Left Hand Running and Signals

[unclebobkt]

      Don't forget that the Midland also had RH drive locomotives.  ... .

 

       As did the G&SWR.,  which was one of the reasons why, when the GWR. handed-over a large number of its 0-6-0 tender engines to the ROD. during the 1914-'19. War, the GWR. footplate crews were so happy to accept the G&SWR. replacements.

 

     

[DavidLong]

A completely basic question. If, as is usual, signals are placed on the left of the track, would a railway company have its drivers stand on the right?

 

David

[Gwiwer]

A perfectly reasonable question and one which perhaps defies a logical answer.

 

Railway signalling goes back to the days when "cabs" were open footplates and drivers had virtually unrestricted vision.  Signallers used flags or lamps and might be stood anywhere.  The twin needs of optimum driving position and safety in signalling have evolved hand in hand.  British practice has often been to have left-hand driving positions with left-hand side signals but not by any means exclusively so.

 

Where I now live our suburban rail network operates three types of rolling stock; two have left-hand drive positions and one has a central driving position.  Signals and driver mirror / monitors for one-person operation have to be sited accordingly and the centre-position stock, which forms around 40% of the total fleet, cannot operate over half the network because it differs so fundamentally.  Neither is it cost-effective to reconfigure every signal and mirror or the driver's cabs to conform.  Impasse.

[The Stationmaster]

A completely basic question. If, as is usual, signals are placed on the left of the track, would a railway company have its drivers stand on the right?

 

David

I suspect it might originally have stemmed from road practice which introduced left hand running on the railway therefore the Driver was put on the right to give him a better view of the opposite line etc (but that could be a load of cobblers of course!).  However the big advantage of having the Driver on the right, especially as engines got bigger and more powerful and train weights increased, was that it put the Fireman on the left side.  The big advantage of having the Fireman on the left was that it was ideally suited to firing right-handed and most people are, of course, right handed.

 

One reason the 'Britannias', in particular, weren't welcomed on the Western was because they were awkward to fire right handed apart from the fact that Drivers had to more or less relearn the road anyway because they were now on the left and also had a big firebox and boiler to further reduce their view towards the right.  But a number of Drivers did get very shirty with Firemen who couldn't adjust to left handed firing apart from the problem with the position of the blower handle which also caused occasional excitement and a sharp exchange of words across the footplate.

[bobthesod4479]

Tall signals.

IIRC, and 65yrs ago is a rather long time, i lived in Mildmay Park North London, not that far from the underbridge of the NLR. From what my father said i was saved from a very early demise several times when i heard the whistle and leant out of the first storey window to look at the engine. But i digress.

I am certain that i read somewhere that stretch of the line had the tallest signals on the whole of BR. They seemed,to me, to go up forever, it may well have had something to do with the amount of bridges along that piece of line.

Can anyone confirm this?

[brianusa]

Interesting article.  I think most of us got our signalling info from Hornby catalogues and pictures of layouts,  I did and like most train spotters, had an inkling of what they were supposed to do with the limited variety available.  We really never knew the nitty gritty of signalling which has been discussed here but were happy enough in our ignorance.

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

Tall signals.

IIRC, and 65yrs ago is a rather long time, i lived in Mildmay Park North London, not that far from the underbridge of the NLR. From what my father said i was saved from a very early demise several times when i heard the whistle and leant out of the first storey window to look at the engine. But i digress.

I am certain that i read somewhere that stretch of the line had the tallest signals on the whole of BR. They seemed,to me, to go up forever, it may well have had something to do with the amount of bridges along that piece of line.

Can anyone confirm this?

There were some very tall signals in various places on the North London Line and on round to Kew.  But whether they were the tallest signals on the whole of Br is a completely different matter as there were plenty of 60-65 feet tall signals around at one time and 70 feet tall was not unknown.

[Reorte]

The big advantage of having the Fireman on the left was that it was ideally suited to firing right-handed and most people are, of course, right handed.

Would left-handed fireman have been in demand then on LHD railways? Left-handed miners used to be able to get paid a bit more in the days of hand-drilling (easy enough to hit a drill rod on the right hand side of a tunnel if you're right handed, not quite as easy on the left).

[unclebobkt]

      I suspect it might originally have stemmed from road practice which introduced left hand running on the railway therefore the Driver was put on the right to give him a better view of the opposite line etc (but that could be a load of cobblers of course!).  However the big advantage of having the Driver on the right, especially as engines got bigger and more powerful and train weights increased, was that it put the Fireman on the left side.  The big advantage of having the Fireman on the left was that it was ideally suited to firing right-handed and most people are, of course, right handed.

 

 

      I suspect that many of the railways' practices stemmed from the pre-railways' & mail-coaching days when, from the pictures that I've seen of the olde & mail-coaches, the driver sat on the RIGHT hand side of his coach - the better, as Stationmaster noted, to catch sight of any approaching traffic.

 

  As for the olde-times' & hand-signalmen standing on the LEFT it was logical from the safety point-of-view when one remembers that Stephenson originally laid his double-track lines with a gap of just 4ft. 08ins. between the two & inner lines - the logic being that extra-wide loads could be carried in trucks occupying the two & centre tracks, (or so I've read.),. 

  Remember, too, that at the opening of the Stockton & Darlington Railway the crippled MP. for Liverpool, Huskinson,  was killed by an approaching train as he did not know where to stand and by the time that he realized his handicap made it too late for him to get-out of the way.  Thus standing on the LHS., and obviously well-removed from the tracks,  was clearly a much safer option for the hand signalmen of those times!

  Then it would seem logical, and something with which the drivers were familiar, that when semaphore signals replaced the hand-sgnalmen the semaphores should be sited on the LHS..

 

      

[billbedford]

Can someone explain why, while most pre-grouping English companies built right-hand locos, almost all locos built for Scottish companies where left-hand drive.

[LMS2968]

      I suspect that many of the railways' practices stemmed from the pre-railways' & mail-coaching days when, from the pictures that I've seen of the olde & mail-coaches, the driver sat on the RIGHT hand side of his coach - the better, as Stationmaster noted, to catch sight of any approaching traffic.

 

  As for the olde-times' & hand-signalmen standing on the LEFT it was logical from the safety point-of-view when one remembers that Stephenson originally laid his double-track lines with a gap of just 4ft. 08ins. between the two & inner lines - the logic being that extra-wide loads could be carried in trucks occupying the two & centre tracks, (or so I've read.),. 

  Remember, too, that at the opening of the Stockton & Darlington Railway the crippled MP. for Liverpool, Huskinson,  was killed by an approaching train as he did not know where to stand and by the time that he realized his handicap made it too late for him to get-out of the way.  Thus standing on the LHS., and obviously well-removed from the tracks,  was clearly a much safer option for the hand signalmen of those times!

  Then it would seem logical, and something with which the drivers were familiar, that when semaphore signals replaced the hand-sgnalmen the semaphores should be sited on the LHS..

 

      

I hate to say this, bu it was at the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway that William Huskinson was run down, probably by 'Rocket' (although others report differently) at Parkside. The L&MR placed a  still-extant memorial there in his honour, the plaque reading:

THIS TABLET

A tribute of personal respect and affection

Has been placed here to mark the spot where on the

15th of Sept 1830 the day of the opening of this rail road

THE RIGHT HONABLE WILLIAM HUSKISSON M.P.

Singled out by the decree of an inscrutable providence from

The midst of the distinguished multitude that surrounded him.

In the full pride of his talents and the perfection of his

Usefulness met with the accident that occasioned his death;

Which deprived England of an illustrious statesman and

Liverpool of its most honored representative which changed

A moment of the noblest exultation and triumph that science and

Genius had ever achieved into one of desolation and mourning;

And striking terror into the hearts of assembled thousands,

Brought home to every ###### the forgotten truth that

“IN THE MIDST OF LIFE WE ARE IN DEATH.”

 

[The Stationmaster]

Of course Mr Brunel got it right and from the start put an interval of 6ft between adjoining running lines.  This in turn led to an even larger interval between station platforms when the gauge was narrowed and the platforms stayed in their original position - leaving plenty of room to site signals in the 6ft.

 

However it should not be overlooked that the GWR was very much a tank engine railway and of course on a tank engine going bunker first the Driver was on the left

[jamie92208]

Being a Midland modeller I can also give an example of a signal post that had arms facing in different directions due to sighting problems.  At Long Preston the down line towards Settle junction was on a right hand curve but the down starter was placed normally on the left had side of the track just beyond the signal box.  The post also had an upper am that faced north and was the up home positioned so that the driver of an approaching southbound train, when most locos were RH drive could see it easily as he approached the station.  In the mid 1950's the Up home was  placed on it's own post on the left hand side of the up line as by then many of the locos were LH drive.   The signal often attracted comment at exhibitions.

 

Jamie

[unclebobkt]

I hate to say this, bu it was at the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway that William Huskinson was run down, probably by 'Rocket' (although others report differently) at Parkside. The L&MR placed a  still-extant memorial there in his honour, the plaque reading:

THIS TABLET

A tribute of personal respect and affection

Has been placed here to mark the spot where on the

15th of Sept 1830 the day of the opening of this rail road

THE RIGHT HONABLE WILLIAM HUSKISSON M.P.

Singled out by the decree of an inscrutable providence from

The midst of the distinguished multitude that surrounded him.

In the full pride of his talents and the perfection of his

Usefulness met with the accident that occasioned his death;

Which deprived England of an illustrious statesman and

Liverpool of its most honored representative which changed

A moment of the noblest exultation and triumph that science and

Genius had ever achieved into one of desolation and mourning;

And striking terror into the hearts of assembled thousands,

Brought home to every ###### the forgotten truth that

“IN THE MIDST OF LIFE WE ARE IN DEATH.”

 

 

I hate to say this, bu it was at the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway that William Huskinson was run down, probably by 'Rocket' (although others report differently) at Parkside. The L&MR placed a  still-extant memorial there in his honour, the plaque reading:

THIS TABLET

A tribute of personal respect and affection

Has been placed here to mark the spot where on the

15th of Sept 1830 the day of the opening of this rail road

THE RIGHT HONABLE WILLIAM HUSKISSON M.P.

Singled out by the decree of an inscrutable providence from

The midst of the distinguished multitude that surrounded him.

In the full pride of his talents and the perfection of his

Usefulness met with the accident that occasioned his death;

Which deprived England of an illustrious statesman and

Liverpool of its most honored representative which changed

A moment of the noblest exultation and triumph that science and

Genius had ever achieved into one of desolation and mourning;

And striking terror into the hearts of assembled thousands,

Brought home to every ###### the forgotten truth that

“IN THE MIDST OF LIFE WE ARE IN DEATH.”

 

 

       LMS2968.,

 

      Thank you for your correction - appreciated.

  I must allow that when I wrote '... the Stockton to Darlington ... .'  I did wonder why a L'pool. MP. should be attending - but didn't bother to check. 

  Just goes to shew that one shouldn't rely-on one's memory but check facts first before applying finger to key!