Class 800 - Updates

[jamie92208]

Mention of Orcats raids was made earlier.  I belive that licences for open access services have to comply with something called moderation of competition  rules. IIRC these are a garuntee to the franchisee that only acertain percentage of revenue will be given to open access operators. Also I believe that extra stops by open access operators  can be refused if it looks as if their only purpose is to grab revenue.  I think that Virgin were excellent at keeping open access off the WCML by arguing their case very well.

[Gwiwer]

7 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Virgin were excellent at keeping open access off the WCML

 

And in the process almost sank the Wrexham & Shropshire operation.  Honestly how much of Virgin's revenue (already shared through ORCATS with several other operators) would a stop at Wolverhampton and Birmingham have taken?  But their lawyers argued the case and those trains were obliged to run lightly loaded and not stopping at the very places they hoped to serve.  

[159220]

11 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I had no idea East Coast Trains was a thing!

 

Are they the same body etc as 800-802?

 

I'm surprised they aren't calling at York, although they have GC and LNER southbound and TPE and LNER northbound.

 

Have NR got the problems sorted on the ECML above Newcastle with the 800-802s yet? Throwing 803s into the mix can't be helpful!

 

Not it's brand name, to be announced shortly! The ORR application never was based on stopping at York (this would only lengthen journey times and this service is genuinely about end point to end point speed). The idea/motivation behind First Group east coast is to tap into the London-Edinburgh and London-Newcastle air market by having the quickest London-Edinburgh journey times and a ticketing system based more on the airline format than train. If you see the rail vs air market for these destinations from VTEC/LNER you'll see there is certainly an untapped market and this rail service, might, through good marketing tap into bringing non-rail users onto the trains. 

 

The class 803 shall be 26 m and loosely based on the class 801. But without a MTU powerpack. Instead it shall increase battery capacity to provide hotel and 'next station' drive power incase of an OHL failure. There is some speculation that the nose shall be a revised shape (as per any future AT300). But not from what I have seen. I am though very impressed with how well First Group & Beacon Rail have made improvements on the rigid Hitachi culture...someone has guessed right above! 

 

The power supply problems north of Newcastle are planned to progressively be corrected during 2020 and are due to be ready to allow a full ECML timetable from Dec. 2021. The May launch for FGEC (no-doubt now slightly delayed due to the current situation) would be one diagram a day which can fit in with the power constraints. We should, by the logical maths that the first unit has been at sea for around 6 weeks, its delivery imminently. 

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

Whether HS2 is particularly helpful to York and above I don't know.

Newcastle to London will be 30 minutes faster once phase 2b is in service. Presumably York will be similar. Edinburgh will served be via the WCML, which I assume will be quicker than the ECML.

[TomScrut]

11 minutes ago, 159220 said:

There is some speculation that the nose shall be a revised shape (as per any future AT300). But not from what I have seen.

 

I was just wondering w.r.t. Hornby's tooling!

[159220]

4 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I was just wondering w.r.t. Hornby's tooling!

Aye! Seeing as the roof appears to be a slide, and thus the 802 is possible. It does appear the nose is also a separate tool or slide and thus, if different they could tool it up. Perhaps this is why we have not got the 802 this year..as they have been waiting to see how further AT300s come before making further investment decisions... never know...DCC CDL and Panto servo could yet happen  I am becoming increasingly disapointed that even Hornby's new tool models are looking 'out of date' in the face of their competition (and even their former models - eg. their HST...they tooled nearly every variation possible on that!). 

Edited April 12, 2020 by 159220

[caradoc]

32 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 

And in the process almost sank the Wrexham & Shropshire operation.  Honestly how much of Virgin's revenue (already shared through ORCATS with several other operators) would a stop at Wolverhampton and Birmingham have taken?  But their lawyers argued the case and those trains were obliged to run lightly loaded and not stopping at the very places they hoped to serve.  

 

Fair point, but on the other hand I can understand the franchised operator, providing a service at regular and frequent intervals throughout the day, not being happy at Open Access operators cherry-picking their traffic (and as you say from Birmingham Virgin were already competing with two other franchises). Other Open Access companies have been successful, perhaps there was just never enough traffic from Wrexham and Shrewsbury ? 

 

[TomScrut]

30 minutes ago, 159220 said:

Aye! Seeing as the roof appears to be a slide, and thus the 802 is possible. It does appear the nose is also a separate tool or slide and thus, if different they could tool it up. Perhaps this is why we have not got the 802 this year..as they have been waiting to see how further AT300s come before making further investment decisions... never know...DCC CDL and Panto servo could yet happen  I am becoming increasingly disapointed that even Hornby's new tool models are looking 'out of date' in the face of their competition (and even their former models - eg. their HST...they tooled nearly every variation possible on that!). 

 

Yes I have been moaning on the 91 thread about the lack of functionality. Although the 800 is a good model in appearance from what I can tell, would be good if it had servo pantographs etc. Of all the RTR models on the market it probably has the biggest case. It's their insistence on 8 pin that's the issue I think.

 

The TPE 802 was kind of announced in the Hornby catalogue, I think it could be a summer announcement. Given the "Celebrating Scotland" 800 has gone back into next year (a drop back more than what could be COVID related I think) the 802 could already have been on that timescale and therefore they pulled it?

Edited April 12, 2020 by TomScrut

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/04/2020 at 09:25, Oldddudders said:

Well, yes and no. If Government agrees a franchise price and term with a bidder, does it seem fair for another operator to then be allowed to have a portion of the revenue stream? That is what I think happens when an additional operator calls - I believe this used to be called ORCATS Raiding, that being the programme that allocated revenue per route by TOC. So every operator who runs trains between York and London gets a share of the total take, irrespective of whether anybody uses their service. 

It can vary a little with the open access operators but not much if ORCATS is still working to the original software algorithms because it was based on ticket sales in relation to train departure times plus survey data.   Thus if you really want to go ORCSTS raiding to need to have your train immediately ahead of the operator you are competing with and ideally only stopping at the busy stations.  then ORCATS will share teh revnue arising at that time of day with the second operator.

 

What I don't know about is how it handles advance bookings witha. specific operator for a specific train but I suspect it can't share out that revenue - hence the populatrity of seeking online advanced bookings on the part of many operators.

[62613]

On 12/04/2020 at 10:17, TomScrut said:

 

Whether HS2 is particularly helpful to York and above I don't know. The fact it's going round the houses to hit as many areas of population as possible (I know this is the justification for the project) I didn't think there was much of a time saving vs Azuma times once their timetable comes into play? But no doubt will be a lot dearer to travel on?

 

One thing I have thought (and I know it's OT really) is that if they built an airport in the middle of nowhere on HS2 between London and Birmingham it would probably be cheaper than extending Heathrow and be similar timings but from two cities instead of one.

Why? HS2 will be taking the ordinary trains which at the moment run on the legacy network.

[TomScrut]

22 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Why? HS2 will be taking the ordinary trains which at the moment run on the legacy network.

 

I had heard at least that it will be significantly more expensive, but whether that's just the press's opinion I don't know.

 

Not sure what you mean by "taking the ordinary trains"?

[class26]

40 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I had heard at least that it will be significantly more expensive, but whether that's just the press's opinion I don't know.

 

Not sure what you mean by "taking the ordinary trains"?

 

Not true. It will more likely be cheaper.

Yield management will be used to fill seats so essentially the fare goes up and down according to demand. if fares are high this is because demand is high and vice versa.  

Airlines have this technique to perfection and ensures full aircraft. If fares are too high demand goes down and the system adjusts

 

 

[TomScrut]

But surely using that logic if anything the slower trains will be cheaper still?

[Chris116]

2 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

But surely using that logic if anything the slower trains will be cheaper still?

Logic does not always come into it. I have found trips where it is cheaper to travel first class than standard class!

[62613]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

I had heard at least that it will be significantly more expensive, but whether that's just the press's opinion I don't know.

 

Not sure what you mean by "taking the ordinary trains"?

By ordinary trains, I mean the sort of express trains which run, for instance, between, e.g. Edinburgh and London; or Glasgow,Manchester, Liverpool and so on, will be transferred to HS2 for the relevant part of their journey; why would ticket prices be increased, except as part of demand management, as mentioned above.

 

[TomScrut]

2 minutes ago, 62613 said:

By ordinary trains, I mean the sort of express trains which run, for instance, between, e.g. Edinburgh and London; or Glasgow,Manchester, Liverpool and so on, will be transferred to HS2 for the relevant part of their journey; why would ticket prices be increased, except as part of demand management, as mentioned above.

 

 

All of them? What's to happen in-between York and London then? I'd expect there will still be 125mph ones that stop Doncaster Peterborough Stevenage.

 

What will happen to all the Azumas if everything is running on HS2? 

Edited April 14, 2020 by TomScrut

[rodent279]

27 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

Logic does not always come into it. I have found trips where it is cheaper to travel first class than standard class!

That's the logic of a one size fits all, all or nothing, free market, supply and demand solution to providing railway services. It works if you can afford it, or if you can choose when to travel, if you can't, tough.

Edited April 14, 2020 by rodent279

[Zomboid]

Without knowing what the plan actually is, the intermediate stations between York and London will still need to be served. It will be possible to give them a more frequent service because the trains which currently don't stop between York and London won't be required any longer (Edinburgh, Newcastle, Leeds and York to London being served by HS2 trains, plus some of the stations between York and Newcastle). I would expect there to still be trains via the ECML from Leeds & Edinburgh to London which will stop at more places along the way.

[TomScrut]

36 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Without knowing what the plan actually is, the intermediate stations between York and London will still need to be served. It will be possible to give them a more frequent service because the trains which currently don't stop between York and London won't be required any longer (Edinburgh, Newcastle, Leeds and York to London being served by HS2 trains, plus some of the stations between York and Newcastle). I would expect there to still be trains via the ECML from Leeds & Edinburgh to London which will stop at more places along the way.

 

Yes, whenever I travel between York and London there are plenty of people getting on and off at pretty much every station

[62613]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

All of them? What's to happen in-between York and London then? I'd expect there will still be 125mph ones that stop Doncaster Peterborough Stevenage.

 

What will happen to all the Azumas if everything is running on HS2? 

Trains from York and Northwards, and from Leeds at present using the ECML, not normally stopping at, say, Donny or Peterboro, or places like that, would use HS2 phase 2b and run to Euston. These would probably give a faster time than at present. There will then be extra paths on the ECML to run more stopping and semi-fast trains, which of course can run at 125 between stops. The actual service pattern (for a line unlikely to be in use before 2045) has probably not even entered the detail planning stage yet. How old will the Azumas be in 2045?

 

[TomScrut]

46 minutes ago, 62613 said:

How old will the Azumas be in 2045?

 

Haha I didn't realise it was that far away. Was thinking more 2035...

 

Yes I would expect there to be a shuffle up nonetheless in terms of services how many and which line.

 

Would be interesting to know if they will skimp on rolling stock and have a decent proportion of services start from York or Leeds with changes from Edinburgh trains. I know for it to work (in terms of desirability) some will go through but if 50% of the journey is going to be done on lines not suitable for "high speed" then it seems a bit overkill.

 

It's probably going to be a right mess.

 

How many francises? From a practical perspective probably would make sense to put ECML, WCML and HS2 on the same francise since the services would all be on top of each other? Then the question would have to be asked about rolling stock. Do they refresh the stock for all 3 lines so everything is interchangeable? Then would they be used extensively on the slower network? And then the other big question, would they tilt? On another note would tilting trains save time on the ECML between Newcastle and Edinburgh? I know it won't be much but it is the slowest bit of the line.

 

All of the above probably won't happen. Will probably be 3 franchises, with the HS2 franchise taking business off ECML and WCML franchises, hogging their tracks above York and Manchester and all keeping different stock.

[Zomboid]

This is drifting well off topic now, but there would be no real need to change every train on all 3 lines. HS2 is envisaged to be operated by the ICWC operator, presently Avanti. That might change at the next renewal of course.

 

FYI, the proposed HS2 service pattern is shown here: https://images.rail.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/03/29151734/HS2-service-pattern-1068x516.jpg (as part of this  rather interesting article https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2019/03/01/buying-hs2s-high-speed-trains/)

 

There are 3 TPH between York (the junction will actually be at Church Fenton) and Newcastle. So there should be plenty of space for whatever remaining LNER/ TPE/ XC services are required. No HS2 services will (normally) run between Newcastle and Edinburgh, so LNER/ TPE/ XC would have to continue to provide that service, as well as the stations between York and Newcastle which don't get HS2 trains. Probably mostly using AT300 trains since that's what LNER and TPE already use, and one would expect XC to get some at some point given their general lack of capacity.

 

How the Inverness & Aberdeen markets are served will be interesting to see. No suggestion at the moment that they'll be on HS2.

 

But there's another thread for this kind of stuff...

[4630]

The launch of LNER's daily through working between Huddersfield and London Kings Cross, which should have taken place last May, was postponed due to the reduced Covid timetable that was introduced.

 

On 24th August 2020 however Azuma set 800202 visited Huddersfield several times during the day working between Leeds and Huddersfield (5Q60-5Q63).  These workings are also in the schedule for Tuesday and Wednesday this week. 

 

Here is 800202 on the Huddersfield line passing Colne Bridge with 5Q60...

 

...and returning later with 5Q61 approaching Heaton Lodge East Junction.

[4630]

Following on from my post showing Mondays 5Q60 and 5Q61, the current track layout and platform occupancy precludes these working reversing at Huddersfield.  This resulted in the Azuma set running on to Marsden to reverse there.

 

Given that once the LNER service to Huddersfield is launched the appearance of an Azuma set west of Huddersfield will be very unusual, I took the opportunity on 26th August 2020 to record its appearance at Marsden.

 

Azuma 800202 arriving at platform 3, the Up Passenger Loop, at Marsden with 5Q61, 11.00 Huddersfield to Leeds...

 

...and after several TransPennine Express workings had passed on the adjacent lines, the Azuma set off east to pass back through Huddersfield.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by 4630

[62613]

2 hours ago, 4630 said:

Following on from my post showing Mondays 5Q60 and 5Q61, the current track layout and platform occupancy precludes these working reversing at Huddersfield.  This resulted in the Azuma set running on to Marsden to reverse there.

 

Given that once the LNER service to Huddersfield is launched the appearance of an Azuma set west of Huddersfield will be very unusual, I took the opportunity on 26th August 2020 to record its appearance at Marsden.

 

Azuma 800202 arriving into at platform 3, the Up Passenger Loop, at Marsden with 5Q61, 11.00 Huddersfield to Leeds...

 

...and after several TransPennine Express workings had passed on the adjacent lines, the Azuma set off east to pass back through Huddersfield.

 

 

 

May I ask? What is the fencing alongside the line for? The other thing seems to me to be; as the track occupancy and layout problems at Huddersfield aren't going to be resolved just yet, might they not actually extend the service to Marsden?