Hornby and their 'Electrics'....a change of direction?

[DaveClass47]

Hi everyone 

 

Having seen the newly announced Hornby Class 71 I was excited to see Hornby tackle an electric loco.  One could also argue its a bit of a niche item, with only 24 being built.

 

So, what next?.....the Class 91?  Hornby have just shown us that they are capable of producing locos with a pantograph and not just a funnel!, so this is the moment to politely request a new Class 91 and MK4 DVT from our friends at Hornby?   This loco is more widespread than the niche Class 71 and covers a wider time span, liveries and era.   A much wider market can be tapped into, compared to the shorter lived class 71.

 

I have just emailed them (again) to request such a move, commending them for their efforts on the initial Class 71 design drawings and 3D scanned model.

 

If you read this and feel the same you can if you wish go to the Hornby.com website, go to the contact us section and put in a product suggestion for a new Class 91 and MK4 DVT

 

The 91 is the ONLY East Coast icon not to have received a highly detailed re-tool (others being the A3,A4, Deltic [Bachmann] and HST).

 

Is now the time to strike while Hornby have a taste for producing Electrics! Class 81,86,87,91,92?.....

 

Thanks for reading this.

 

Dave

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Wouldn't you want the mk4 coaches upgraded from train set grade to the standard of the latest Pullman cars as well? Same goes for the mk3s to make a high standard HST formation. The traction alone isn't the whole job.

 

Bachmann have set the benchmark for these unit trains with their Blue Pullman production: both power cars powered, lighting, close coupling system, detail refinement; available as a complete set with no livery matching issues and faff getting the right cars to make the full formation. Those are the iconic complete trains that I would like to buy for my 'ECML through the ages' representation.

[DaveClass47]

Wouldn't you want the mk4 coaches upgraded from train set grade to the standard of the latest Pullman cars as well? Same goes for the mk3s to make a high standard HST formation. The traction alone isn't the whole job.

 

Bachmann have set the benchmark for these unit trains with their Blue Pullman production: both power cars powered, lighting, close coupling system, detail refinement; available as a complete set with no livery matching issues and faff getting the right cars to make the full formation. Those are the iconic complete trains that I would like to buy for my 'ECML through the ages' representation.

Yeah, of course a MK4  upgrade would just be ideal....but first things first...I would just be over the moon to see the loco/trailers done!

 

As for the MK3....in the light of just giving the coach a 'makeover' with tinted glazing I cant see them touching this coach.   They had their chance to upgrade the bogies at the same time, but they're clearly not interested in doing so ;-(

[WDP4D]

You have my full support!

 

I have a list of suggestions for D&E era models so I always email them from time-to-time with my suggestions. The Class 91 is indeed one of them.

 

My suggestions:-

- Class 59

- Class 74

- Class 86

- Class 87

- Class 91

- Class 92

- Mk4 DVT

- U-type Pullman coaches

 

My suggestions (Railroad):-

- Class 89

- Mk4 coaches

 

PS: I've noticed people talking about Hornby doing niche products. After some research (on what they were and why they are termed as such) I felt that the Class 89 could be included in the RailRoad range. Buffer beam detail can be a separate item.

 

The Mk4 coaches in my suggestion are listed under the "Hornby Railroad" range also because, firstly Railroad means the reduced cost thus allowing more people to be able to afford a full rake. Mk4 coaches aren't full of details so being in the Railroad range is OK. They can have metal wheels, flush glazing, lighting kits etc.

 

PPS: LINK TO THE Hornby "CONTACT US" SECTION - http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/contact

[WDP4D]

Wouldn't you want the mk4 coaches upgraded from train set grade to the standard of the latest Pullman cars as well? Same goes for the mk3s to make a high standard HST formation. The traction alone isn't the whole job.

 

 

I would never want the Mk4's to be done to the standard of the Pullman's....frankly because they cannot in my opinion. The Pullman coaches in reality have more detail (external and internal) than a Mk4 which is got more of a smoother surface for high speed runs. I'd be happy if the Mk4's were re-tooled with a better valance and NEM couplings. A simple makeover would suffice. Anything like the Pullmans means not many will be able to afford a full set. The Blue Pullman is of a different league and deserves to have such detailed coaches. If the Mk4's are done in the Railroad range (with details like metal wheels, flush glazing, interiors and NEM couplings) then it will be affordable and it can be sold eith in a pack or 2 packs.

 

As for the Mk3s the bogies probably need an upgrade. The bodies are just fine.

[phil gollin]

I appreciate your wanting more of your preferred items however just bombarding the boards is not really going to convince anyone (much like the NE brigade).  We all know there is a small number of vociferous AC electric and NE supporters.

 

At least you have the Dapol OH catenary coming - THAT is where sales both of the catenary and of the existing models MIGHT  convince manufacturers to change tack (likewise, with the NE modellers with the J15)

 

The Southern fans suffered for ages due to the perceived lack of sales appeal, and it would SEEM to me (with NO actual sales facts) that even now the blue/modern era of EMUs do not sell as well as the green (or even the green with yellow ends).  However the rest of the Southern seems to be selling well, so that success breeds success and this is what the overhead AC and NE crowd need to do.  They need to buy up the FEW new models they get and they need to press for new models WHICH WILL SELL IN LARGE NUMBERS.   The worst thing that they can do (at least with the big manufacturers) is press for uncharismatic niche models.  Go for the ones which will be popular.

 

.

[jjb1970]

The overhead electric that would set pulses racing is a good Class 86, followed closely by a good Class 87. The Heljan 86 was a terrible disappointment and in some respects really wasn't that much of an improvement over the old Hornby version in my view. Yes the chassis was excellent and there were some lovely details (especially the under frame detail) but since the overall shape was wrong the lovely details don't count for that much. And although the pan was better than the old Hornby monstrosity it was still over scale and clumsy looking, destroying the illusion of an 86 in miniature. I know I am like a record with a scratch on this subject but the 86 is like the Class 47 of the 25KV AC system. The Class 87 is only just behind.

[WDP4D]

the 86 is like the Class 47 of the 25KV AC system. The Class 87 is only just behind.

 

I thought I was the only one who felt that....The 87 was probably like the Class 37

 

Share your views on the Heljan Class 86. Maybe Dapol can do the Class 86. A OO gauge one will be more successful than a N gauge one and quite frankly Dapol's N gauge Class 86 was actually more superior than Heljan's OO gauge attempt.

[GordonC]

I have to agree with jjb1970, while I would buy a Class 91, it wouldn't excite me half as much as a Class 86 and/or 87 to modern standards. I just hope Bachmann take the Class 87 into account while they're doing the 87/2 (Class 90).

 

If any electrics are going to sell well and convince manufacturers they're worth producing I'd have to think they'd be WCML ones.

[Karhedron]

Share your views on the Heljan Class 86. Maybe Dapol can do the Class 86. A OO gauge one will be more successful than a N gauge one and quite frankly Dapol's N gauge Class 86 was actually more superior than Heljan's OO gauge attempt.

The sad truth is that although being well received by reviewers, the Dapol class 86 was such a poor seller that even now, it languishes in the bargain bins. Even specials such as the Rail Blue versions and network rail yellows were stuck on shelves. Don't forget that the Dapol 86 was accompanied by new Mk3 coaches and DVT so the WCML was a feasible option (even if the Farish 87 and 90 were ropey).

 

Manufacturers keep saying that AC electrics do not sell well enough to justify further releases. Until that changes, I doubt we will see a new 91. Now it may be a bit chicken-and-egg but if there was really a load of pent-up demand for better AC electrics, why don't detailing packs for these locos sell better as more experienced modellers fettle the existing offerings to make them more acceptable?

[GordonC]

Is there much that can be done with after-market parts to convert the excellent Bachmann 85 into any of the other earlier AC Classes 81-84?

[big jim]

I appreciate your wanting more of your preferred items however just bombarding the boards is not really going to convince anyone

 

Well put, i for one was getting a bit fed up of seeing a "lets email Hornby about a class 91" posts with bold capitals appearing in non related threads

[DaveClass47]

You have my full support!

 

I have a list of suggestions for D&E era models so I always email them from time-to-time with my suggestions. The Class 91 is indeed one of them.

 

My suggestions:-

- Class 59

- Class 74

- Class 86

- Class 87

- Class 91

- Class 92

- Mk4 DVT

- U-type Pullman coaches

 

My suggestions (Railroad):-

- Class 89

- Mk4 coaches

 

PS: I've noticed people talking about Hornby doing niche products. After some research (on what they were and why they are termed as such) I felt that the Class 89 could be included in the RailRoad range. Buffer beam detail can be a separate item.

 

The Mk4 coaches in my suggestion are listed under the "Hornby Railroad" range also because, firstly Railroad means the reduced cost thus allowing more people to be able to afford a full rake. Mk4 coaches aren't full of details so being in the Railroad range is OK. They can have metal wheels, flush glazing, lighting kits etc.

 

PPS: LINK TO THE Hornby "CONTACT US" SECTION - http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/contact

Hi mate,

 

a great list of Electrics on the wish list there....I hope in time we get the lot!

 

As for the MK4, I agree.   The MK4 are 'decent' coaches, but lack some modern refinement, such as NEM sockets and modern bogies.   The shape is well captured by Hornby, so I dont think much needs done to modernise them....unfortunately if they did then the price might go well north of £30 for a coach.

 

Thanks for your support, go forth and spread the word lol.

Dave

[WDP4D]

The sad truth is that although being well received by reviewers, the Dapol class 86 was such a poor seller that even now, it languishes in the bargain bins. Even specials such as the Rail Blue versions and network rail yellows were stuck on shelves. Don't forget that the Dapol 86 was accompanied by new Mk3 coaches and DVT so the WCML was a feasible option (even if the Farish 87 and 90 were ropey).

 

Manufacturers keep saying that AC electrics do not sell well enough to justify further releases. Until that changes, I doubt we will see a new 91. Now it may be a bit chicken-and-egg but if there was really a load of pent-up demand for better AC electrics, why don't detailing packs for these locos sell better as more experienced modellers fettle the existing offerings to make them more acceptable?

Yes but again what you are saying is N gauge, whilst popular it is still different to OO. And the demands for N gauge and OO gauge is different. There is a topic relating to a poll on the Class 92. Most who voted for one have voted for a OO gauge one. Same applies for the Class 91. A OO gauge one is going to have more demand than a N gauge one.

 

I referred to Dapol simply because they have an excellent model which if you compare it to Heljan's OO attempt, was much better. Dapol made a smaller one with better detail and that was the highlight of my post. I know they don't sell well. But how many N gaugers model with OHE layouts?

 

As for detail packs, there are numerous reasons. Not everyone is up for something like that. Not always do you get a complete detail pack for a loco. Sometimes detail packs don't exist.

[DaveClass47]

I appreciate your wanting more of your preferred items however just bombarding the boards is not really going to convince anyone (much like the NE brigade).  We all know there is a small number of vociferous AC electric and NE supporters.

 

At least you have the Dapol OH catenary coming - THAT is where sales both of the catenary and of the existing models MIGHT  convince manufacturers to change tack (likewise, with the NE modellers with the J15)

 

The Southern fans suffered for ages due to the perceived lack of sales appeal, and it would SEEM to me (with NO actual sales facts) that even now the blue/modern era of EMUs do not sell as well as the green (or even the green with yellow ends).  However the rest of the Southern seems to be selling well, so that success breeds success and this is what the overhead AC and NE crowd need to do.  They need to buy up the FEW new models they get and they need to press for new models WHICH WILL SELL IN LARGE NUMBERS.   The worst thing that they can do (at least with the big manufacturers) is press for uncharismatic niche models.  Go for the ones which will be popular.

 

.

Hi, it is not my intention to bombard the boards with this topic.   Apologies if you felt that was the case.

 

I am just very interested and excited to see main stream manufacturers turning their attention to electrics.   Bachmann the 90, Hornby the 71, etc. Also, as you pointed out Dapols new OH catenary coming it might be a great time to expand the electrics range further.   That really is the point of my post.

Well put, i for one was getting a bit fed up of seeing a "lets email Hornby about a class 91" posts with bold capitals appearing in non related threads

no one is forcing you to read them!

[wombatofludham]

The sad truth is that although being well received by reviewers, the Dapol class 86 was such a poor seller that even now, it languishes in the bargain bins. Even specials such as the Rail Blue versions and network rail yellows were stuck on shelves. Don't forget that the Dapol 86 was accompanied by new Mk3 coaches and DVT so the WCML was a feasible option (even if the Farish 87 and 90 were ropey).

 

Manufacturers keep saying that AC electrics do not sell well enough to justify further releases. Until that changes, I doubt we will see a new 91. Now it may be a bit chicken-and-egg but if there was really a load of pent-up demand for better AC electrics, why don't detailing packs for these locos sell better as more experienced modellers fettle the existing offerings to make them more acceptable?

 

We keep hearing "AC electrics don't sell" but the "lack of sales" didn't stop Bachmann committing development funds and a future series of production slots to a new Class 90 despite Hornby having their model in their range.  Either Bachmann are into financial suicide or they must have been much happier with the sales of the Class 85 than those who would slag off AC electrics assume.

 

What will convince many more people to take up AC modelling is some thought about how to give synergy to the models on offer.  Bachmann, Gawd bless'em, dropped the ball by going for a 90 which had a very limited lifespan running alongside their 85.  Now an 86 would have been more sensible, as not only are they still running but they began their long 50 year career running alongside the Class 85 and even alongside green diesels and steam around the Potteries and Manchester, tapping into the so-called "transition era" cash-cow.  You could plan a representative WCML layout around an 85 and an 86 plus some diesels and dmus, it's not going to be easy with an 85 and a 90 with just the Hornby 40 year old 86 to represent the most prolific electric class on the network.

 

That said I'm really pleased Bachmann are doing a 90 as well, which lets face it is slightly more widespread geographically than any Southern steamer or their Lanky tank.

 

 

[Karhedron]

Yes but again what you are saying is N gauge, whilst popular it is still different to OO. And the demands for N gauge and OO gauge is different. There is a topic relating to a poll on the Class 92. Most who voted for one have voted for a OO gauge one. Same applies for the Class 91. A OO gauge one is going to have more demand than a N gauge one.

Up to a point that is true but not entirely. Different demographics apply since N gauge is better for people who want to run long trains in a modest space. While the overall N Gauge market is smaller than 00, it is more skewed towards modern image modelling.

 

I referred to Dapol simply because they have an excellent model which if you compare it to Heljan's OO attempt, was much better. Dapol made a smaller one with better detail and that was the highlight of my post. I know they don't sell well. But how many N gaugers model with OHE layouts?

Not very many (although there are a few good ones out there like Kinlet Wharf). However I don't know many 00 gauge layouts with OHEL either so the same applies.

 

As for detail packs, there are numerous reasons. Not everyone is up for something like that. Not always do you get a complete detail pack for a loco. Sometimes detail packs don't exist.

Not everyone is (I still get nervous when I do simple jobs like renumbering).

 

My point is that it is not simple a case that a good model will always sell. Like Bachmann and Hornby, I am not convinved the demand exists for a big AC electric market. The Heljan 86s were a disappointment but look at good models like the Bachmann Desiro, they have not shifted especially well either and we have had to wait 4 years for a 2nd production run just to get the SWT 450 version.

 

My hunch (and it is just my gut-feeling) is that if there were a latent demand for more AC electrics, we would have seen better sales of the existing good models that are available (even if they are not really sufficient by themselves to create a complete "scene"). Also, I think we would see more OHEL layouts on the exhibition circuit by those modellers who are advanced enough to make a good crack of what is available.

[big jim]

 

 

Dapols new OH catenary coming it might be a great time to expand the electrics range further. That really is the point of my post.

 

no one is forcing you to read them!

Erm yes, you were forcing me to read them, i have a look at a thread i'm interested in and nothing to do with class 91s and low and behold "email Hornby about a class 91"

 

Back on topic though.....

 

The 'new' Dapol ohle, is that new addition to the stuff already out a few years back?

 

I really want OHLE on my layout and have some packs of the original Dapol stuff but have held back adding it to the layout as i would prefer other types such as portals etc

 

The thing with overhead electrics is without the infractructure on the layout it looks wrong unless its an electric loco being used on a drag or a unit being delivered which is when it gets expensive!

 

part of the reason i sold my desiro was the lack of suitable OHLE for my roundy roundy layout, on my previous layout (which id bought the desiro for) id made provisions for the OHLE as it was only a short end to end run and could get away with just using the express stantions

[wombatofludham]

The main reason why the Desiro may not have sold well - and how do we know it's not sold well, apart from a brief spell of discounting it's mostly for sale today at the £149-189 bracket which suggests that apart from Hattons no other retailer is feeling the need to cut prices to shift constipated stock - is there has been hardly any modern standard RTR electrics to run alongside it.  By the time the Dessie was introduced to the WCML most Virgin services were being handled by Pendolinos, and we only have Hornby's semi-trainset model of that in OO (for which additional coaches can be difficult to get hold of and the basic model seems to be difficult to find), plus some residual Class 87 hauled Mk3 stock - and the only OO Class 87 is the Limby effort which was new when Methusulah was in nappies.  Heljan did make a Freightliner Class 86 but you try getting one now.  Hornby's 90 has faults, but could be a placeholder for EWS and Freightliner trafficuntil the Bachmann model arrives sometime in the next Millenium.  Bachmann make a Voyager.  So, what is the point of having a London Midland Dessie if you are going to struggle to get the contemporary rolling stock that runs alongside it?

 

It's the synergy word again and it again shows how not having a consistent base load of contemporaneous models of an equivalent level of standard for those who don't have the time or money to start detailing will make the "oh they don't sell" mantra self fulfilling.  Would Southern modellers be expecting huge sales of just a superbly detailed King Arthur, West Country and a 4-VEP?  Yet everyone seems to think that the Bachmann 85, their proposed 90 and the Desiro should be selling even though the 85 and the Dessie never occupied the same metals in service.

[Karhedron]

The difference is that Hornby's recent SR units like the 2-BIL and 2-HAP have been selling well. And this has been in spite of the fact that we don't have all the units that ran alongside them like the SUBs and CORs.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like OHEL and I have a substantial fleet of vintage 86s, 87s, and 90s to prove it for modelling the WCML circa 1990. I even have an 89 (on test) and an APT (the preserved on Railtour ). But I am not convinced there a large number of modellers out there who share my interest and are just waiting for a critical mass of AC models before jumping in.

 

I could be wrong of course and I hope I am.

[DaveClass47]

Erm yes, you were forcing me to read them, i have a look at a thread i'm interested in and nothing to do with class 91s and low and behold "email Hornby about a class 91"

 

Back on topic though.....

 

The 'new' Dapol ohle, is that new addition to the stuff already out a few years back?

 

I really want OHLE on my layout and have some packs of the original Dapol stuff but have held back adding it to the layout as i would prefer other types such as portals etc

 

The thing with overhead electrics is without the infractructure on the layout it looks wrong unless its an electric loco being used on a drag or a unit being delivered which is when it gets expensive!

 

part of the reason i sold my desiro was the lack of suitable OHLE for my roundy roundy layout, on my previous layout (which id bought the desiro for) id made provisions for the OHLE as it was only a short end to end run and could get away with just using the express stantions

Mmm, Point noted, I have amended posts accordingly and have started another more relevant.   Forgive my over eagerness to get a new 91 etc!

 

However, you dont have to read them 

[woodenhead]

The problem for the manufacturers is that it is difficult for them to thrown it all into one region/era at the same time - the risk is massive and understandably the modellers not interested in said region/era would be up in arms.

 

If Bachmann said this year we are only going to produce stock related to BR Blue WCML producing AC electrics in locomotive and unit form plus lots of Mk2 stock it would be great if you have been waiting all your life for all the stock to be available RTR; but think of the cost to buy it all when it was available, you'd have to be Pete Waterman to be able to afford it all.  

 

So manufacturers have to drip feed the models to ensure a spread across the regions, eras and traction types, looking at not only what would sell but also the likelihood of modellers being able to buy what they are selling so they need to have a mix that not everyone wants so we can all afford to buy the releases we want.

 

It might not be easy being a modeller but I think the manufacturers have it harder picking out the right models at the right time - they don't always get it right and unlike us an unwanted model costs the manufacturer a lot of money.

[Titan]

At least you have the Dapol OH catenary coming - THAT is where sales both of the catenary and of the existing models MIGHT  convince manufacturers to change tack (likewise, with the NE modellers with the J15)

 

 

 

The 'new' Dapol ohle, is that new addition to the stuff already out a few years back?

 

 

I would not hold your hopes up. They have at long last announced some wires, thats all. Unfortunately the pre-production photos show a pretty dreadful attempt.  

[Neil]

I think that there's a fallacy at work here, that revised, more detailed rtr models (in this case a 91) will make for a better layout; that they will be a magic bullet, increasing ones finescale credentials by the mere act of flexing the credit card. If your new and upgraded purchase romps along your layout in the company of mismatched stock, out of period road vehicles, buildings showing fingerprints and glue marks then however lovely the individual loco, carriage or wagon is, it won't improve the look of the whole.  Wombats point about synergy takes us halfway there, but to do justice to a top rank rtr model (or collection of models) the rest of your layout, the bit you build and can't buy, needs to be of a similarly high standard. It's the old adage about chain and week links; a layout will only look as good as its most pants parts.

 

In the specific case of the 91 I was most impressed by this model from the hands of George Dent. It shows what's possible from the current model; it convinces me far more than any model straight out of the box, however current, fine and upgraded it might be. I do wonder if the time spent lobbying for new models might be more productively spent honing skills and making models.

 

Edited to include link I forgot to do earlier.

[DaveClass47]

I think that there's a fallacy at work here, that revised, more detailed rtr models (in this case a 91) will make for a better layout; that they will be a magic bullet, increasing ones finescale credentials by the mere act of flexing the credit card. If your new and upgraded purchase romps along your layout in the company of mismatched stock, out of period road vehicles, building showing fingerprints and glue marks then however lovely the individual loco, carriage or wagon is, it won't improve the look of the whole.  Wombats point about synergy takes us halfway there, but to do justice to a top rank rtr model (or collection of models) the rest of your layout, the bit you build and can't buy, needs to be of a similarly high standard. It's the old adage about chain and week links; a layout will only look as good as its most pants parts.

 

In the specific case of the 91 I was most impressed by this model from the hands of George Dent. It shows what's possible from the current model; it convinces me far more than any model straight out of the box, however current, fine and upgraded it might be. I do wonder if the time spent lobbying for new models might be more productively spent honing skills and making models.

Hi,

 

Have you priced all of the items and equipment, adhesives etc required to produce the upgraded george dent 91?   It is a cracking renovation. But, then add to that Express Models lighting for the loco and its not at all cheap.   Plus, a lot of guys want to 'hone' their skills elsewhere and not hacking away at an expensive model.   The risk of screwing it up and having a awful conversion attempt chugging around your perfect layout wont do anyone any favours.

 

Also, some guys (not me), just like to display their models, not run them.  Or even run them on a club layout.   Sadly, not everyone has the time, money, skills to revise an outdated model to finer standards.  

 

The point about buildings with glue marks and finger prints.... is that directly relevant to having a lovely, accurate, modern tooled loco whizzing around your layout?.... for some modellers the finger printed, glue marked houses at the side of the line might be all they are capable of.   Not everyone is a fine craftsman.  Not every one is of an age where they have the eye sight, nimbleness and dexterity in their hands to produce excellent scenic displays or neatly converted locos. I do however take your point that crappy scenics and glue everywhere doesnt do the RTR model to high standards any justice.

 

In my view, having modern tooled up to date Electrics available to buy RTR is long over due, for years the 'steamies' among the modelling community have been spoiled with their highly detailed locos.   These are truly beautiful and stunning to have, but what about the modern image modeller?...for this hobby to survive we need to start catering more for the modeller who grew up with diesel and electric, not in the steam era.  As with due respect to those who grew up with steam - you are not the future of the hobby.   We need to get younger modellers in to the hobby and therefore new models of locos that ran in the 2000's (and still do run) is where we need to be heading.   Therefore the class 90,91,92 etc are good examples to start with.