Class 800 - Updates

[david.hill64]

2 hours ago, Titan said:

 

Lucky you!  There are directives about minimum OLE wire height in platform areas areas. As we have higher platforms and lower trains than the rest of Europe, as soon as this became law most electrified stations became illegal.  As it is effectively law and not a standard, you can't get a derogation.

Not quite: you can get a derogation as has happened on Crossrail permitting the temporary installation of Siemens' CBTC system pending availability of ETCS level 3. Derogations can only be given by the EC.

 

The sensible way forward is to look for the crocodiles when the TSI is being drafted: hence the TSI that covers gauging says that national notified technical rules apply in the UK. DfT should have seen this coming for electrification and got the same amendment in the TSI that covers electrification. There would have been a sound case.

[Mallard60022]

Ref the foam down the pants/up the shirt effort, one of those blow up neck 'support' things that people use on Planes is a better solution for the arse area. Could be a problem if you are a lardarse as the thing might do a whoopy cushion performance or even burst when you use it, otherwise you can adjust the amount of support you require. As for the spine support I am working on that one. I have approached LNER to see if I can use their Azuma services, a bit  like those folk on the Indian Railways that sell goodies to passengers, to sell said cushions at a small profit to cover costs. I await their 'Management' to call at Duck Towers.

Entre Pannoor

[Mallard60022]

http://www.easylifegroup.com/product/cosy-lumbar-seat-cushion/68960?sourcecode=PPCNBRNW&msclkid=0ac88eaf2410100dbafcd3ea58697333&utm

[Titan]

3 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

Not quite: you can get a derogation as has happened on Crossrail permitting the temporary installation of Siemens' CBTC system pending availability of ETCS level 3. Derogations can only be given by the EC.

 

 

You can't get a derogation for something that is against the law. If they got a derogation it means that the ETCS level 3 was just a directive, unlike the OLE directives which have been made statutory and put in to law, and therefore illegal not to comply.  You would have just as much chance trying to get a derogation to travel at 80mph on a motorway instead of 70mph, as you would against the OLE statutory requirements. You can't because it is the law.

[david.hill64]

1 minute ago, Titan said:

 

You can't get a derogation for something that is against the law. If they got a derogation it means that the ETCS level 3 was just a directive, unlike the OLE directives which have been made statutory and put in to law, and therefore illegal not to comply.  You would have just as much chance trying to get a derogation to travel at 80mph on a motorway instead of 70mph, as you would against the OLE statutory requirements. You can't because it is the law.

There is a derogation allowing CBTC to be fitted instead of ETCS level 3 in Crossrail. The Stationmaster was good enough to post the link in the Crossrail update thread. I am on my mobile phone now otherwise I would link to it. 

 

The Crossrail derogation allows a temporary non-compliance with the signalling TSI on the grounds that the technology (ETCS Level 3) needed to support the identified operational requirement is not yet available. 

 

So derogations can, and are, permitted. But as the Certification Director in the NOBO I work for has said applying for one requires a lot of time and effort. There is a mechanism to try. 

 

In in the case of electrification, I strongly suspect that there isn’t the will in ORR or DfT to try. (In the case of ORR due to linkage to Electricity at Work regulations and DfT as it goes against the ‘Bi-Modes are the answer’ mentality. 

[david.hill64]

37 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

You can't get a derogation for something that is against the law. If they got a derogation it means that the ETCS level 3 was just a directive, unlike the OLE directives which have been made statutory and put in to law, and therefore illegal not to comply.  You would have just as much chance trying to get a derogation to travel at 80mph on a motorway instead of 70mph, as you would against the OLE statutory requirements. You can't because it is the law.

OK, home now after a nice tapas dinner....

 

Here is the link that the Stationmaster found:

 

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/modes/rail/interoperability/interoperability/doc/c_2012_73_derogation_uk_ccs_tsi.pdf

 

This derogation allows the implementation of a non-TSI compliant signalling system against an implemented standard.

 

The CCS TSI is implemented. This derogation was given some time ago, largely I suspect because the specifications for the technology that supports the most advanced level of the signalling (CCS) TSI had not been finalised when the derogation was given. The result is that a metro signalling system (Siemens' Trainguard CBTC) has been permitted to be used as a temporary measure pending availability of the compliant technology. In essence the signalling TSI allows three technical solutions: ETCS level 1 is an ATP overlay on existing signalling (think something similar to the Great Western mainline system). ETCS level 2 is what Cambrian and Thameslink has and what Network Rail is in process of rolling out. ETCS Level 3 is the gold standard system that does away with much of the wayside equipment and allows moving block technology.

 

ETCS level 3 is not in itself mandated. Any of the solutions - including probably the ETCS level 2/3 hybrid -  will be compliant with the TSI.

[Titan]

I am well aware of that, but you do not seem to be understanding the very simple premise I am putting below:

 

There has been made a statutory requirement, i.e. it has been made law, to comply with the European directives on OLE.

 

Signalling appears to be different.

 

I am really not sure how I can put that in an easier way for you to understand.

[Mallard60022]

41 minutes ago, Titan said:

I am well aware of that, but you do not seem to be understanding the very simple premise I am putting below:

 

There has been made a statutory requirement, i.e. it has been made law, to comply with the European directives on OLE.

 

Signalling appears to be different.

 

I am really not sure how I can put that in an easier way for you to understand.

Ouch!

P

[david.hill64]

3 hours ago, Titan said:

I am well aware of that, but you do not seem to be understanding the very simple premise I am putting below:

 

There has been made a statutory requirement, i.e. it has been made law, to comply with the European directives on OLE.

 

Signalling appears to be different.

 

I am really not sure how I can put that in an easier way for you to understand.

And the same instrument applies to all TSI's. There is, as I said and you appear to understand, a legal requirement to comply with TSI's. But there is a mechanism, called a derogation, that allows non-compliance. It's not at all difficult to understand and applies to all TSI's. There is a list of derogations that the UK has applied for on the GOV.UK website. (These are old as generally derogations are unlikely to be permitted.) There is also a list of exclusions as not all of Network Rail infrastructure is subject to the directive.

 

Moreover your statement that existing electrical installations have become illegal is also wrong. In the words of the EC:

 

'Directive 2008/57/EC states in its article 5 (2) relative to the content of TSIs that “subsystems shall comply with the TSIs in force at the time of their placing in service, upgrading or renewal, in accordance with this Directive”'

 

I did some NOBO refresher training 2 weeks ago and the topic of derogations was raised, so please understand that I do have some knowledge in this area.

[TravisM]

Now that LNER have introduced their 800/1’s on the full Edinburgh - KX portion of the ECML, am I to assume that it’s overhead from London to Newcastle and then on diesel power to Edinburgh?  I only ask as I was talking to a Newcastle driver a little while ago and he told me that the York - Newcastle section of OHLE had only just been signed off for Azuma’s.

Edited August 3, 2019 by jools1959

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, Titan said:

I am well aware of that, but you do not seem to be understanding the very simple premise I am putting below:

 

There has been made a statutory requirement, i.e. it has been made law, to comply with the European directives on OLE.

 

 

Only with new or altered works!

 

Anything installed prior to the new statutory requirements coming into force can stay as it is unless it gets modified (like for like renewal of components does not generally count as an alteration to the installation.

 

In any case it is actually perfectly legally the UK government to scrap said ‘statutory requirement’ and replace it with a new one (allowing more wiggle room yet still ‘complying’ with the EU directive as the French etc have been doing for decades).

 

Of course if the current Government actually goes through with a no deal Brexit then there will be zero requirement to comply with any EU directives at all (and nobody else to try and pin the blame on for Whitehall screw ups)

[corneliuslundie]

Back on train fires, I was involved in a (the?) "wrong kind of snow" fire on a Thameslink unit. As far as I know the only casualty was the skirt of another passenger when she was helped onto the HST which stopped to pick up the passengers - I know because i helped her onto the train and she complained to me afterwards!

Which is a wonder as the four of us who travelled together and knew a little about railways had  great difficulty in stopping people walking on the fast lines after they had decided to de-trian, the driver having gone AWOL.

Jonathan

[Ken.W]

17 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Now that LNER have introduced their 800/1’s on the full Edinburgh - KX portion of the ECML, am I to assume that it’s overhead from London to Newcastle and then on diesel power to Edinburgh?  I only ask as I was talking to a Newcastle driver a little while ago and he told me that the York - Newcastle section of OHLE had only just been signed off for Azuma’s.

 

No, they're on electric  throughout.

Although I've been on holiday, I understand from a colleague that the last remaining restriction, Newcastle to Berwick, was lifted last month.

York - Darlington had been lifted by May, the Darlington - Newcastle more recently.

They were never restricted north of the Border.

[Banger Blue]

On 02/08/2019 at 12:16, The Stationmaster said:

it's not necessarily easy to work into and out of the sidings across the Up Relief although it does happen of course (although I wonder if XC Drivers know the sidings?).

 

If you mean the TCD, no they don’t.

[40052]

Ken,

Are all sets cleared now as I'd heard that there were still some interference issues with the 5 car sets and the pure electric version of the 9 car?

[Mallard60022]

On ‎02‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 14:16, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

What about the Class 180 Adelantes Mike?

They are reputed to bust into flames if you so much as give them a filthy look. 

 

 

.

Not unlike some contributors to RMW (none of the present company I hasten to add...…….)

[Ken.W]

16 hours ago, 40052 said:

Ken,

Are all sets cleared now as I'd heard that there were still some interference issues with the 5 car sets and the pure electric version of the 9 car?

 

Have been on holiday so haven't seen the latest notices yet, however AFAIK, none of the 5 cars or 801s (electric) sets are in service yet

[Mallard60022]

Serious question for a change. Has anyone done a survey of the seats that do not have a window view (not including the door recess ones that we all know about I am sure)? If not, is there any LNER person on here or someone with legal access, that could do such a survey? I know it sounds rude to ask, however it would be very helpful to us new users.

Thanks

Philth

[royaloak]

22 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Back on train fires, I was involved in a (the?) "wrong kind of snow" fire on a Thameslink unit. As far as I know the only casualty was the skirt of another passenger when she was helped onto the HST which stopped to pick up the passengers - I know because i helped her onto the train and she complained to me afterwards!

Which is a wonder as the four of us who travelled together and knew a little about railways had  great difficulty in stopping people walking on the fast lines after they had decided to de-trian, the driver having gone AWOL.

Jonathan

Possibly gone to carry out rule book requirements. it is the drivers responsibility to protect the train!

[4630]

After spending the weekend at Doncaster IEP Depot, on 5th August 2019 TPE 802202 heads back to Edge Hill Intercity Depot for further staff training, approaching Colne Bridge Huddersfield with 5F48, 09.53 Doncaster IEP to York, then 5F48, 11.09 York to Edge Hill Intercity Depot.

 

 

[40052]

2 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

Have been on holiday so haven't seen the latest notices yet, however AFAIK, none of the 5 cars or 801s (electric) sets are in service yet

 

Thanks Ken, hope you enjoyed your holiday

[Jack Mc]

Class 800104's (currently) southern-facing Driving Car, with recently applied 'LNER Tartan' vinyls. Seen at Doncaster on 5/8/19.

 

800110 and 43367 side-by-side, allowing a comparison of the front end of the new trains, and the trains that they are replacing.

 

Jack

[andy stroud]

1 hour ago, Jack Mc said:

Class 800104's (currently) southern-facing Driving Car, with recently applied 'LNER Tartan' vinyls. Seen at Doncaster on 5/8/19.

 

800110 and 43367 side-by-side, allowing a comparison of the front end of the new trains, and the trains that they are replacing.

 

Jack

 

Just out of interest, does anyone know what the front of these new trains is. Is it a fiberglass moulding like the HSTs ?

[Ken.W]

On 04/08/2019 at 21:28, 40052 said:

Ken,

Are all sets cleared now as I'd heard that there were still some interference issues with the 5 car sets and the pure electric version of the 9 car?

 

On 05/08/2019 at 13:40, Ken.W said:

 

Have been on holiday so haven't seen the latest notices yet, however AFAIK, none of the 5 cars or 801s (electric) sets are in service yet

 

Well, back in off holiday yesterday, so now have the latest notices;

The Operating Restrictions notice applies to simply "Class 800/801/802", so are the same for all sets.

Have also seen first LNER liveried 5-car sets, some in Tyne Yd Standage sidings so probably not in service, but have seen 5+5 sets running, though don't know if these were test / training runs or if any are in service yet.

 

On 04/08/2019 at 16:52, Ken.W said:

 

No, they're on electric  throughout.

Although I've been on holiday, I understand from a colleague that the last remaining restriction, Newcastle to Berwick, was lifted last month.

York - Darlington had been lifted by May, the Darlington - Newcastle more recently.

They were never restricted north of the Border.

 

Had already been cleared to run in electric mode to Darlington in notice dated 07/06

Were cleared to run to Newcastle in electric in notice dated 28/06

No restriction in electric mode in notice dated 25/07

 

Also, prohibitions from Newcastle Pl.5-8 and Waverley Pl.12 now removed

[TravisM]

Has 800101 been released back into service as I’ve not seen it since it was in Virgin East Coast vinyls.  I’ve seen all the other 800/1’s either on test or in service in full LNER livery but 101 seems to have disappeared