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Mikkel

Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

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24 minutes ago, Donw said:

..............................

 

I am a bit puzzled by MikeOxon's paint the his loco was in the Blue-Green early livery but the paint is quoted as Dark Green and the link from Chris shows it as a nice Dark green  or have I misunderstood?

 

Don

 

 

 

I saw it in the 'flesh' (in Homebase) a few years ago and was struck by the blue/green colour, although the pot was described as 'dark green'. I hope they've not changed the composition.  It looks much greener in tungsten light but very blue in skylight.  Perhaps look before you buy.

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21 hours ago, Mikkel said:

All these exotic liveries make me want to rebuild and repaint my No. 835. I see that particular loco has been depicted by other modellers in both Wolverhampton blue and Chocolate.  Need to check up on whether that is based on fact.

 

 There is no evidence that 835 carried the chocolate livery.  Most if not all of those so finished had enclosed cabs.  I have pictures of 835 circa 1914 and later with an early belpaire boiler but no enclosed cab.  Those locos that received the brown livery are listed in the RCTS and IIRC, 835 is not among them.

 

This is my 835 which was spray painted with a very elderly tin of Precision Paints pre 1928 which is darker than their current pre 1906!  For some reason the colour on the boiler is darker than the tank sides!

 

Since this photo was taken she has been finished off with whistles and buffers:

 

IMG_2040.jpg.59b76a6bf41bfee252a5a5f67f7c31fa.jpg

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On 19/07/2019 at 10:58, Edwardian said:

The picture below was taken by me at STEAM, Swindon, in 2014. 

1993952997_517ClassNo_832.JPG.d4cac4a499f72ae2c7234f88557da79d.JPG

 

 

What is the name of that (Wolverhampton) green?

 

 

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22 hours ago, Mikkel said:

........................

All these exotic liveries make me want to rebuild and repaint my No. 835. I see that particular loco has been depicted by other modellers in both Wolverhampton blue and Chocolate.  Need to check up on whether that is based on fact.

 

 

No.835 seems to be a popular modellers' choice.  When I did a very basic conversion of my K's 14xx, this is the one I chose, since I needed to find a prototype 517 with both a Belpaire firebox and inside-bearings on the trailing wheels. Fortunately, Russell's 'GW locomotives' contains a photo of No. 835 with these key features, so I numbered mine accordingly.

 

The chocolate colour was used on a few auto-tanks so that, when sandwiched between two trailers, they would 'blend in' with the carriage livery; an early example of 'customer preference testing', perhaps.  A few 517-class were even fitted with overall carriage-outline bodies but the experiment was short-lived, presumably because of the maintenance problem they caused

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1 minute ago, MikeOxon said:

 

A few 517-class were even fitted with overall carriage-outline bodies but the experiment was short-lived, presumably because of the maintenance problem they caused

 

That I would like to see...

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29 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

The chocolate colour was used on a few auto-tanks so that, when sandwiched between two trailers, they would 'blend in' with the carriage livery; an early example of 'customer preference testing', perhaps.

 

How long did the chocolate livery last? I'm interested in the early 1920s - what are the chances that it would be seen then?

 

Martin

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2 hours ago, Brassey said:

 .................................

This is my 835 which was spray painted with a very elderly tin of Precision Paints pre 1928 which is darker than their current pre 1906!  For some reason the colour on the boiler is darker than the tank sides!

..................................

 

When I used that paint on my 1854ST, I thought it looked very unsaturated.  Applying a coat of varnish made a huge difference and made the green colour much more obvious.  Perhaps your tank sides have received more varnish or some other treatment?

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1 hour ago, martinT said:

 

How long did the chocolate livery last? I'm interested in the early 1920s - what are the chances that it would be seen then?

 

Martin

 

The auto train was introduced in the Edwardian era under Churchward circa 1905.  I am currently building 1425 in chocolate for my layout dated 1912 so I am assuming the livery lasted at least till then.  She was shedded at Leominster in 1912.

 

RCTS gives the chocolate numbers as: 

205

222

518

523

524

526

530

531

533

544

546

561

564

828

829

831

833

848

1155

1156

1157

1160

1161

1163

1165

1423

1425

1470

1488

 

Nos 533 and 833 had the overall dummy coachwork.  The cladding on the two fully enclosed 517's was removed by 1911. It might also be fair to assume that at a major overhaul i.e. fitting of a belpaire firebox, that these other locos would have reverted to standard livery. But according to RCTS the "distinctive colouring was abandoned in 1924, though isolated examples survived several years afterwards".

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3 minutes ago, Brassey said:

 But according to RCTS the "distinctive colouring was abandoned in 1924, though isolated examples survived several years afterwards".

 Thanks - so it's possible that 831 retained chocolate in the early 20s. She didn't gain a belpaire 'box until June 1928, & my 1925 photo (SLS #1103 from list SPC1) shews extended smokebox & topfeed.

Martin

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I doubt chocolate 517s survived into the early 20s. From 1912 (-ish), the colour adopted for 'distinctive' 517s became crimson lake.

 

 

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2 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

When I used that paint on my 1854ST, I thought it looked very unsaturated.  Applying a coat of varnish made a huge difference and made the green colour much more obvious.  Perhaps your tank sides have received more varnish or some other treatment?

 

I have not varnished this loco yet.  It was a bit of an experiment to be honest and I used a very faint mist of PP two-part etched primer which is how they recommend it should be used.  The loco is a hybrid of whitemetal and nickel and not too sure the primer took too well on some of the metal if at all.  The cruel closeup pic shows the paint is already lifting off in parts particularly the top edge of the tanks.  I have now reverted to using Halfords etch primer which goes on much thicker.

 

I do however particularly prefer the shade of green on the boiler which is almost black.  Not too sure what effect varnish might have on this colour 

 

IMG_2188.jpg.b64ae05a035248aa115b2cd159ef6cde.jpg

Edited by Brassey
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On 19/07/2019 at 15:18, Harlequin said:

I found some interesting discussion about the consistency of GWR loco green including a reference to finding "holly green" on City of Truro during restoration here:

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/gwr-light-and-dark-stone-paint.1099053/page-2

 

Great find. It was reassuring to read Bob Shephard in print again, so much so that I have completely rewritted gwr.org's page on loco greens.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I have completely rewritten gwr.org's page on loco greens.

 

 

So, contrary to much previous orthodoxy, locomotives painted at Swindon were painted the same colour from at least 1875 right down to 1945 and presumably beyond but (a) the chemical composition of the paint changed with advances in technology and (b) the perceived colour changed depending on the number of coats of varnish applied and also, one infers, the composition of the varnish and its age.

 

The question "where are these mythical panels" remains unanswered, as does he question who was the manufacturer who binned them, having had them on loan from Pendon. I would not presume to infer the panels Precision (in the person of Bob Shephard) had were the Pendon panels; a suggestion was made recently (on another thread) that Steam might hold a set of panels, possibly in one of its specialised collections.

Edited by Compound2632
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20 hours ago, Brassey said:

 There is no evidence that 835 carried the chocolate livery.  Most if not all of those so finished had enclosed cabs.  I have pictures of 835 circa 1914 and later with an early belpaire boiler but no enclosed cab.  Those locos that received the brown livery are listed in the RCTS and IIRC, 835 is not among them.

 

Thanks for this Brassey, that's why it's so dangerous to rely on other people's liveries and numbering - including pro built ones.

 

19 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

 

No.835 seems to be a popular modellers' choice. 

 

Yes, by far the most modelled example I think! Probably because it was fairly long-lived and kept the inside bearings.

 

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That I would like to see...

 

Apart from Mike's link to the Trumper's Crossing photo, there is an interesting model of an enclosed 517 on the Bambrick site - and also some other 517s including one in an interpretation of the lake livery. The easiest is to do a page search for '517' on this page: http://bambrickstudio.co.uk/latest-news/

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7 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

including one in an interpretation of the lake livery. 

 

A point I hadn't appreciated before re. the lake carriage livery, though on checking gwr.or.uk I see the information had been under my nose, is that it was more akin to North Eastern than Midland livery, with the moldings being lake lined gold rather than black lined gold as for the Chocolate and cream livery. Was the brown livery similarly all-over brown?

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31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Was the brown livery similarly all-over brown?

 

I believe so. 

Edited by richbrummitt
Reduce quotation to relevant sentence
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14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A point I hadn't appreciated before re. the lake carriage livery, though on checking gwr.or.uk I see the information had been under my nose, is that it was more akin to North Eastern than Midland livery, with the moldings being lake lined gold rather than black lined gold as for the Chocolate and cream livery. Was the brown livery similarly all-over brown?

 

Regarding all-over brown livery, I have debated this issue before elsewhere; according to the RCTS preliminary survey page 44, deep "crimson lake" was adopted in 1908.  Although it appears to be received wisdom that lake was not adopted until 1912 (pre-ceded by brown) there are no contemporary records in 1912 supporting this livery change but there were plenty in 1908.  It is likely that the early attempt at lake quickly weathered to brown before the GWR mastered the new livery so brown was the perceived colour until the painting improved.  Again according to RCTS, County Tank 2225 was outshopped in crimson lake in July 1909 not brown.  So any auto tanks that were painted circa 1905 would have been chocolate to match the coaching stock but I would ascertain that from 1908 they would have been lake.

 

It has been suggested that the only way to establish the true facts is to check the minutes of the appropriate committees' minutes held at Kew; a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Edited by Brassey
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On 19/07/2019 at 19:44, ChrisN said:

Mike,

Is it this?  If so it is just what I need.

 

Just found the following image on the Homebase website, which looks like my version:

 

RustoleumDarkGreen.jpg.12025e99fdf3569bb3ec42f9612c060f.jpg

 

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17 hours ago, Brassey said:

It is likely that the early attempt at lake quickly weathered to brown before the GWR mastered the new livery so brown was the perceived colour until the painting improved.

 

That sounds plausible to me, and ties in with the effect of a few layers of the varnish being used at the time.

 

Quote

 

So any auto tanks that were painted circa 1905 would have been chocolate to match the coaching stock

 

 

Very logical, but the problem is that the colour the models have been painted in uses a lighter medium brown,  and nothing like chocolate. Possibly they tried chocolate, but it looked too dark (not enough distinction from the black?), so they used something lighter.

 

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4 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

 

Just found the following image on the Homebase website, which looks like my version:

 

RustoleumDarkGreen.jpg.12025e99fdf3569bb3ec42f9612c060f.jpg

 

 

That does look very different to the link Chris found. Much more in keeping with the descriptions of the blue/green.

 

Don

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7 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Very logical, but the problem is that the colour the models have been painted in uses a lighter medium brown,  and nothing like chocolate. Possibly they tried chocolate, but it looked too dark (not enough distinction from the black?), so they used something lighter.

 

 

Sorry Miss P that link does not work.  Here are some interesting others:

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/r4sbS987P26a69YS7

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/xhnXwQ8JDJAMnCin9

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On 23/07/2019 at 00:17, Brassey said:

 

Sorry Miss P that link does not work.

 

My browser has no problem with it.

1157.jpg.983bf6630cdb9d34a5f179abc4bea536.jpg

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I noticed that the Railmatch green I'm using - and now the examples posted in thread,

eg.

On 19/07/2019 at 19:44, ChrisN said:

Mike,

Is it this?  If so it is just what I need.

 

and

 

On 22/07/2019 at 13:47, MikeOxon said:

 

Just found the following image on the Homebase website, which looks like my version:

 

 

All look extremely close to "British Racing Green", as the examples in these photos:

 

ebay117915.jpg

 

ebay141519542748765.jpg

 

I think the difference in shade between those is down to overall lighting / image brightness & all the greens are very close?

 

I wonder if someone actually copied that basic colour for railway use, it's been used in motor racing since the early 1900s...

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, RobjUK said:

I wonder if someone actually copied that basic colour for railway use, it's been used in motor racing since the early 1900s...

Freightliner locos are painted British racing green. Does that count?

 

Dark greens like these were very common in Victorian and Edwardian times, as the paint was hard wearing and the dark shade hid the dirt. Half of Victorian Britain was painted various shade of dark green, rather than it being something specific to the railways. It looks nice on a loco, but I don't think I'd paint my dining room that colour.....

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