAM Swindon is approx this colour. The mix is Plasti-Kote B53 Blue Lagoon 2 parts; 1 part B7 Night Blue; 1 part Humbrol Green No 3.

 

Pantone 3288C or 3278C is reckoned similar.

 

The colour appears somewhat darker and a little more green than your's.

 

As to the frame colour, yours looks well within the range suggested for Swindon's Indian Red. According to GWW 2nd ed., whilst Wolverhampton used a dark red with vermillion edging from 1854-66, they subsequently used a rich milk chocolate brown with black edging and red lining up to about 1880, then windsor brown with black edges and red ling to 1894. Thereafter, there was a gradual change to Swidon practice until the end in 1902.

 

Nick

Edited November 20, 2014 by buffalo

[MikeOxon]

Thank you,Nick.  As you say, I overlooked RCTS Part 1, with its illustration of an Armstrong Goods!  I agree that there is a lot of useful information in this part - including the early standard-gauge absorptions.

 

I'll also look into the paint 'recipe' for the colour.

 

Very helpful,as usual

 

Mike

Edited November 20, 2014 by MikeOxon

[MikeOxon]

On 20/11/2014 at 09:48, buffalo said:

Pantone 3288C or 3278C is reckoned similar.

 

Following this lead, I found the rather useful website http://rgb.to/ by Carlos Cabo.  This site allow one to enter a 'Pantone' code or keywords to see a swatch of the colour together with tri-colour values in various formats.  I entered 3288C and 3278C and then used the given RGB values in Photoshop, to produce the following image:

 

 

 

After that, i experimented with a few keywords.  Unfortunately, 'Windsor' was not recognised but I got several responses to 'Milk Chocolate' and to 'Indian Red', from which I chose the following 'Pantone' representations:

 

 

 

Finally, I 'Photoshopped' the colours onto a photograph of GWR No.517, built at Wolverhampton in 1868:

 

 

(based on 'Pantone' 3288C and 7582C)

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by MikeOxon
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[buffalo]

Hi Mike,

 

The 3288C certainly looks closer to the GWW sample. The text is not very helpful with Windsor brown, suggesting it is only slight shade change (presumably darker) from the milk chocolate and both might have a slightly purple tinge. Their sample for Windsor brown certainly has a slightly reddish appearance. It is based on Precision P3, which I couldn't find on the Precision Paints web site. They also note that Precision P6 (Indian Red) "looks more like the early Windsor brown with a slightly purple tinge." Just to add to the confusion, the Swindon version of Windsor brown used up to about 1880 may or may not be the same as the Wolverhampton version...

 

Nick

[Jeff Smith]

Mike,

 

It might be just my computer monitor but I cannot imagine that the colours in your picture above could be anything near to the originals.  Choice of paint pigments was very limited then.  I am no expert on the history of paints for large area coverage but colour tended to be pretty dull and mineral based and not at all vibrant.  Artists had very limited quantities of vibrant pigments which were ground by hand.  Wolverhampton green was reportedly darker than Swindon green, and that was pretty dark compared to the later post 1928 green.  I stand to be corrected but think that green unlikely.

[buffalo]

Jeff,

Whilst I'd agree that the blue-green on Mike's photoshopped photo does look too vivid, where did the idea that "Wolverhampton green was reportedly darker than Swindon green" come from? See the sources I've referred to.

 

Nick

[MikeOxon]

.... I am no expert on the history of paints for large area coverage but colour tended to be pretty dull and mineral based and not at all vibrant. 

 

I am no pigments expert either, but the reading that I have done suggests that, far from being dull, the Victorians were rather addicted to bright colours!  The chemical industry was busy developing the aniline dyes and other synthetic pigments, during the first half of the 19th century, and these appear to have been adopted enthusiastically by fashionable Victorians.

 

Of course, permanence is a highly desirable feature for external paints and this certainly restricted what could be used.  Lead-based pigments darkened with age, especially in the sulphurous atmosphere surrounding a coal burning locomotive!  This may influence our historical perspective, when looking back at well-darkened survivals.  

 

One well-known vivid example is, perhaps, Stroudley's 'Improved Engine Green', which was effectively bright yellow!  Another natural pigment is known as 'Victorian Green' (calcium chromium silicate), which was especially noted for its permanence.  Much later, it was re-discovered for railway use by Bulleid, when it was called Malachite Green. (some critics suggested that the 'c' should be soft)

 

My painting of No.517 was based on an early photograph and it should be remembered that taking photographs in the 19th-century required bright sunlight.  In duller light, the colours would look much darker.

 

It's all open to debate, of course, but my own preference is for strong colours.

 

Mike

Edited November 20, 2014 by MikeOxon

[Jeff Smith]

Jeff,

Whilst I'd agree that the blue-green on Mike's photoshopped photo does look too vivid, where did the idea that "Wolverhampton green was reportedly darker than Swindon green" come from? See the sources I've referred to.

 

Nick

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieslococolour.html

 

I am no pigments expert either, but the reading that I have done suggests that, far from being dull, the Victorians were rather addicted to bright colours!  The chemical industry was busy developing the anilline dyes and other synthetic pigments, during the first half of the 19th century, and these appear to have been adopted enthusiastically by fashionable Victorians.

 

Of course, permanence is a highly desirable feature for external paints and this certainly restricted what could be used.  Lead-based pigments darkened with age, especially in the sulphurous atmosphere surrounding a coal burning locomotive!  This may influence our historical perspective, when looking back at well-darkened survivals.  

 

One well-known vivid example is, perhaps, Stroudley's 'Improved Engine Green', which was effectively bright yellow!  Another natural pigment is known as 'Victorian Green' (calcium chromium silicate), which was especially noted for its permanence.  Much later, it was re-discovered for railway use by Bulleid, when it was called Malachite Green. (some critics suggested that the 'c' should be soft)

 

My painting of No.517 was based on an early photograph and it should be remembered that taking photographs in the 19th-century required bright sunlight.  In duller light, the colours would look much darker.

 

It's all open to debate, of course, but my own preference is for strong colours.

 

Mike

The early US 4-4-0 locos were also reported to be painted rather garishly. 

 

The danger here is actually relying on computer monitors and colour prints which can be very variable and not necessarily faithful.  There is also the question of 'scale' colour by which a full sized loco viewed at a distance would appear more dull than when seen close up - our models tend to be viewed 'at a distance'.  I read a very interesting article many years ago which reported on peoples' ability to remember colour shades.  People were all shown a colour panel, then it was removed and a series of similar colour panels presented (can't remember if it was all at once or one after the other) very few people actually remembered the correct shade.

[Jeff Smith]

Here is a quote from the web link above:-

 

The Locomotive Volume 1, No. 3, March 1896 states: "The engines of the Great Western Railway are painted chrome green, the shades varying with the works at which the engine was constructed. Express and passenger engines built at Swindon are painted a lighter green than the goods and tank engines turned out of the same shops while engines from Wolverhampton assume quite a blue green. The striping of the engines also differ, Swindon engines having a black band of medium width a very fine yellow line on either side, but Wolverhampton engines a fine white line in place of the yellow. The framing and splashers of all engines are a dark red brown, edged round with, a narrow black border with a fine yellow line inside it. The domes and safety valve casings are bright brass, as also is the chimney top; this latter on Swindon-built engines in of a bell-top pattern whereas Wolverhampton engines have a moulded top. The buffer beams are vermillion edged round black and fine yellow line. The interior of the cabs is painted vermillion to about the height of the splashers, then green above, edged round with black and fine yellow line. Altogether the G.W. Railway engines are handsomely painted, and being kept very clean always boast of an imposing appearance. The splashers of the 3001 class of single bogie express engines are further decorated with the arms of the G.W. Railway surrounded by a garter cast in relief and maintained in true Heraldic fashion, and on either side of this the crests of London and Bristol respectively, also in relief. On other express engines the coat of arms is "transferred" on the driving splasher. Number plates are of brass, raised figures, with a background of black with fine yellow line round the inside."

[MikeOxon]

On 20/11/2014 at 18:57, Jeff Smith said:

 

......................There is also the question of 'scale' colour by which a full sized loco viewed at a distance would appear more dull than when seen close up - our models tend to be viewed 'at a distance'. 

Indeed.  The 'context' in which a colour is seen has a profound effect on our perception.

 

(check with a colour editor, if you don' believe it)

 

After seeing this illustration, anyone should hesitate before arguing whether a model colour is 'correct'

 

Mike

Edited October 18, 2023 by MikeOxon
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[MikeOxon]

 "The engines of the Great Western Railway are painted chrome green, the shades varying with the works at which the engine was constructed. Express and passenger engines built at Swindon are painted a lighter green than the goods and tank engines turned out of the same shops while engines from Wolverhampton assume quite a blue green.

I've not read a suggestion that express and goods engines were different shades before.  Since paints were mixed 'on the spot' then some variation is very likely.  In addition, express engines probably received more attention from cleaners. 

 

This text does not, however, compare the 'brightness' of Swindon and Wolverhampton engines.

 

Mike

[Mikkel]

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieslococolour.html

 

 

I think I should chip in with a word of warning here:

 

Some of the livery notes on gwr.org.uk go right back to when I first set up the site some 14-15 years ago. The original notes were not based on any particular knowledge or insight, other than what I read it in the standard works. Since then more knowledgeable people have chipped in with additions, including Russ who now runs the site. However there are still remains of my initial notes, and these should be taken with a grain of salt as they were never "quality assured". For example I cannot find any reference in Slinn's GW Way that would jusitfy my use of the word "dark" bluish shade. It may have been a subjective interpretation that crept in to my wording.

 

This is not intended to discount the livery info on gwr.org.uk - as I said Russ has raised the bar since then, but it's worth keeping in mind that the original intent with those notes was only to provide overall info for new GWR modellers, and so I am always a little uncomfortable when my old notes are used in advanced discussion such as this.

[MikeOxon]

............ in advanced discussion such as this.

It might be an 'advanced' discussion but, without a time machine, who knows

 

Mike

[Jeff Smith]

I've not read a suggestion that express and goods engines were different shades before.  Since paints were mixed 'on the spot' then some variation is very likely.  In addition, express engines probably received more attention from cleaners. 

 

This text does not, however, compare the 'brightness' of Swindon and Wolverhampton engines.

 

Mike

Point taken about brightness - I have wrestled with similar uncertainty about Metropolitan red/maroon and this is much more recent. Unfortunately even original surviving paint chips have aged.

[buffalo]

...The danger here is actually relying on computer monitors and colour prints which can be very variable and not necessarily faithful....

 

Of course, but equally we should not assume they are wrong without good reason. It's all very well rehashing all the well known and often repeated arguements about the accuracy of representation and colour perception, but in the case of the Wolverhampton blue/green we have, as far as I know, no other evidence. For what little it is worth, my perception of the colour sample (very close to Pantone 3288C) in GWW is a good match for their photo of the STEAM model, though the coloured photo in RCTS Part 1 looks more green. In terms of the potential errors here that's far from definitive, but it is all we can do without more evidence.

 

On the question of different greens for goods and express pasenger classes at Swindon raised by the well-known quote from The Locomotive, does anyone know of any other source making this claim? Perhaps Simon's point about lining might apply to the saddle tanks with a large expanse of unlined green on their tanks, but it wouldn't apply to, for example, the Dean Goods which were lined. I suspect that any apparent difference was more likely due to two factors. Firstly the number of coats of paint, the extent of rubbing down and stopping between coats and the number of laers of varnish applied. Secondly, express passenger classes would typically have had much larger areas of brown or indian red on their frames and their larger splashers than any smaller wheeled goods engines which would surely affect how the green parts were perceived.

 

Nick

Edited November 21, 2014 by buffalo

[Miss Prism]

(This message being the simplest way of bookmarking this thread.)

 

[DonB]

I have no intention of entering into this topic to comment on modellers choice of colour, there are other topics in RMweb on the subject. 

 

My mother worked at Manders Paints in Wolverhampton before she married in 1931. 

It being an important employer in the area, it is highly likely that Manders supplied the Wolverhampton GWR works with their paints.

There could be historical data about the paint works in local museums, or in the British Library at Kew... Has anyone published any research ??  

Edited July 23, 2019 by DonB
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[Compound2632]

Prompted to read through this again, along with the related topic:

 

 

... I come away with a reasonable idea of the range within which one could reasonably represent the Wolverhampton livery. The points Nick made about surface preparation, number of coats of paint and varnish, and proportion of green bodywork to red frames seem especially wise.

 

I then have to ask, to what was it applied? I read that new locomotive building finished at Wolverhampton in 1908 but the local livery ceased to be applied some years earlier - as late as George Armstrong's retirement in 1897? The last engines of his design built at Wolverhampton were, I think, members of the 1901 Class in 1895.

 

The last engine to be turned out in Wolverhampton green would, I suppose, still be sporting it some 5-7 years later. I also presume that while the livery was in use, it would be applied not only to newly-built engines but also to ones repainted after heavy overhaul; also, I presume this would include some Swindon-built locomotives allocated to the northern division.

 

What all this leads to is whether a 1901 Class 0-6-0ST on the Walsall goods (running powers over the Midland from Wolverhampton) could plausibly be in well-worn Wolverhampton livery in 1902?

[Miss Prism]

Great Western Way concludes of the Wolverhampton livery: "This style of painting lasted officially until 1894 but locomotives continued to be turned out in this final Wolverhampton style until 1902."

 

Lee Marsh's customers seem to think the livery is pretty enough to spend lots of money on.  (But note GWW says "saddle tanks were unlined".)

 

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

(But note GWW says "saddle tanks were unlined".)

 

[Annie]

53 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Lee Marsh's customers seem to think the livery is pretty enough to spend lots of money on.  (But note GWW says "saddle tanks were unlined".)

That was something that I wondered about as well.

[MikeOxon]

I re-visited the photo of the mode at STEAM museum and used Photoshop to remove the overall colour-cast.  Note that the chimney and smoke-box look quite blue in the original, so I restored these to 'neutral'.

 

The result demonstrates the effects of ambient lighting or camera colour-balance on a photo:

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by MikeOxon
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[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

I re-visited the photo of the mode at STEAM museum and used Photoshop to remove the overall colour-cast.  Note that the chimney and smoke-box look quite blue in the original, so I restored these to 'neutral'.

 

The result demonstrates the effects of ambient lighting or camera colour-balance on a photo:

 

The modified version looks closer to the photo of the Lee Marsh model... (FWIW!)

 

Clearly visits to STEAM are in order. I suppose the model is displayed indoors under artificial lighting. I wonder if the museum staff could be persuaded to take the model outside several times, under different lighting conditions...

 

Of course we'd have to form a deputation for such viewings, as our individual colour perception will vary. I wonder if we can find a Dane locally, one calibrated for colour perception under Baltic skies...

 

There have been numerous arguments in this household over whether certain game counters or tokens are blue or green!

Edited March 3, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I wonder if we can find a Dane locally, one calibrated for colour perception under Baltic skies...

 

Sorry, yes, and a Kiwi...