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cornamuse

random pre-grouping questions

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Very interesting thread indeed - great modelling!

 

Some way back, you mentioned lime wagons.

 

Pit to kiln, classically little horse-drawn narrow gauge side or end tippers. These were wooden, of course, with inside frames and bearings. Most of the ones I've seen are of the general form known as "Manchester Ship Canal" wagons (although the type pre-dates that, they were widely used during its construction). If you can get hold of it, there is an excellent set of drawings in a booklet about the Betchworth lime quarries railways, published c30 years. I built both the side and end door wagons to 15mm/ft scale, wood, with working hinges in brass and nickel. Can't lay hands on my copy, but I think it is called "Townsend Hook and the Dorking Greystone Lime Company".

 

Other source is the Industrial Railway Society website, which has many copies of their journal, digitised. Look at early editions. Biggest risk for you, I think, is that even "old" stuff will be too new ......... So also try "Early Wooden Railways", by M J T Lewis, and look at what he classes as "late" (all relative,since his account starts with the Seven Dwarves in the Black Forest in c1450!

 

From kiln to consumer, I think would be: wooden barrels (quicklime); or, bulk loaded in open-wagons (slaked lime). But double-check on that.

 

Anyway, brilliant!

 

Kevin

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I think Kirtleypete's Saltdean is ballasted with local shingle http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98308-saltdean-lbscr-in-0-gauge/page-2&do=findComment&comment=1887780. The specification for the Rother Valley Railway, later Kent & East Sussex, just up the road from where Saltdean would have been, in 1900ish was sandstone with a covering of shingle. So locally available materials were often used.

 

This is how Chris Nevard has done ash in sidings http://nevardmedia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/creating-effect-of-ash-ballast.html

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Now the problem with my chosen company is that it is fictitious. However.. the aim is to portray a line typical of the North East in the first 50 years, give or take.

 

Richmond would be a good match, thank you. And the loco is a beauty!

 

Nearholmer - do you know if any special precautions other than roofing in the cells were taken with lime cells? I have heard that the lime may have been on a raised wooden floor, or that there may have been wooden screens on the front... pictures anyone?

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From kiln to consumer, I think would be: wooden barrels (quicklime); or, bulk loaded in open-wagons (slaked lime). But double-check on that.

 

Some companies had lime wagons.  CR ones were basically open wagons with a pitched roof on top to keep the lime dry.

 

Jim

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The advantage of good deep ballast will help to hide the non-period trackwork.

 

the next scene will use period stuff, I hope - lighter rail, maybe, much sharper points with different geometry, and at least one siding with stone sleepers. Mind you, to do this I will have to learn a heap of new skills and do some serious research, all good fun ...

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Would cobbles work? It's set in the early days of railways when different things were being tried, and being a small yard may have been a practical surface. You could make them up off the layout, and fix them down in a way you could remove them if it doesn't work, so it doesn't have to be as messy and final as ballast.

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I have thought a lot about ash ballast, as the pre-grouping over the sleeper look is something I will have to try (in 4mm). For other lines it may be a case of granite dressed with ash and ash in the sidings.  The NER seems to have been mainly ash.  Someone better qualified will no doubt come to the rescue here.

 

 

The NER used coke breeze. These were the fines screened out before coke was fed to blast furnaces. One reference give the size as less than 12mm.

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Cornmuse

 

When you say "lime cells", do you mean storage places (yes, roofed), or the wagons for bulk-carriage of lime?

 

In the South, I believe that bulk lime was carried in high-ended open wagons, with sheet bars/rails/chains, tightly sheeted-over. In fact, the same wagons that wee used for a great deal else.

 

Kevin

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The storage places ... the roofed bit of this coal / lime drop ... would the lime be raised off the floor and would there be wooden boards at the front?

post-11344-0-70908700-1441318004.jpg

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The storage places ... the roofed bit of this coal / lime drop ... would the lime be raised off the floor and would there be wooden boards at the front?

Being a southerner, I know nothing of these strange northern practices, but would the drops be boarded in like these at t' Mill? Or was this some newfangled idea developed after your period? Presumably the coal or lime would have been dropped into a road vehicle or bags, rather than onto the ground.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/90024-the-mill/page-20&do=findComment&comment=1952453

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My Granddad told me that when they collected lime from Kettleness station (probably 1930s) they wouldn't empty the wagon (I'm assuming a 12t hopper) until there was someone there to take it away as if it got wet it would make a right mess.

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Cornamuse

 

Like BGJ, I'm a southerner, and have only just "got" what you mean.

 

I hadn't envisaged dropping lime out of the bottom of a wagon, into a cell. Did they do that on the S&D?

 

I had a picture in my mind of a gang of men shovelling it out of a wagon, into either a rough shed/shelter, or direct into carts.

 

BTW, have you considered a visit to the Chalk Pits Museum at Amberley, in Sussex? You can see kilns, wagons etc there.

 

Long way from Darlington, though, so if you take your son with you "are we nearly there yet?" might kick-in when you are still some six hours from your destination!

 

Kevin

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Are we there yet would kick in with me first :)

 

I assume it was dropped out of the bottom, there are plenty of examples of such cells, including some on the same site as North Road Station - which the model is based on.

 

another issue is that I don't know the style of wagons used - I would assume a similar vehicle to the chaldron waggons.

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Really nice picture in here, at page 11 http://www.sihg.org.uk/books/SurreyIndPast2.pdf

 

It is about 35 years too late for you, but the wagons in it are quite old ones, maybe dating to the 1870s, and the ones that came before them weren't hugely different.

 

But,this is "southern" practice; whether it applied in the NE I have no idea.

 

Kevin

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Regarding lime cells, the only "in-use" picture I have so far found is Goatland as preserved (see picture - included here for the benefit of Southerners (I am a Midlander whose Northern immigration status is pending, in case anyone wonders)).  Both the Goatland and the Darlington North Road lime cells are listed.  I note from the descriptions that the lime is dropped via a hatch in the structure itself.  It is suggested that the Darlington North Road cells had ceased to be used for this purpose by the end of the Nineteenth Century. 

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As for lime wagons, if an open was used, I imagine it would need to be sheeted.  I do not know when the traditional roofed lime wagon design first came into use.  So far, I have not found examples earlier than the 1880s.  The Whitecliff example was a second hand Gloucester Wagon Co 5-plank, converted in 1886.  The Crayshaw was built 1880.  Of course, you would need ones with doors in the floor.

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Edited by Edwardian
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Andy, how is the ballasting going?

 

Mr Bedford kindly mentioned that the NER used coke breeze. Judging from the photographs on the interweb, coke breeze varies in appearance and grade.  The picture with the ruler is said to be of 10-30mm grade.  Mr Bedford mentioned that the NER used less than 12mm.

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I have just seen some very old photos of the Bodmin and Wadebridge railway with mineral drops used for Coal, Lime and Sand. I know the NER and Maryport and Carlisle extensively used hopper wagon to discharge loads into cells but were these 3 companies the only ones to use this system?

 

Marc 

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Has anyone on here got access to all the papers from the various "early railways" conferences, because I have a feeling that they may directly or indirectly answer these "bottom discharge wagons" questions?

 

I've got the bound volume for the conference that discussed "Steam Elephant" in depth, but none of the others, and I can't seem to find the papers via "Google Scholar".

 

K

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Has anyone on here got access to all the papers from the various "early railways" conferences, because I have a feeling that they may directly or indirectly answer these "bottom discharge wagons" questions?

 

I've got the bound volume for the conference that discussed "Steam Elephant" in depth, but none of the others, and I can't seem to find the papers via "Google Scholar".

 

K

 

Would these be in the National Archive at Kew?  The index is online but you have to go and photograph the originals.

Edited by ChrisN

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I have just seen some very old photos of the Bodmin and Wadebridge railway with mineral drops used for Coal, Lime and Sand. I know the NER and Maryport and Carlisle extensively used hopper wagon to discharge loads into cells but were these 3 companies the only ones to use this system?

 

Marc 

 

I have photos of mineral (coal) drop arrangements on both the Midland and the Great Eastern.  I don't believe that either of these used hopper wagons, almost certainly using conventional mineral wagons with bottom doors in the floor.

 

HTH

Flymo

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I'm presuming that the coal drops used by the Midland and the GER were in urban coal depots not your isolated country sidings? I have been told that the Furness used Coal drops at Crooklands near Dalton-in-Furness but I have not heard of any others on the Furness system apart from those in the various Iron and steel plants.

 

Marc  

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I can't resist linking to this photo http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_2784

 

I've got heavily "into" the Midland and GNR coal operations in London lately, and have looked into these depots. Probably already well-known by Midland enthusiasts, but a real eye-opener to me.

 

Presumably the wagons used must have been "bottom door", but it hadn't occurred to me that they had internal timbering to make them hoppers; did they? I know of some PO coal wagons that did.

 

Kevin

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