BlueRail Trains - Bluetooth Locomotive Control

[davetheroad]

That is nice!. I have not heard anything from BlueRail since they announced they are developing DCC connectivity. That BlueRail board gives 2amps output so you could even have double headed DC locomotives. As my RC stuff is Deltang I would use a Rx-65 board (£40) that can handle 3amps or 6 amps with a daughter board. The downside of a Deltang board is you would need a transmitter, £26 kit, £46 built and power rectification circuitry. The bluerail board works on DC, DCC, battery and even auto switches between them so if you installed batteries they would act like a super stay alive capacitor.

[Limpley Stoker]

Similar as the Roco Z21

Edited March 13, 2017 by Limpley Stoker

[davetheroad]

How much does a Roco Z21 cost?

[PaulRhB]

How much does a Roco Z21 cost?

£280-320 depending where you get it in the UK or Europe. Scograil often have best price here.

Note there's a basic z21 and full wifi Z21 and it's a full DCC system so not really a direct comparison

http://www.scograil.co.uk/roco-10820--z21-digital-control-system-2365-p.asp

 

Using the blue rail chip to control track voltage would be good for many garden lines once they offer a higher amp rating.

Edited March 13, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Ron Ron Ron]

..

Consisting and graphically based manual speed matching is now included in the BlueRail App.

 

After much hard work BlueRail has added consisting and speed-matching capability.

Speed matching has always been a hassle in DCC.

The speed matching we’ve added gives you a nice interface that’s intuitive.... so anyone can accurately speed-match their locos in minutes as you run them on your layout.

 

Speed-matching/consisting has been added to our iOS app, and will be ported to Android.

 

To celebrate our release of consisting and speed-matching, BlueRail has adjusted our pricing to make it easier to buy that second board.

We have added a customer loyalty program to our online store which deducts $5 off all orders from existing customers.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4qJFlNt95Y

 

 

 

 

..

Edited March 20, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Exerts taken from the most recent BlueRail Trains news email (17th March 2017)....

 

 

 

 

BlueRail recently celebrated our 2nd anniversary of our relationship with Bachmann trains.

We have been very happy with the success and growth of Bachmann's EZ App product.

Along with making direct train control a reality for thousands of hobbyists, the product line has brought many new and younger users into the hobby.

60% of E-Z App users are under 35 years old, and 75% are under 45.

It is important for the survival of the hobby to attract new users, and E-Z App has bucked the trend you may have heard about the direction of the hobby.

 

BlueRail has been hard at work developing the ability to trigger onboard sound and lighting, appealing more to the serious hobbyist.

 

BlueRail is now free to collaborate with other manufacturers (decoder, loco etc) opening new doors for the development of bluetooth train control.

We are very excited about the prospect of merging the convenience and ease-of-use of bluetooth with the high-quality sound, lighting and accessory control you've come to expect from DCC.

 

BlueRail plugin products may now be sold through hobby shops and retailers (which we couldn't do before) so we're very pleased about that as well.

 

 

As we have invested time in software improvements (like speed-matching), we have also dedicated ourselves to new hardware/firmware developments.

We are striving to address the most requested items from our users, which are:
-Narrower/smaller solution
-Support onboard sound
-Support higher amperage

If you haven’t had a look at the newest BT module, it is excitingly small:
http://bluerailtrains.com/img/BMD-350_Compare.jpg
We are eager to migrate to the smaller module.

 

To address onboard sound, BlueRail is adding a new aspect to our protocol which allows our modules to send/receive DCC.

This adds a new service to our protocol that allows our firmware to communicate (bi-directionally) with DCC decoders, and lets us tap into existing sound libraries and lighting animations of great decoder companies, freeing BlueRail up to focus on interface and new functionality.

So you can finally throw away that PDF explaining how to program CVs.

This opens the door to a number of possible products.

To that end BlueRail has created a working prototype that embraces all of these “most requested items”.

The prototype uses a small form factor to control/edit DCC decoders via the BlueRail app, with anticipation for higher amperage.
Variations of this new prototype will be released as either BlueRail products or collaborations with other companies.

I do not have a firm date on BlueRail’s next plugin board, but will have specifics on this in my next email.

In other news, here is a recent article/video on how to add BlueRail to your AC 3-Rail loco (special thanks to Bob Walker):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiWBG_vbKvw

Also, DeadRail battery users please note the DeadRail kit now let’s you pick between 4 different batteries (250mA, 400mA, 500mA, 850mA). Read this article for more detail:
http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/06/08/charging-batteries-from-bluerail-trains/#batterysizes

In developing all this software, hardware and firmware, BlueRail remains a very small US-based team of guys and we very much appreciate your support.

We are excited about where our developments are taking us, as it allows BlueRail to be a collaborator (rather than an island) in putting a better interface on train control.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[autocoach]

Does not the title of the thread need to change to eliminate the Bachmann reference or should there be the start of a new thread for BlueRail post the Bachmann tie. 

 

It is interesting to see that the developers of this app and firmware seems to be focused on the process of getting the control signal to to an electrically powered unit on the rail. It would eliminate the need for any complicated control wiring or pave the way for track independent power sources (batteries for now). 

 

Personally I am still in watching mode until they market the tiny receiver board.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Does not the title of the thread need to change to eliminate the Bachmann reference or should there be the start of a new thread for BlueRail post the Bachmann tie.....

 

 

Personally speaking, I think a re-title would be better, as >95% of this thread, is concerned with BlueRail Trains themselves.

 

.

[davetheroad]

IMO retitling is a good idea but I would go further and move the topic to the radio control forum because it is not just about DCC, in fact it is mostly not about DCC.

[Ron Ron Ron]

IMO retitling is a good idea but I would go further and move the topic to the radio control forum because it is not just about DCC, in fact it is mostly not about DCC.

You are right that it isn't strictly DCC. That is, it wasn't until they confirmed they are adding DCC capability, which could be a very significant development; so it straddles both camps now.

 

As far as moving the topic to the radio control forum, I think you are wrong Dave, as this BlueRail Trains system will mostly be used by people powering their trains via track power (DC or DCC), as originally intended, before the battery option was added.

Battery power and Dead Rail is is just one option ( and a late addition at that), so again this system straddle both camps.

 

Ron

[davetheroad]

Was battery capability  a late addition? The bluehorse boards have the battery connections built in so I don't think it was an afterthought? Actually batteries are used by the boards as power backup instead of stay alive capacitors so they must have been part of the development process.

 

What I find neat about their boards is they switch seamlessly between track and battery power and so maintain the radio link. For those who want it you can have a hybrid power setup that uses track power on simple track and onboard battery for the complicated stuff like return loops etc.

 

Then there are good things like that impressive consisting capability and sound. The price also drops for multiple purchase so buy 10 and you save $15 per board.

 

I think 3 improvements are needed

 

1 - a smaller board for UK outline locos although you can fit an existing one in a Hornby Railroad diesel!

 

2 - add battery power monitoring, they can do this but I don't think they have implemented it yet.

 

3 - someone needs to find a small handheld 'throttle' for people like me who want tactile feedback because I like to watch the trains while I change the speed.

[autocoach]

IMO retitling is a good idea but I would go further and move the topic to the radio control forum because it is not just about DCC, in fact it is mostly not about DCC.

Blue Tooth is NOT radio control unless you so broad church in your definition of radio to include any method of inter device communication that is wireless. An IPhone/Android device is not a radio phone.  Perhaps the sub forum should be renamed as direct wireless locomotive control. 

[davetheroad]

Blue Tooth is NOT radio control unless you so broad church in your definition of radio to include any method of inter device communication that is wireless. An IPhone/Android device is not a radio phone.  Perhaps the sub forum should be renamed as direct wireless locomotive control. 

 

I don't intend to be pedantic about it but for me and I suspect many others the words radio and wireless mean the same thing.

 

However my radio control system uses the 2.4Ghz band to send digitally encoded signals from my transmitter to my locomotive. I think Bluerails boards do exactly the same within the 2.4Ghx band?  Different protocols but the same result.

Edited March 18, 2017 by davetheroad

[Nile_Griffith]

Think like most, I was interested to read about Blue Rails work towards working with DCC. if I'm honest it's not a capability that holds much interest for me, but I can see how for a lot of people who have a significant investment in DCC sound how such a capability might make Blue Rail a viable platform to migrate too.

 

What I am particularly keen for Blue Rail to achieve and bring to market is a smaller control board. The current "Blue Horse" board is just too big to make it a stress free installation into all but a relatively small number of British "OO" and dare I say continental "HO" locomotives (I qualify that statement by adding I don't own or have tried installing to a European HO loco). If they can implement the new Blue Tooth chip that they show in their current communications then I think the product will find greater adoption amongst modellers. Perhaps negating in some way some of the commercial pressures for a level of DCC integration.

 

Also nice to read that Blue Rail recognise that price is going to be a factor for anyone wishing to make the move from DCC to Blue Rail and that bulk discounts are certainty and not some nicety to be discussed fingers crossed with a retailer.

[Nile_Griffith]

Oh and the easy to set up consisting and speed matching does make the thought of an HST with two power cars seem quite an interesting one............. Ha Ha Ha!

[Gene]

So just for laughs I bought a Bachmann bluetooth EZ-app equipped loco and downloaded the control app to my phone. Just recieved it yesterday and had a quick play. The locobody ..a US GP35 diesel is the usual Bachmann US product...good,not great detail, nice crisp livery and letters. Standard motor and eight-wheel pickup. I'm using a NCE system to power it. The app and controls are all obvious and simple to use for those used to DCC and smartphones. the learning curve was a minute or two. Loco performance was very good and you can adjust the momentum control to a certain extent. Diesel engine sounds are generic...an Alco sounds just like a GP, can't modify the sounds,bells,horns etc. Overall its an ok system, sort of a gimmick...I wouldn't bother buying anymore locos. I think Bachmann would have been better off using the money to improve and fine-tune their existing motor/geartrains and to update some of their older models. The bluetooth to control the loco is a great idea....but the sounds are too limited and having them come out of the smartphone instead of the loco itself doesn't translate well, particularly on larger layouts.

 

Just my opinion,

Cheers Gene

 

PS....this system seems to have a future and is slowly gaining some traction in NA...http://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htm

[Nile_Griffith]

So just for laughs I bought a Bachmann bluetooth EZ-app equipped loco and downloaded the control app to my phone. Just recieved it yesterday and had a quick play. The locobody ..a US GP35 diesel is the usual Bachmann US product...good,not great detail, nice crisp livery and letters. Standard motor and eight-wheel pickup. I'm using a NCE system to power it. The app and controls are all obvious and simple to use for those used to DCC and smartphones. the learning curve was a minute or two. Loco performance was very good and you can adjust the momentum control to a certain extent. Diesel engine sounds are generic...an Alco sounds just like a GP, can't modify the sounds,bells,horns etc. Overall its an ok system, sort of a gimmick...I wouldn't bother buying anymore locos. I think Bachmann would have been better off using the money to improve and fine-tune their existing motor/geartrains and to update some of their older models. The bluetooth to control the loco is a great idea....but the sounds are too limited and having them come out of the smartphone instead of the loco itself doesn't translate well, particularly on larger layouts.

 

Just my opinion,

Cheers Gene

 

PS....this system seems to have a future and is slowly gaining some traction in NA...http://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htm

 

 

Good to read your thoughts about the Bachmann Loco and App.

 

I've only bought the Bluetooth boards from BlueRail and not the Loco/Board product from Bachmann so can't comment much on their loco.

 

I think the current limitations sound, etc. aren't insurmountable ones and after all when DCC first appeared it didn't have too much to show for it other than direction and speed control, it's "advantage" being able to do away with complex track isolation allowing you to run multiple loco's.

 

I know Dave Rees and the guys at BlueRail aren't sitting back on product development and I get the notion that sound implementation is up there on the list of customer wants.

 

I had a quick look at the Ring Engineering offering myself, but I do feel that it misses out on the real advantage of BlueRails ethos. Being fair, it's going to be difficult for any system to really trump any other in the control feature stakes. I mean. Trains go forward and backwards at variable speed and the rest is pretty much just being able to turn things on or off, simplistic I know, but hopefully you get my drift.

 

BlueRails offering essentially means that the cash investment you make, is in kit that there is no real other option for in the wider market place i.e. the loco control board. Why purchase lots of differing bits of DCC hardware or indeed Ring Engineering hardware or other bespoke systems. When the reality is that the ideal "Controller" is already out there and a high percentage of people already own at least one smartphone/tablet device already. 

 

I think in another ten years the hobby will wonder wonder how we got on without it. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Nile_Griffith

[Gene]

Good to read your thoughts about the Bachmann Loco and App.

 

I've only bought the Bluetooth boards from BlueRail and not the Loco/Board product from Bachmann so can't comment much on their loco.

 

I think the current limitations sound, etc. aren't insurmountable ones and after all when DCC first appeared it didn't have too much to show for it other than direction and speed control, it's "advantage" being able to do away with complex track isolation allowing you to run multiple loco's.

 

I know Dave Rees and the guys at BlueRail aren't sitting back on product development and I get the notion that sound implementation is up there on the list of customer wants.

 

I had a quick look at the Ring Engineering offering myself, but I do feel that it misses out on the real advantage of BlueRails ethos. Being fair, it's going to be difficult for any system to really trump any other in the control feature stakes. I mean. Trains go forward and backwards at variable speed and the rest is pretty much just being able to turn things on or off, simplistic I know, but hopefully you get my drift.

 

BlueRails offering essentially means that the cash investment you make, is in kit that there is no real other option for in the wider market place i.e. the loco control board. Why purchase lots of differing bits of DCC hardware or indeed Ring Engineering hardware or other bespoke systems. When the reality is that the ideal "Controller" is already out there and a high percentage of people already own at least one smartphone/tablet device already. 

 

I think in another ten years the hobby will wonder wonder how we got on without it.

 

I agree with you on general principles.

Not familiar with BlueRails so can't comment.

The Ring Engineering stuff looks really interesting but I think most people who are already well-invested in DCC aren't going to suddenly switch....I'm not...and I can afford to...most can't. I think newcomers to the hobby might be the ones to take it up.

 

As far as the Bachmann app....if they can improve the ability of the consumer to fine-tune the motor performance parameters and improve both the sounds in quality,variety and the consumers ability to tweak them as well as move the sound to the loco I think it will be viable....if it stays as is then its just a sort of gimmick IMHO.

[davetheroad]

Have you tried the Bluerail app? I think it has a lot more functionality than the Bachmann version. There is a video on the blurail site showing how you can use a micro Bluetooth speaker in the train and have the sound redirected to it.

 

For me they need a smaller board with battery voltage monitoring. Plus a small handheld tactile throttle (knob). As for sound, OK if you want it but it clashes with the music I play whilst operating trains.

 

I agree that in 10 years time track power will be seen as a niche market compared to the mainstream battery power. Oh the joy of no wiring and locos that don't stall.

[Gene]

Have you tried the Bluerail app? I think it has a lot more functionality than the Bachmann version. There is a video on the blurail site showing how you can use a micro Bluetooth speaker in the train and have the sound redirected to it.

 

For me they need a smaller board with battery voltage monitoring. Plus a small handheld tactile throttle (knob). As for sound, OK if you want it but it clashes with the music I play whilst operating trains.

 

I agree that in 10 years time track power will be seen as a niche market compared to the mainstream battery power. Oh the joy of no wiring and locos that don't stall.

Yes I did try the Bluerail app...it is pretty much the same as the Bachmann app as far as actuL train control goes. It doesn't appear to offer any more motor control-functionality than the Bachmann app. The horn sounds better on the Bluerail app and the momentum control seems to do a better job of gliding the loco to a stop than the Bachmann app does but those are about the only diffrences that I could see. I did watch the Bluerail video and the whole consisting and speed-matching does look very promising....the speed-matching in particuler looks very handy!!...... almost wants to make me buy another loco just to try that out with

[Nile_Griffith]

Yes I did try the Bluerail app...it is pretty much the same as the Bachmann app as far as actuL train control goes. It doesn't appear to offer any more motor control-functionality than the Bachmann app. The horn sounds better on the Bluerail app and the momentum control seems to do a better job of gliding the loco to a stop than the Bachmann app does but those are about the only diffrences that I could see. I did watch the Bluerail video and the whole consisting and speed-matching does look very promising....the speed-matching in particuler looks very handy!!...... almost wants to make me buy another loco just to try that out with

 

 

 

Hi there!

 

I think war you might find (and I stand and to be corrected if wrong) is that the App won't show you the full range of adjustments available, unless connected to an active BlueRail board. I have earlier in this thread written a more extended operational review of the board, but I have attached a screen grab of the "Motor Settings" screen and as you can see it offers a good range of adjustments, certainly as many as my Lenz system offers and in a much more accessible and understandable format.

 

 

I do understand your view on being able to move the sound from the handset to the Loco. I'm not so worried about the issue of range of sounds as at the moment the product itself is still pretty new and BlueRail have a lot of hardware and software targets in their sights, one of which is sound. What I would possibly disagree with, is the notion that sound has to emanate from a model loco.

 

As I've previously ranted on about in other threads, is that you can't scale sound, so sound emanating from a moving model will not emulate any of the real world full size physics in the same way that a sound emanates from a 1:1 scale Loco. Similarly, the acoustic environment of a modelled station or depot will not provide the same audible changes to a source of sound in the same way as the real thing. So why do we feel the need to do it? 

 

DCC sound chips have relatively limited memory capacity, the circuitry required to drive what are comparatively expensive and limited dynamics speakers add extra current draw to the layout and then there is of course the cost of adding speakers to all of those models. BlueRails offering allows for the loco sound to be transmitted to a pair of external speakers covering the viewing area of the layout. There have even been this who have managed to place a battery powered bluetooth speaker within a wagon........ But personally I don't see too much value in that one.

 

The future potential for layout sound, in my own opinion. Has far better potential in the bluetooth domain. As part of my task in earning an honest crust, I work with audio for TV and film. There are projects where I am required to create a convincing soundscape for a living room full of viewers from two relatively cheap speakers attached to the side of a TV set (and usually set in the corner of a room). So imagine the potential for a modelled layout if my Bluetooth control system could access an extensive range of loco sounds stored within the much larger storage capacity of my smartphone or tablet and replay those through an array of speakers that cove the viewing position of my layout.

 

At present the business potential for this kind of "layout sound" hasn't been realised, but the tech is certainly in place to achieve it and it' not even particularly complex technology by todays standards. What it really needs are commercial enterprises willing to make the investment in time and money to expand that potential. As said before when DCC hit the streets it wasn't a fraction of what we see the product as now.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Nile_Griffith

[Gene]

Nile...that screenshot certainly does have more motor controls than the Smartphone app. As for the board itself...I know absolutely nothing about it. The sound in the phone not the loco....my thinking on that is that for a smallish home layout its ok....but once you get to a bigger layout,at a clubhouse for example, it might not work so well. My club layout for example...if the loco is diagonally across the layout from me and my phone it might sound very odd hearing the sound coming from across the room to those standing right by the loco. I'll find out next weekend when I go to the club.

 

I do admit....I broke down and ordered another loco,I'll have to renumber it. What convinced me to do it, besides the awesome price, was seeing the BlueRails video about speed-matching and consisting. The apparent simplicity of both with the BlueRail system, compared to regular DCC could become a huge, huge selling point IMHO. So I really want to test that out.

 

Cheers

Gene

[Nile_Griffith]

Nile...that screenshot certainly does have more motor controls than the Smartphone app. As for the board itself...I know absolutely nothing about it. The sound in the phone not the loco....my thinking on that is that for a smallish home layout its ok....but once you get to a bigger layout,at a clubhouse for example, it might not work so well. My club layout for example...if the loco is diagonally across the layout from me and my phone it might sound very odd hearing the sound coming from across the room to those standing right by the loco. I'll find out next weekend when I go to the club.

 

I do admit....I broke down and ordered another loco,I'll have to renumber it. What convinced me to do it, besides the awesome price, was seeing the BlueRails video about speed-matching and consisting. The apparent simplicity of both with the BlueRail system, compared to regular DCC could become a huge, huge selling point IMHO. So I really want to test that out.

 

Cheers

Gene

 

 

Hi Gene.

 

You are quite right in what you say about having the sound emanating from your phone while the loco is across on the other side of a largish club layout, it's not really a practicable application.

 

I think the real potential has yet to be maximised with bluetooth. Once we start seeing a greater variety of boards and accessory decoders available to buy, then that will make it very interesting for software developers to get involved with. What appeals is the fact that the only specific hardware you will potentially need to purchase will be the loco controlling boards and accessory de-coders. All the required hand controllers and control surfaces/devices will be stuff we already own.

[Gene]

Nile...I do agree there is huge potential for this technology. It will be interesting to see how it pans out. I'm assuming that the existing Bachmann E-Z app system is a "joint-venture" setup with BlueRails and that they can move it along. Right now its seems more of a gimmicky kind of thing aimed at the kiddy train-set market.

 

Granted I am only into this for a few days but I think if they want it to become more mainstream and something that will expandand be able to compete with DCC they need to quickly increase the number of sound files available, improve the quality of the sound-files and the delivery of same......and I'd really like to see the sounds coming from the loco itself for exactly the reason I previously mentioned. Actually the best would be if you could, using the app on your phone, switch the sounds from either the phone or the loco itself depending on the situation.

 

I'm not tech-savy enough myself, so forgive me but at present are the loco sound-files all within the app itself? Or are they on the loco hardware and are just being broadcast via bluetooth to my phone??

[Ron Ron Ron]

....I'm assuming that the existing Bachmann E-Z app system is a "joint-venture" setup with BlueRails and that they can move it along. Right now its seems more of a gimmicky kind of thing aimed at the kiddy train-set market.

BlueRail Trains developed the product and tied up with Bachmann, who had an exclusive contract with them for the initial launch period.

Bachmann clearly saw the initial application of Bluetooth control as a way of re-stimulating interest in the slowly dying train-set market.

What better than some modern tech and the use of the ubiquitous smart devices to hook the youngsters and maybe young adults?

 

That exclusive period has expired and BlueRail Trains say they would welcome other partners, as well as selling directly under their own brand name.

Their focus on now developing DCC integration is clearly aimed at the "serious modeller".

 

 

Granted I am only into this for a few days but I think if they want it to become more mainstream and something that will expandand be able to compete with DCC they need to quickly increase the number of sound files available, improve the quality of the sound-files and the delivery of same......and I'd really like to see the sounds coming from the loco itself for exactly the reason I previously mentioned. Actually the best would be if you could, using the app on your phone, switch the sounds from either the phone or the loco itself depending on the situation.

 

I'm not tech-savy enough myself, so forgive me but at present are the loco sound-files all within the app itself? Or are they on the loco hardware and are just being broadcast via bluetooth to my phone??

The sound files are contained entirely within the app.

It is possible to broadcast them to Bluetooth devices, such as the mini Bluetooth sound cube shown in one of their videos.

 

I'm not 100% on the technical aspects, but I think that despite Bluetooth 4 (LE) being able to connect between many devices at the same time, sound file transmission is still limited.

What will be of interest to many, is the company's intention to work towards controlling DCC sound decoders via this app based technology.

 

 

. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron