Passenger trains entering terminal platforms

[RRU]

Can anyone clarify the regulations regarding passenger trains entering terminal or partially occupied platforms?

 

I am sure I have seen a quote that a two minute hold at the home signal was required, but I have never been on a train that has been held outside the station when entering a terminal platform, right back to the 1950`s

[Mike Storey]

What period and region are you modelling?

 

As a general rule, by the 1970's at least, there was no requirement to be held outside, so long as the speed of the train had been reduced to that required, which the signalling would normally have made happen by using caution signals on the approach. In many signalling arrangements using MAS or later, the signals would utilise approach control, meaning that a proceed aspect would not be shown until a minimum time had passed since the train passed the berthing track circuit of the preceding signal (i.e. the time allowed for the train to be moving at a maximum speed sufficient to be able to stop). That could be the two minutes you have heard about, but it was not a standard time, depending on the local layout.

 

Likewise, if a train approached the signal too fast, the signal would not change to proceed (whether a yellow or a "calling on" indication, where another train already occupied part of the platform for example), and the train would have to stop until the signal timed out - this was normally set at two minutes from occupation of the track circuit and could well be the situation that you have heard about.

 

However, there were many variations on this depending on when and where you are modelling, especially in semaphore/colour light signalling where absolute block was still being used, but also in some of the earlier MAS re-signalling (pre=1960's), hence my initial question. There are others on this forum better qualified than me to answer the question regarding earlier signalling arrangements.

[big jim]

When i saw this thread and author the first thing i thought was 'i don't remember writing this at 00:40 this morning' and the second thing was 'surely i should know about this anyway' as its my job!

 

On stuff ive driven its always been straight in to an unoccupied platform, marylebone for example you can come in on greens right up to the final signal that will be yellow with a platform indication however some terminus' have approach release signals that pull off when you get near them even if the platfrom is empty, aylesbury vale parkway for example

 

If the platform is occupied then you will most likely be bought almost to a stop then 'called on' with position lights/sub signal/calling on arm to proceed at caution onto traffic

 

'The original' big jim (with a space!)

[RRU]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I am modelling the 1970s with three aspect colour light signalling.

[bécasse]

In the 1970s, trains approaching an unoccupied platform in a MAS area would have a green. It's release from red might have been approach-controlled depending on local S&T practice, particularly if there was a 15 or 20 mph speed restriction over the throat P&C. If the platform concerned was partially occupied the train would have a yellow light within the Southern Region and a red light with a calling on aspect elsewhere, normally approach-controlled.

 

National S&T policy started to be imposed in the mid/late-1960s but it took some years for local practices to be eliminated even for new schemes, and existing ones were rarely changed unless subject to major alterations. By the mid-1970s new schemes generally followed national practice.

 

The use of yellow rather than green for trains approaching an unoccupied platform was only implemented (slowly) post-Moorgate. It was the late-1970s before it became the norm and the change was made even if a scheme was otherwise unaltered.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Also, if there is a requirement for more than one route towards a terminal platform, a Standard Route Indicator is to be provided, NOT a Junction Indicator. If there are more than one shunt route towards a terminal platform, a Miniature Route Indicator would be provided.

 

In terms of controls, depending on the approach speed, the signal could be approached controlled, but since the Moorgate crash, as identified by others, a signal leading into a terminal platform can only show a caution aspect as a main proceed aspect. If the platform is occupied, the route into it could be provided with a position lights (but only if fitted).

 

Also, Lime Street Controls could be fitted, this is where a route into an occupied platform is only set if their is space in the platform for the train requiring entry. This is provided by measuring track circuits as the berths for the approach signal, which match the length of the track circuits in the platforms.

 

Simon

[phil-b259]

 

Also, Lime Street Controls could be fitted, this is where a route into an occupied platform is only set if their is space in the platform for the train requiring entry. This is provided by measuring track circuits as the berths for the approach signal, which match the length of the track circuits in the platforms.

 

Simon

 

We could do with that at Brighton at times - many a signalman has tried to route an 8 car incoming train onto another 8 car sat in the platform (16 cars won't fit into a 12 car platform however much you try).

[LNERGE]

I think having a green into an empty platform and a yellow into one that is occupied is a good idea.

[The Stationmaster]

I think having a green into an empty platform and a yellow into one that is occupied is a good idea.

You been reading LMS Signalling Principles?  That was exactly what they did at one time, and they also used a yellow into platforms which were shorter than the longer ones which got a green.

 

Mind you to be honest I'm not at all keen (and I reckon the powers-at-be won't be either) on clearing a main aspect to run into an occupied line.

[Gwiwer]

Entry to a partially-occupied platform road (whether terminal or through) has often been controlled by a subsidiary signal to the main arm / aspect.  The precise form varies by company / region / location / date but can take the form of (for example) a "calling on" arm beneath a regular home signal which was typically red with a large white letter C.  Variants existed with S (shunt) or W (warning) instead of C.  Sometimes a dolly or miniature arm was provided beneath the main arm instead.  In the traffic-light era such moves are typically signalled by position-light aspects beneath the main array or as permitted and agreed locally by the display of a single yellow aspect in the main array.

 

Entry to an unoccupied terminal road is subject to local conditions and agreements but the norm now is for approach-controlled signals to remain at red (and with appropriate prior cautions) until the train speed is proven to be below a set rate at which the aspect will clear to a single yellow.  In earlier times it was the signalman who was responsible for setting the road and "pulling off" when he judged the train was travelling slowly enough if no other approach control method existed.

[big jim]

Not sure the last paragraph is strictly correct, i dont know of any 'aproach release' signals that pull off once speed is proven, they normally pull off as you pass over a block joint on approach the only thing that would prove you were going slow enough on approach would be the TPWS overspeed grids not stopping you and as far as i know these arent linked to the signal pulling off as such, just there to involuntary stop you if you do come at the red too fast

[beast66606]

Not sure the last paragraph is strictly correct, i dont know of any 'aproach release' signals that pull off once speed is proven, they normally pull off as you pass over a block joint on approach the only thing that would prove you were going slow enough on approach would be the TPWS overspeed grids not stopping you and as far as i know these arent linked to the signal pulling off as such, just there to involuntary stop you if you do come at the red too fast

 

Timing relays between two consecutive tracks, if you crossed the second joint too quickly the signal wouldn't clear, in semaphore areas the berth has to be occupied for a certain time before the lock drops and the signal can be cleared.

 

Lime Street control doesn't always work

[beast66606]

You been reading LMS Signalling Principles?  That was exactly what they did at one time, and they also used a yellow into platforms which were shorter than the longer ones which got a green.

 

Mind you to be honest I'm not at all keen (and I reckon the powers-at-be won't be either) on clearing a main aspect to run into an occupied line.

 

Birkenhead Woodside - a terminus - had a working distant reading onto the buffers, even the BR box which replaced the Saxby cabin replicated this - thus giving a green for trains arriving at the main platforms. (which had to be clear of course!)

[big jim]

Timing relays between two consecutive tracks, if you crossed the second joint too quickly the signal wouldn't clear, in semaphore areas the berth has to be occupied for a certain time before the lock drops and the signal can be cleared.

 

Lime Street control doesn't always work

Ah yes, thinking about it i have heard of that in semaphore areas, salop crewe jn's home board is like that

[LNERGE]

I'm away from my computer for a while. I have some paperwork on Marylebone showing yellow into an occupied platform and green into a clear. I?'ll post it when I get at home.

[leopardml2341]

Timing relays between two consecutive tracks, if you crossed the second joint too quickly the signal wouldn't clear[/url]

Memory may be playing tricks, but is (was) the approach to the Scarborough bays at York controlled in that way. I travelled daily in 2000/1.

[The Stationmaster]

Birkenhead Woodside - a terminus - had a working distant reading onto the buffers, even the BR box which replaced the Saxby cabin replicated this - thus giving a green for trains arriving at the main platforms. (which had to be clear of course!)

The LMS and successor Region always seemed quite happy with worked distant signals at termini whereas the GWR went of the idea by, seemingly, the 1930s and the successor Region weren't at all keen on it.  It is an important thing to remember that Distant signal practice not only varied between Companies but continued to vary between BR regions as far as semaphore signals were concerned.

 

My local branch terminus tells the story quite well - following the closure of a nearby gate 'box (although it was also a block post, and remained as such,  when in switch, long after the level crossing had gone) there was a Fixed Distant (lattice post an' all), in 1961 when the branch was singled it was replaced by a colour light Fixed Distant which survived various changes to the colour light 'Home Signal' for over 50 years until this year when both it and the 'Home Signal' were replaced by a retro reflective Fixed Distant sign - at the site of the 'Home Signal'.  Semaphore signal to colour light and then to a noticeboard in the space of 50 years of, hmm, 'improvement'.