BlueRail Trains - Bluetooth Locomotive Control

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have long felt that with any form of wireless control, the option of plain track only charging of an onboard battery, with all the points etc. dead and clever power management on board the vehicle is the 'easy winner' on three counts:

No need to handle the model or remember to recharge it, (models are most often damaged by handling)

Battery can be physically small as it only has to sustain power over relatively short dead rail sections, (suits tiny prototypes)

Layout wiring is very simple. (Hurrah)

 

Whichever business gets there first with this package of capabilities well sorted into a plug and play format is in my opinion going to rapidly corner the market in the 'next big advance from DCC' sector.

 

There's a smart RTR track integration oppotunity too, if desiring to fully ice the cake. The point rails may be dead, but there is power continuity provided via the track connector design (insulated rail joiner with a wiper contact to the live track rails) so that there is wired in power to the built in point motors with integrated decoders. The end of fooling around fitting and wiring free-standing point motors with a separate power supply and control gear as present DC and DCC requires. It's all possible, needs a manufacturer with the desire for global conquest to make the investment.

[Nile_Griffith]

Without wishing to veer too much away from the original conversation point. I feel that the discussions put forward on "Hybridisation" by Dave The Road and a more developed use of Track/Bus power authored by 34thLetter, overlook a simple premise. Cost to consumer.

 

I've long banged on in different parts of the forum, that members of RMWeb are not indicative of the entire market place for model trains. I'd venture that there are a good number of regular purchasers of model railway.......... stuff, who never entertain the thought of gleaning thoughts and opinions from places like this. Not because they are ignorant or ill informed, it's just that their requirement from the hobby is quite simple and their willingness to part with their hard earned monies in pursuit of that hobby is equally as measured.

 

Yes on board battery power with elegant re-charging solutions may well make a lot of sense to a certain niche of modellers. Similarly a much better developed use of track to act not only as a bus for model locomotive power but also track side accessories and such like seems like a very logical progression of the product.

 

However model railway products are not aimed at a "Professional" market. A very small percentage (I'd go as far as saying a fraction of a percent) of buyers of these products, derive any kind of financial profit from their purchase. So the investment required by companies to develop such tech has to be put against a wider marketplaces willingness to see the "Bang for Buck" benefit to their hard won purchases. 

 

How much time per week does your average "Train Layout" owner spend playing trains? An hour or two hours at most, maybe. I know serious modellers who feel they are doing well if they can get around four hours playtime at the weekend. By and by the relatively infrequent use that most models get and by the greater majority of their ownership, doesn't justify further esoteric development by manufacturers on a mass scale. There is actually a benefit to a simplified "power" approach. The principles are fairly simple to understand and straight forward in oration to most owners, maintenance and trouble shooting also lies within those owners mental comfort zones too.

 

So yes the hybridisation idea maybe has some ground, but only for a relatively narrow spectrum of modellers/purchasers and provided by similarly small niche of manufacturers.

 

Getting back in the general direction of the OP. This is where BlueRail's offering hopefully succeeds. DCC has over the years found it's way into "Mainline" (pardon the pun) production. With manufacturers realising the value and appetite for the product to its average consumer. However for all DCC's benefits of control and broadening the playability of the traditionally limited train set. It is a relatively expensive step forward for the day to day purchaser and a technology that has more than a touch of "The Black Arts" for the average user. BlueRails product seeks to diminish two of DCC's distinct drawbacks. Equipment cost and the need for a more in depth knowledge of the product that can be out of most purchasers area of competence. The cream on the cake comes with bluetooths scope for further development in areas of accessories and control, something where DCC has kind of hit it's developmental plateau.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Nile_Griffith

[davetheroad]

Just a quick update about sound. I have two Bluehorse boards so set up one loco as a diesel and the other steam. Switched on the sounds. You can have the chuffs etc switched off but the bells and whistles still work. I started up the diesel and accelerated so there were diesel sounds. Then switched to the steam loco, started it and accelerated, the chuffs were there but surprisingly so were the diesel sounds. The app is blending the 2 sound tracts!.

[davetheroad]

Bluetooth have just announced that they have developed the technology to drive DCC decoders and sound cards through their Bluerail board and Bluetooth Apps!.

[Nile_Griffith]

Was under the impression that the BlueRail Trains development was control of DCC Sound boards, not control of DCC locomotive control Boards. Doing so would be rater like double handling the operation of the Locomotive. Let alone the notion of setting up the BlueRail board to tweak the DCC cv's to suit.

[davetheroad]

This is the relevant quote from the BlueRail email.

 

The other big exciting project BlueRail has been absorbed in is creating the technology for our bluetooth protocol to communicate with DCC and sound decoders

 

​As it says DCC 'and' I read it as communicating with non sound decoders.

[autocoach]

This is the relevant quote from the BlueRail email.

 

The other big exciting project BlueRail has been absorbed in is creating the technology for our bluetooth protocol to communicate with DCC and sound decoders

 

​As it says DCC 'and' I read it as communicating with non sound decoders.

DCC Sound Decoders and DCC non-sound decoders is how I understand it. No mention of non-DCC sound systems.  They are, according to my understanding aiming for as broad a market as possible.  Unfortunately this is delaying the development of smaller receivers that could work in tank locomotives and Vanderbilt tenders (my problem) and expansion into N scale. But their rational is good. Get the DCC and DCC sound (non DCC sound?) issues resolved on the primary board and the carry that over to smaller receiver boards rather than having to retrofit.   As I understand it you may still need a DCC rail connection to set up CV's on the decoder.  However the hand held device (smart phone) would be able to trigger sounds and adjust volume. Problem is there is no accepted standard for sound CV's. Every decoder manufacturer has gone their own way. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by autocoach

[Nile_Griffith]

DCC Sound Decoders and DCC non-sound decoders is how I understand it. No mention of non-DCC sound systems.  They are, according to my understanding aiming for as broad a market as possible.  Unfortunately this is delaying the development of smaller receivers that could work in tank locomotives and Vanderbilt tenders (my problem) and expansion into N scale. But their rational is good. Get the DCC and DCC sound (non DCC sound?) issues resolved on the primary board and the carry that over to smaller receiver boards rather than having to retrofit.   As I understand it you may still need a DCC rail connection to set up CV's on the decoder.  However the hand held device (smart phone) would be able to trigger sounds and adjust volume. Problem is there is no accepted standard for sound CV's. Every decoder manufacturer has gone their own way. 

 

 

Using a Bluetooth control board to pass on asymmetric data to a DCC control only board makes no real sense. Why have a dog and bark yourself??? Surely the logical method is to swap the Bluetooth board for the DCC board and sell the DCC board on to recover some of the cost. why have twice the devices and twice the cost to do what can be done by one board??

 

Yes I can see the sense in being able to transmit on from the Bluetooth board to a DCC Sound chip the relevant information required to fire the onboard sound samples. That in itself makes good business sense as many people have invested heavily in their locomotives sound installations. But having two boards to do what one board can do alone????

[Nile_Griffith]

Oh and I forgot!!

 

Piggy backing a Bluetooth control board of a conventional DCC control board to obtain "Wireless" control makes no economic sense at all. By the time you have invested in half a dozen BlueRail boards you may as well have gone down one of the more esoteric wireless DCC solutions.

[davetheroad]

Oh and I forgot!!

 

Piggy backing a Bluetooth control board of a conventional DCC control board to obtain "Wireless" control makes no economic sense at all. By the time you have invested in half a dozen BlueRail boards you may as well have gone down one of the more esoteric wireless DCC solutions.

 

You have a point there. BlueRail must have a reason for doing what they do, maybe somewhat driven by Bachmanns wishes, and investment money. Lets take an extreme guess. Bachmann are going to announce a 'base station less' replacement for DCC, App driven with the ability to control the old heritage DCC decoders. The future DCC will be radio controlled App driven with a choice of track power/ battery power or a combination of both - and Bachmann, or they hope it will.

[Ron Ron Ron]

There could be a number of reasons why someone might want to add a BlueRail DCC interface board to a DCC decoder equipped loco.

 

e.g.

 

For dual running on both DCC and Bluetooth layouts (DC or dead-rail).

Bluetooth at home, but DCC on a friend's or club layout (or v.v.).

DCC on an indoor layout and Bluetooth on an outdoor layout (dead-rail or DC powered).

DCC on one indoor layout and Bluetooth on another indoor layout.

 

 

.

[davetheroad]

BlueRail have said they have developed the technology to drive a DCC decoder. Do they have to include this in one of their control board or in addition they could have a 'lite' version which is much smaller and cheaper but only drives a DCC decoder. Their Bluetooth module is now available in a smaller size and includes processing ability plus memory etc.

[Nile_Griffith]

BlueRail have said they have developed the technology to drive a DCC decoder. Do they have to include this in one of their control board or in addition they could have a 'lite' version which is much smaller and cheaper but only drives a DCC decoder. Their Bluetooth module is now available in a smaller size and includes processing ability plus memory etc.

 

 

 

Can't see the new board on their website??? Where did you pick up on the details of this? would like to see what size the new board is.

[Nile_Griffith]

You have a point there. BlueRail must have a reason for doing what they do, maybe somewhat driven by Bachmanns wishes, and investment money. Lets take an extreme guess. Bachmann are going to announce a 'base station less' replacement for DCC, App driven with the ability to control the old heritage DCC decoders. The future DCC will be radio controlled App driven with a choice of track power/ battery power or a combination of both - and Bachmann, or they hope it will.

 

Would attach a hefty price tag to a standard loco and then works on the assumption that the purchaser wants some sort of control platform hybrid. The attraction of BlueRails offering is the lack of investment required in specialist system hardware, DCC power supplies and hand throttles. I don't really see the economic mileage to be gained. Your either going to adopt Bluetooth and sell of your DCC set up (over time) or stick with DCC. Not sure this either/or idea has legs.

[davetheroad]

Can't see the new board on their website??? Where did you pick up on the details of this? would like to see what size the new board is.

 

Apologies, I was referring to the Bluetooth/Processing module which is produced by Ridago. According to BlueRail Ridago now have a module available which is half the size.

[aforsyth]

Quick query about the existing BlueRail boards available at CoastalDCC (http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/bluerail/) - apologies if this was asked some time ago:

 

Is the only difference between the Track Power and Battery Power boards simply the soldered battery fly leads attached to the latter? I'm hoping there's more to it than that to justify the extra £10 price difference!

 

Thanks,

Alan 

[davetheroad]

Quick query about the existing BlueRail boards available at CoastalDCC (http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/bluerail/) - apologies if this was asked some time ago:

 

Is the only difference between the Track Power and Battery Power boards simply the soldered battery fly leads attached to the latter? I'm hoping there's more to it than that to justify the extra £10 price difference!

 

Thanks,

Alan 

 

Yes, that is the only difference. Those battery attachment points are tiny though and surrounded by other components so you have to be good with a soldering iron if you want to add your own. My boards were provided with nice soft flexible wires but even so they do stick out a bit and I think it would be better if they had SIL sockets instead so you could plug in single core wire.

 

Update - I updated my Android version of the App last night - or I think I did. Not had time to test it yet and I am shutting the layout down for the xmas break. I might get a couple of hours in this week though.

[Nile_Griffith]

Quick query about the existing BlueRail boards available at CoastalDCC (http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/bluerail/) - apologies if this was asked some time ago:

 

Is the only difference between the Track Power and Battery Power boards simply the soldered battery fly leads attached to the latter? I'm hoping there's more to it than that to justify the extra £10 price difference!

 

Thanks,

Alan 

 

 

 

As I've found to my cost, soldering anything to a modern densely populated printed circuit board these days requires a bit more than a steady hand. The reality is that no matter how good or surgeon like your hands are, a poor choice of soldering iron or indeed even solder can result in a damaged board. Yes a tenner might seem a bit of premium for someone to attach a couple of wires, however at least with that you have the assurance that the board is testing and guaranteed to work, or usual consumer rights apply.

 

I once had a freelance engineer who decided to use his nifty butane powered soldering iron to do a little remedial soldering on a rather expensive circuit board within a sound desk one day. I'll let all those who understand such things cringe internally at the thought.

[Nile_Griffith]

There could be a number of reasons why someone might want to add a BlueRail DCC interface board to a DCC decoder equipped loco.

 

e.g.

 

For dual running on both DCC and Bluetooth layouts (DC or dead-rail).

Bluetooth at home, but DCC on a friend's or club layout (or v.v.).

DCC on an indoor layout and Bluetooth on an outdoor layout (dead-rail or DC powered).

DCC on one indoor layout and Bluetooth on another indoor layout.

 

 

.

 

I kind of get what you are saying Ron (Da Doo Ron Ron), But to run a a BlueRail equipped Loco on a DCC layout all you need is a smart device such as the ubiquitous iPhone, iPad or similar android device. Thats the joy of it!!! Best of all because the App is free anybody can download it to their own suitable device and not have to cue up waiting for their turn with the DCC throttle.

[aforsyth]

As I've found to my cost, soldering anything to a modern densely populated printed circuit board these days requires a bit more than a steady hand. The reality is that no matter how good or surgeon like your hands are, a poor choice of soldering iron or indeed even solder can result in a damaged board. Yes a tenner might seem a bit of premium for someone to attach a couple of wires, however at least with that you have the assurance that the board is testing and guaranteed to work, or usual consumer rights apply.

 

Thanks Dave, Nile. Yes - I agree, it's wise to pick up the professionally built & tested version rather than DIY, but I hope they do eventually get the cost down.

On the positive side, I find that the simplest way I can justify this investment for a small 1-loco shunting layout is that I won't need to buy a dedicated DC/DCC controller for it!

 

Alan

[aforsyth]

Just looking through some BlueRail videos on YouTube, I came across this interesting idea (don't think it's been mentioned here):

 

Using a BlueRail board statically wired to a DC layout, in order to provide smart phone control of standard DC trains and lights/points.

Obviously loses some benefits of mobile BR boards (dead rail / independent control), but to revolutionise the kids' Hornby trainset for a minimum price and no loco modifications - why not? 

 

Alan

[Ron Ron Ron]

Just looking through some BlueRail videos on YouTube, I came across this interesting idea (don't think it's been mentioned here).......

 

 

Hi Alan,

It was mentioned a couple of pages ago (back in the summer), although that particular video wasn't posted at the time.

 

There's a video of an N gauge layout being run off a single board, in post no. 386 on page 16 of this topic thread.

 

 

.

[aforsyth]

Ah ok - thanks, I was mainly searching for that video ref.

 

I think I saw your post back then, but the potential for small cost-effective demo layouts or trainsets didn't click at the time!

 

Cheers,
Alan

 

Hi Alan,

It was mentioned a couple of pages ago (back in the summer), although that particular video wasn't posted at the time.

 

There's a video of an N gauge layout being run off a single board, in post no. 386 on page 16 of this topic thread.

 

 

.

[Nile_Griffith]

Thanks Dave, Nile. Yes - I agree, it's wise to pick up the professionally built & tested version rather than DIY, but I hope they do eventually get the cost down.

On the positive side, I find that the simplest way I can justify this investment for a small 1-loco shunting layout is that I won't need to buy a dedicated DC/DCC controller for it!

 

Alan

 

 

Hi Alan.

 

I can remember when DCC first hit the shelves and not paying all that much less for decoder boards then, that were not all that much smaller than the BlueRail board and offered a lot less in the way of features too. I guess it will really all be down to how well both the the Bachmann pre-installed loco's and the individual boards themselves sell. As to how much of a reduction in price we will see in the future.

 

I have to concede that I'm holding off on further purchases of the BlueRail board until such times as the physical size of the decoder reduces. I am however more than happy with the performance of the boards that I have and find as an average user who is not interested in sound fitted loco's, that the platform is a great deal more user friendly than DCC and certainly a lot more cost effective.

 

If I have a particular wish list (other than a smaller Blue Horse board). Would be to see either BlueRail or another company (BlueRail have made their code open source). Come up with a software control platform that could be run from a laptop via Bluetooth (This might mean the purchase of a suitable but cheap Bluetooth dongle for some laptops). I'm guessing that once we start seeing bluetooth accessory boards for such things as point control and layout lighting, we may well see such options arrive. But personally I'm a bit impatient......... Ha Ha Ha!

[glennofootscray]

G'day All,

 

After the initial installation of one Bluerail decoder into one of my fleet, I have made an ad hoc DC controller with the other one.

 

As this is not rocket science, it does allow myself to wireless control wirelessly the DC portion of my fleet without being tethered to the layout.

 

Refer to the following photos, and the blogspot.

https://glennofootscray.blogspot.com.au/2017/03/im-too-easily-distracted.html

 

Regards Glenn