RMweb Gold tarifa Posted July 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 3, 2015 It could be something to do with the continuous rail construction, when the steel expands there is nowhere for it to go so it buckles. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 A semi-empirical equation was developed by Prud'homme of SNCF to describe the maximum permitted lateral load that a vehicle could safely impart of a track. Prudhomme? I thought he was running the Tour du France, must be a busy guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Just to prove that it's not just UK railways that suffer, here's a piece from France's Fr3 dated 29/6/2015:- From Fr3? It would appear the biggest difference is the French media have a better understanding of the laws of nature, or that railways aren't somehow exempt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 3, 2015 It is a very British thing to wail about how terrible things are here and imagine that everything works splendidly everywhere else in the world. You cannot alter the simple science of thermal expansion and contraction. Where you have a stable environment then you can stress the rails for whatever temperature you like but in European countries with a major temperature swing across the seasons from significantly sub-zero to rail temperatures of 50C then swell and contraction is inevitable and we just have to accept that. There are some mitigation measures as offered here but ultimately any long bit of steel or any other metal will expand when hot. Don't worry JJB - it would seem, according to 'The Daily Telegraph' that Mr Canute, the current Transport Minister, has instructed the railway industry to 'do much better' and in some respects that seems to mean don't impose heat related TROSs. No doubt the Minister will accept full responsibility if anyone with a hand in the the industry (guess who I might be thinking of ) instructs the Drivers of his trains to carry on at full speed and steer them around any buckles in the track. However in all fairness I understand that on the hottest day this week VTEC cancelled 10 trains in each direction on the ECML. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted July 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2015 The bearded one is a living saint!! Reminds me of a government department that really could not understand that there were certain practical difficulties in their plan to require a certain category of enclosed space to be built to be gas tight simultaneously as being ventilated with outside air at 30 air changes an hour and refused to consider that what they really meant was that their ventilation arrangements were to be independent and separate from adjacent spaces........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted July 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 3, 2015 I remember a buckled rail at Sandy in about 71/72. on the CWR. Luckily the only serious injury was to the chef in the kitchen car from hot fat. Picture courtesy of Ivor Walton Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I remember a buckled rail at Sandy in about 71/72. on the CWR. Luckily the only serious injury was to the chef in the kitchen car from hot fat. Image15 - Copy.jpg Picture courtesy of Ivor Walton That was a bad week, according to Wikipedia:- " June 10, 1969 – United Kingdom – A freight train is derailed at Lichfield, Staffordshire due to heat-buckled track.[61] July 13, 1969 – United Kingdom – An express passenger train is derailed at Somerton, Somerset due to heat-buckled track.[61] July 15, 1969 – United Kingdom – A freight train is derailed at Lamington, Scotland due to heat-buckled track.[61] July 23, 1969 – United Kingdom – An express passenger train is derailed at Sandy, Bedfordshire due to heat-buckled track.[61]" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted July 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 3, 2015 That was a bad week, according to Wikipedia:- " June 10, 1969 – United Kingdom – A freight train is derailed at Lichfield, Staffordshire due to heat-buckled track.[61] July 13, 1969 – United Kingdom – An express passenger train is derailed at Somerton, Somerset due to heat-buckled track.[61] July 15, 1969 – United Kingdom – A freight train is derailed at Lamington, Scotland due to heat-buckled track.[61] July 23, 1969 – United Kingdom – An express passenger train is derailed at Sandy, Bedfordshire due to heat-buckled track.[61]" 1969 - Blimey I was younger than I thought ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2015 The only perception problem here is that which causes otherwise sensible people to slavishly believe that unless any person with even the most minimal accountability for anything (real or imagined) is living in continual state of fear of "what if" and then correspondingly takes that "caution" into everything they do - work related and otherwise - then death and destruction will abound. I completely agree with the sentiment but there are times when caution is entirely justified, and steel rails and and temperatures well outside their expected range are one of those areas (and there are enough historical demonstrations of the effects). Going slightly off-topic but still very tenously related (i.e. transport disruption) I've not seen the gritters on the roads yet laying down rock dust, which sometimes happens when it gets hot. I've always found it slightly amusing seeing them in the summer (even if the reason for them being out is perfectly sensible). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2015 Don't worry JJB - it would seem, according to 'The Daily Telegraph' that Mr Canute, the current Transport Minister, has instructed the railway industry to 'do much better' and in some respects that seems to mean don't impose heat related TROSs. No doubt the Minister will accept full responsibility if anyone with a hand in the the industry (guess who I might be thinking of ) instructs the Drivers of his trains to carry on at full speed and steer them around any buckles in the track. However in all fairness I understand that on the hottest day this week VTEC cancelled 10 trains in each direction on the ECML. There does seem to be a strange idea among some that everything can be perfect and trouble-free in all conditions these days and that someone simply isn't doing their job properly if it isn't. Obviously people try to make things more reliable but where did this idea that only 100% reliablity is acceptable come from? Seems a bit divorced from the real world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 It could be something to do with the continuous rail construction, when the steel expands there is nowhere for it to go so it buckles. Mike CWR has these types of expansion joints: Thanks to and © wilkipedia Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 There does seem to be a strange idea among some that everything can be perfect and trouble-free in all conditions these days and that someone simply isn't doing their job properly if it isn't. Obviously people try to make things more reliable but where did this idea that only 100% reliablity is acceptable come from? Seems a bit divorced from the real world. Strangely enough, and without disclosing names of companies involved (my employer won't let me), I work for a company contracted with London Underground. TfL/LU pay us for maintaining certain equipment that is guaranteed to be 100%. So if a Station Supervisor logs a fault on this equipment with his Fault Reporting Centre (FRC), we automatically get a reduction of payment for that month. In addition we have an SLA (Service Level Agreement) which stipulates both an attendance and a fix within a certain time, otherwise there are hefty fines per minute to be paid. Not forgetting of course a staion closure, or even worse, a line closure, which bring in stupendously massive fines! The mentality of work is therefore aligned to "must close the job" as the 1st priority, regardless of the ethos of the engineer involved, and the complany looks to find any excuse for blame such as NFF (No Fault Found) or tries to blame the useage of the equipment as being incorrect by LU. In this way the original fault log by the SS does not incur a fine! PPP,, thanks to 2Jags, seems to have welded this in place! Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted July 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2015 Going slightly off-topic but still very tenously related (i.e. transport disruption) I've not seen the gritters on the roads yet laying down rock dust, which sometimes happens when it gets hot. I've always found it slightly amusing seeing them in the summer (even if the reason for them being out is perfectly sensible). My italics - I did have a cab ride in a gritter lorry on the A11 one summer when I was a kid. It was a brand new one being run in and my Grandad's colleague was driving it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2015 Strangely enough, and without disclosing names of companies involved (my employer won't let me), I work for a company contracted with London Underground. TfL/LU pay us for maintaining certain equipment that is guaranteed to be 100%. So if a Station Supervisor logs a fault on this equipment with his Fault Reporting Centre (FRC), we automatically get a reduction of payment for that month. Whilst I suppose such an attitude at least puts pressure on to get things working (and heaven knows that I'm no saint there, I work better with a bit of pressure put on me externally) it seems to end up with an attitude that 100% is actually possible (and what's needed to get as close to it as possible is desirable to the exclusion of everything else). I can't imagine that I'd last long in such a job I appear to exist in a strange world somewhere in between little tolerance for excuses (if my boss called me hypocritcal there then, well, I probably couldn't argue too hard) and an attitude of "well, stuff happens." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Here is an interesting article from Volpe - The National Transportation Systems Center on the subject of Track Buckling Research. The term “Rail Neutral Temperature” is a “key” - it seems routine to lay track anchoring the rail at a neutral temperature of 95 - 110f. Anyway read on, I’m not going to re-write it... http://www.volpe.dot.gov/infrastructure-systems-and-technology/structures-and-dynamics/track-buckling-research Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted July 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 4, 2015 Yesterday when trying to cool down with a soft ice cream, a bit of a filling fell off one of my teeth! Perhaps it was caused by the high temperiture expanding the filling and the ice cream cooling it quickly? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 On a different weather related railway issue I noticed our resident fleet of ATW Class 158s were making a lot more noise during the very hot weather, with an additional "howling" sound over the usual engine turbocharger whistle and torque-converter whining noises they usually make when accelerating away from Fairbourne. I know in the past the 158 has suffered from problems with the heat but I've never heard this kind of racket before. Strangely it's disappeared since the local weather has cooled down a bit, so I'm wondering if it was heat related? Anyone familiar with the ATW Class 158 fleet know what the noise was? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted July 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 4, 2015 On a different weather related railway issue I noticed our resident fleet of ATW Class 158s were making a lot more noise during the very hot weather, with an additional "howling" sound over the usual engine turbocharger whistle and torque-converter whining noises they usually make when accelerating away from Fairbourne. I know in the past the 158 has suffered from problems with the heat but I've never heard this kind of racket before. Strangely it's disappeared since the local weather has cooled down a bit, so I'm wondering if it was heat related? Anyone familiar with the ATW Class 158 fleet know what the noise was? Do you think the extra noise was from the air conditioning unit working harder than usual? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Strangely enough, and without disclosing names of companies involved (my employer won't let me), I work for a company contracted with London Underground. TfL/LU pay us for maintaining certain equipment that is guaranteed to be 100%. So if a Station Supervisor logs a fault on this equipment with his Fault Reporting Centre (FRC), we automatically get a reduction of payment for that month. In addition we have an SLA (Service Level Agreement) which stipulates both an attendance and a fix within a certain time, otherwise there are hefty fines per minute to be paid. Not forgetting of course a staion closure, or even worse, a line closure, which bring in stupendously massive fines! The mentality of work is therefore aligned to "must close the job" as the 1st priority, regardless of the ethos of the engineer involved, and the complany looks to find any excuse for blame such as NFF (No Fault Found) or tries to blame the useage of the equipment as being incorrect by LU. In this way the original fault log by the SS does not incur a fine! PPP,, thanks to 2Jags, seems to have welded this in place! Stewart This describes a SLA fairly standard to most industries now. There are unintended consequences, for sure, but what is your alternative? Many variations on this have been tried in the past, and none have been as successful in driving punctuality and reliability. If you allow, say, a 98% target, the debate just moves from the first few weeks when the target is missed. Only a fully blown "alliance" arrangement, where benefits and penalties are shared can theoretically overcome this, but the original PPP contracts allowed for this, and TfL/Underground never seemed to get any benefits.....Alliancing only seems to work well when both parties have a contribution to make, as in the NR/TOC alliances, but not in a one-sided customer/contractor continuous situation, as opposed to fixed outcome, fixed duration projects, where it has worked well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted July 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2015 Fundamentally in any relationship involving contracts each party wants to maximise benefit to their advantage, which generally means one side wants to pay as little as possible whilst getting the best possible service and on the other meeting contractual requirements whilst making as much as they can. That makes it sound a bit dog eat dog but in practice relationships can and do work well provided you appreciate that underpinning the relationship are certain business drivers. A contractor won't last long if they get a reputation for shoddy work, poor performance or not delivering what was contracted with the result it all ends up with legal departments. Equally if an organisation gets a reputation for being too ruthless, slow payment etc then they will find that the costs they face for such services go up and many potential providers will just not bid for work. Normally where it all goes horribly wrong in my experience is in scoping out the contract and people thinking they've bought X whilst the provider knows they've bought Y and knows that there will be plenty of scope for variation orders. I've seen a lot of contractors pilloried for ripping their clients off when in fact they'd supplied what they were contracted to supply and the variation orders were the result of a poor set up on the purchasers side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Do you think the extra noise was from the air conditioning unit working harder than usual? I must admit that was my first thought, although the noise was so loud I could still hear it as the train crossed Barmouth Bridge about a mile away across the marshes from where I live, so if it was the air-con, it must have been being on the verge of destruction! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted July 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2015 Just wondered, as yesterday evening I travelled from Newcastle to York on a Trans Pennine 185 which was making a very loud 'roaring' sound which I'd not heard from one of those before (at first thought it was the 'compressor speed up' to build air) when I got on, and was still doing it when I got off again but not audible inside the train - I concluded it was connected with the air con! I think different 158 fleets have different kinds of air con equipment nowadays having had various refurbishments over the years, but at one time the noise was very noticeable on some of them from above the vestibules (over the doors) when the air con kicked in. Does sound a bit extreme though from what you describe! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 The reason you don't remember that noise is that the original 158 aircon usually failed in hot weather from my reccolection! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 The reason you don't remember that noise is that the original 158 aircon usually failed in hot weather from my reccolection! But at least during the design process someone at BREL had enough nous to include a few windows which could be opened in the event of such failure. Such creative thinking is totally missing on almost all modern multiple units - I had to endure a journey from Glasgow to Aberdeen last Wednesday on a 170 with no air con. Not pleasant! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I believe the 170s have two separate aircon modules, one above each pair of doors. So in theory a total loss of aircon is less likely than on a 158. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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