Traffic between Thornton Yard (Fife) and England / Wales

[Dungrange]

In his book Railway Freight Operations (Ian Allan, 1999), Paul Shannon indicates that a flow of starch from Trafford Park to Thornton was an early user of the Transrail Enterpise network in 1994.  I assume that this flow travels via Warrington, Carlisle and Mossend.  Is this flow still running, what type and how many wagons are / were used, how frequently does this flow make use of rail and who is the end customer?  Is this starch used in the production of paper: it’s the only potential user that I can think of in this area?

 

I’m also looking to identify any other recent / current flows between Fife and locations South of the Scottish Border, especially those that are or could be regularly conveyed by the ‘Enterprise’ network.  My ultimate aim is to identify a plausible consist for a Carlisle to Millerhill service if the Waverley Route had remained open, instead of closing in 1969.

['CHARD]

'Plausibly,' if it were me, I would be allowing certain other 'assumptions' to come into play (otherwise the Waverley route's pickings will remain thin).  However, to do this I have to imagine that certain industries are still operating rather than relocating overseas.  

 

So for one, Forbo-Nairn is (in my world) still a Kirkcaldy-based volume-producer of flooring and sends wagonload traffic south.  

 

Then I expand the catchment area to include Dundee/ Moray and send distillery products, marmalade and Michelin tyres.

[Fat Controller]

In his book Railway Freight Operations (Ian Allan, 1999), Paul Shannon indicates that a flow of starch from Trafford Park to Thornton was an early user of the Transrail Enterpise network in 1994.  I assume that this flow travels via Warrington, Carlisle and Mossend.  Is this flow still running, what type and how many wagons are / were used, how frequently does this flow make use of rail and who is the end customer?  Is this starch used in the production of paper: it’s the only potential user that I can think of in this area?

 

I’m also looking to identify any other recent / current flows between Fife and locations South of the Scottish Border, especially those that are or could be regularly conveyed by the ‘Enterprise’ network.  My ultimate aim is to identify a plausible consist for a Carlisle to Millerhill service if the Waverley Route had remained open, instead of closing in 1969.

I believe the corn starch traffic from Trafford Park ceased a while ago, when DBS seemed to give up on most wagonload services. It used a combination of four-wheel ( http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/procorpca/h3bc9c196#h3bc9c196) and bogie tanks (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/proctorcerestarpba/h1fbcdec3#h1fbcdec3 ) . You're correct in surmising the stuff was used in paper and board manufacture, specifically as a surface coating, in the same manner as china clay and calcium carbonate slurries.

One traffic you might consider is anthracite and Patent Fuels from South Wales to the area; Scotland seemed to have carried on using coal in quantity, long after the rest of the UK had gone over to gas or other fuels.

[woodenhead]

The traffic from Cerestar ceased a long time ago, the trackbed is a combination of covered over, lifted or truncated now.

 

The only freight traffic emanating from this area is now container borne.

[black and decker boy]

In his book Railway Freight Operations (Ian Allan, 1999), Paul Shannon indicates that a flow of starch from Trafford Park to Thornton was an early user of the Transrail Enterpise network in 1994.  I assume that this flow travels via Warrington, Carlisle and Mossend.  Is this flow still running, what type and how many wagons are / were used, how frequently does this flow make use of rail and who is the end customer?  Is this starch used in the production of paper: it’s the only potential user that I can think of in this area?

 

I’m also looking to identify any other recent / current flows between Fife and locations South of the Scottish Border, especially those that are or could be regularly conveyed by the ‘Enterprise’ network.  My ultimate aim is to identify a plausible consist for a Carlisle to Millerhill service if the Waverley Route had remained open, instead of closing in 1969.

 

 

Back in BR days, you had a variety of traffic to choose from for Fife:

 

China clay in the Tullis Russell blue PGA hoppers

 

Corn starch from Cerestar to Tullis Russell

 

CO2 in TTA tanks to Cameron Bridge

 

Molasses in small TTA tanks to Menstrie

 

 

 

To \ from Edinburgh, you could also run:

 

Household coal in HEA hoppers and FPA flats with Russells containers,

 

Steel pipes on BDA wagons (Teeside to Georgemas Junction)

 

Cement in PCA returning to Oxwellmains

 

MOD traffic to Rosyth

 

Oil \ Fuel traffic from Grangemouth (to Dalston in Cumbria)

 

Automotive transporters (to Bathgate)

 

Staple traffic was coal in \ around Millerhill plus engineers trains & ballast workings to quarries.

 

The Waverley Route would no doubt have supported timber traffic in large volumes as well.

 

Nuclear flasks to \ from Torness

 

 

 

You could also use the route as a diversion to the WCML to Glasgow and so run anything that would normally go to Mossend.

 

 

 

Sadly for current day operations, there is very little variety of freight other than full trainloads and intermodals but wind back a few years and you get much more interesting consists and flows.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[40044]

The Cerestar starch traffic was an early loss to the Enterprise network, happening in about 1999/2000. Wagons used were normally PCAs in the range PR100xx although JBAs in the 113xx range and 7092922xxx JIAs were also used. Flyash from Longannet to Westbury was a regular flow, using standard Blue Circle PCAs.

[Dungrange]

A quick Google search on Cerestar (I wasn’t sure who operated the flow of starch) indicates that they were taken over by Cargill around 2002 and I initially wondered if the loss of this traffic was as a result of that takeover and subsequent reorganisation of the business.  However, in his book Rail freight since 1968: Wagonload (Silver Link Publishing, 2006), Paul Shannon highlights the loss of Cerestar traffic from Trafford Park among others, following Ed Burkhart’s departure from EWS in 1999.  As such, the loss of this traffic to rail probably was around 15 years ago in 1999 / 2000 as indicated by 40044.

 

I don’t dispute that the prospects for railfreight on the Waverley Route in 2015 is slim.  This explains why it is never likely to be reopened along its entire length and why Tweedbank is likely to remain the terminus of the new line.

 

However Edinburgh and Lothians MRC have a layout based on Newcastleton, which is a bit further south.  At exhibitions, this is normally operated using a sequence of 24 trains that operated on the route in the late 1950s.  In general these are based on photographs of prototypical formations found in a number of books.  However, this layout is to be exhibited at an event in Newtongrange in September to ‘celebrate’ the reopening of the new Borders Railway. 

 

As such, the club has been considering operating this as a ‘then and now’ type operating sequence, replacing the last half dozen trains with what could plausibly be seen on the line if the full Waverly Route was being re-opened in September (or if it had never been closed).  As one of the few members of the club with a significant amount of stock from the post-privatisation period, providing these ‘now’ trains will most likely fall to me.  However, a ‘through the ages’ from LNER to present day style of operation has also been discussed.  Therefore, for anyone attending the event in Newtongrange at the start of September, the stock on Newcastleton may be a surprise!

 

With mention of containers above, is that in relation to Trafford Park or Thornton?  I'm assuming that this comment relates to Trafford Park.

 

Is the Longannet to Westbury service still running and does it still use Blue Circle PCA Wagons (of which I have a few)?  If so, is this a Freightliner service, since they have been operating cement trains since 2002, or is it a DBS service?

 

Thanks for the pointers anyway.  I plan on starting a similar thread in relation to traffic to / from Leith to cover the ‘Edinburgh area’.

[woodenhead]

With mention of containers above, is that in relation to Trafford Park or Thornton?  I'm assuming that this comment relates to Trafford Park.

Yes, Trafford Park - the only traffic in and out of that location is now in a container.

[scottishlocos]

Dungrange

 

Hope i can help most of my spotting days from my younger days were in and around Fife from mid 90's to mid 00's

Sadly freight has been decimeted since then with the probable closure of Longannet power station next year will see the end of regular freight to Fife.

A sad end given EWS reopened Thorton Yard as a signing on point it closed after Stirling Alloa route reopened.

 

Trains which ran from Thornton Yard to England and may have used Borders/Carlise Route at this time were as follows

 

Starch from Trafford Park to Auchmuty Paper Mill (this was unloaded into tank trucks at Thornton Yard for onward delivery to Auchmuty)

This train was famous for being short often one or two wagons and the loco was often longer than the train

The line to Auchmuty was famous for the very limited clearance bridge and was used for china clay trains this traffic was lost with the end of speedlink.

Sadly the Auchmuty papermill will also be closed soon.

 

Flyash from Longannet to Westbury cement works this was carried in PCA wagons i think Westbury cement works closed and that was the end of this traffic

These two trains were often combined for the trip to Mossend and in the timetable I am sure it was Longannet to Mossend Enterprise which served Thornton

Also this train ofter ran direct to Mossend running round at Dunfermline Townhill sidings

 

CO2 from Cameron Bridge to Willesden again sometimes the starch wagons were put on this train

 

Coal from Westfield opencast to English power stations.

 

Locos used at this time would have been Motherwell allocated class 37/56 class 60's were also regular and occasionally 47's.

 

As for your Borders Railway model you could have timber traffic originating from in or around your planned layout other freights would have been seen but just passing through

[40044]

Longannet - Westbury ash outlasted the Cerestar traffic, but I'm sure it was gone before FLHH took over the Blue Circle flows. Possibly as a result of the takeover as it didn't run as a trainload, but usually a block of 10-12 PCAs which were trunk hauled on 6V60 Mossend - Newport 'Enterprise'.

[Dungrange]

As for your Borders Railway model you could have timber traffic originating from in or around your planned layout other freights would have been seen but just passing through

 

I agree, although I am trying to ascertain how this could be operated economically.  If there were enough timber loaded to justify block train loads of timber that would be easy.  However, if less than trainload quantities were generated (as I think would be more likely based on other timber loading points), then timber would have to either be collected by an out and back trip working from Carlisle or they would be dropped off and picked up by a daily trunk Enterprise service between Carlisle and Millerhill.  However, for a trunk Enterprise service to operate there would have to be something that was being conveyed to Fife or the Lothians to justify a service.  That is what I was hoping to identify, although it appears that the answer in the last few years would be nothing.

 

Anyway, if we adopt a 'through the ages' approach to running trains, then we can look at some of the pointers from earlier decades, so all responses have been helpful.

[SHerr]

I'm too modelling Fife - although slightly earlier - circa 1986. Most of the freight flows listed above were the inspiration. There is a reference above to Molasses traffic, but I'm fairly sure this went via Stirling and down to Mossend and not through Fife.

 

I have also seen a photo of an ICI Caustic Soda tank/small TTA (similar to Molasses tank) on the Auchmuty branch coupled to a Tullis Russell hopper - I'm amazed nobody has ever done done a resin body/kit for the Bachmann TTA chassis as per the N Gauge society one.

 

I like the sound of a Cerestar PCA - does anybody know what year they started running and whether 1986 is too early?

 

I'm also looking at building one of the Montrose Lime PTA tippers that regularly ran through Fife - anyone got any dimensions? - particularly box sizes. At first they look daunting, but actually only 2 boxes with lots of ribbing - I may come to regret that statement.

[Fat Controller]

I'm too modelling Fife - although slightly earlier - circa 1986. Most of the freight flows listed above were the inspiration. There is a reference above to Molasses traffic, but I'm fairly sure this went via Stirling and down to Mossend and not through Fife.

 

I have also seen a photo of an ICI Caustic Soda tank/small TTA (similar to Molasses tank) on the Auchmuty branch coupled to a Tullis Russell hopper - I'm amazed nobody has ever done done a resin body/kit for the Bachmann TTA chassis as per the N Gauge society one.

 

I like the sound of a Cerestar PCA - does anybody know what year they started running and whether 1986 is too early?

 

I'm also looking at building one of the Montrose Lime PTA tippers that regularly ran through Fife - anyone got any dimensions? - particularly box sizes. At first they look daunting, but actually only 2 boxes with lots of ribbing - I may come to regret that statement.

You could try writing to Thompsons of Prudhoe, who operated the side tippers, and see if they've any gen:- http://thompsonsofprudhoe.com/

[Dungrange]

I'm too modelling Fife - although slightly earlier - circa 1986. Most of the freight flows listed above were the inspiration. There is a reference above to Molasses traffic, but I'm fairly sure this went via Stirling and down to Mossend and not through Fife.

 

I like the sound of a Cerestar PCA - does anybody know what year they started running and whether 1986 is too early?

 

Like you, I also think that the Molasses traffic was routed via Stirling to Mossend.

 

With regards the Cerestar PCA, I am not able to comment on their use in Fife in 1986, but there is a photograph of one such wagon (PR10007) in Cerestar livery in David Larkin's book Working Wagons Volume 4 (1985 - 1992).  The photograph was taken at Manchester Ardwick on 24 October 1988.  The vehicles PR10000 to PR10018 were apparently built in 1976 and used to convey soap powder traffic.  When they switched to conveying Starch must have been sometime between 1976 and 1988.

[bazjones1711]

Like you, I also think that the Molasses traffic was routed via Stirling to Mossend.

 

With regards the Cerestar PCA, I am not able to comment on their use in Fife in 1986, but there is a photograph of one such wagon (PR10007) in Cerestar livery in David Larkin's book Working Wagons Volume 4 (1985 - 1992).  The photograph was taken at Manchester Ardwick on 24 October 1988.  The vehicles PR10000 to PR10018 were apparently built in 1976 and used to convey soap powder traffic.  When they switched to conveying Starch must have been sometime between 1976 and 1988.

My pic of CPC PBA at Thornton junction prob mid 80's

[bazjones1711]

My pic of CPC PBA at Thornton junction prob mid 80's

IMG_20160912_214219.jpg

Amazing what lurks in the bottom drawers , all these years it's been there never thought this pic may come in handy one day !

[scottishlocos]

Guys

 

I had read elsewhere that the starch traffic started after the Auchmuty branch had closed as this is not the case were the PBA's tripped down the branch or unloaded at Thornton?

Can anybody confirm this I have seen many pictures of this branch but none of the trains have these wagons is it possible they were unloaded at Thornton for other non rail connected paper mills

 

Dave

[br2975]

My pic of CPC PBA at Thornton junction prob mid 80's

IMG_20160912_214219.jpg

 

4mm and 7mm scale drawings of these were published in Model Railways during the mid to late 80s.

.

I have a copy somewhere Baz, if the mood ever takes you ?

.

Brian R